Princeton grad applying top schools Forum

[jbagelboy]

Its sad that people on here reduce law school to a signaling credential. No wonder so many people are dissatisfied.

[cavalier1138]

I've personally never understood why people from super elite undergrads want to go to law school but to each their own.

to become lawyers? you can't practice law without a JD. How is this confusing?

He was asking why anybody would want to become a lawyer after graduating from an elite school.

that seems like a really naive question with a tautological answer--why would anyone want to enter any profession? because they want to? how does where you got your B.A. matter? I just really don't understand. There's no opportunity cost question here because the barrier to entry to practice law isn't where you got your bachelors, its whether you have a J.D.

Law school is probably most valuable as a method of signaling your intelligence/work ethic after an unimpressive undergrad.

It's not completely valueless if your undergrad is impressive, but it will make much less of a difference in your ability to get decent employment, find jobs, etc. than it would for someone from Shitty State U with a 3.4.

And frankly, practicing law is shitty for a huge number of people, so if someone already has the "I'm smart" credential and is on a great career path, it's always weird to see them decide to give that up for a profession that makes people miserable

This boggles my mind. If you're not going to law school because you're actually interested in (and heaven forbid, passionate about) the law and/or being a lawyer, then why would you go? And if you didn't go for those reasons, did you literally not meet a single person who did during your academic career?

[jbagelboy]

^thank you.

Trying to prove to people that you're smart is probably the worst reason to go to law school and it's bound to make you unhappy. To paraphrase hegel, without passion or substance there is nothing.

How is a law school even the best way? Why not get an MPhil from Cambridge or an MPP from the Kennedy school or a one year masters in french, if all that matters is the name on your degree? A law degree is so much more limiting and so so much more expensive! (Or if you feel that way about life why not just go to a fancy undergraduate college).

[landshoes]

Spoken like people who can get decent jobs out of undergrad.

I legitimately don't have time to explain signaling to you. Just note that it's not about "feeling" smart or "proving" that you're smart in some useless ego-driven way.

And, since the idea of spending 3 prime earning years and tons of money to follow some kind of passion sounds insane to me, we are not likely to find common ground anyway.

I love law school. However, for someone with a good undergraduate record from a notable school, it isn't hard to replicate the positive parts of law school elsewhere, more cheaply, with substantially less stress.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Except if you want to be a lawyer, of course.

[somethingElse]

This dude has to be trolling with this shit.

[landshoes]

Except if you want to be a lawyer, of course.

Yeah, obviously. But how many 0Ls have any clue what that even means?

Ironically, OP is probably really well situated to know what lawyers do, so I'll stop derailing by arguing the more general point.

Good luck, OP

[WinterComing]

In cases like this, TLS can go a little too far with "softs don't matter," IMHO.

It's true that for most of the T-14, law school admissions is a numbers game and softs matter only a tiny bit at the margins, if at all. A school like Harvard needs to find 600 warm bodies with good enough stats to maintain its medians, and I doubt it cares about your year of work experience. But when you start looking at Stanford and Yale, I do think softs become more important. Those schools have more applicants with good stats than spots in the class, so they have to use other factors, like work experience and essays and such, to draw distinctions. I mean, on the same page where Yale lists its LSAT median, it brags about how many Eagle Scouts are in the entering class: https://www.law.yale.edu/admissions/pro ... ss-profile.

As for your particular case, my feeling is that your softs would be somewhat mediocre for Y&S, but it's still certainly worth a shot.

[Hikikomorist]

Its sad that people on here reduce law school to a signaling credential. No wonder so many people are dissatisfied.

I'm pretty sure that's what all higher education is for the majority of people. That and a timeout from life to figure out what to do/where to go.

[dabigchina]

I've personally never understood why people from super elite undergrads want to go to law school but to each their own.

to become lawyers? you can't practice law without a JD. How is this confusing?

the fact that OP spent every single summer of UG + 1 year of his life working at an investment bank kind of belies this whole narrative of him having a deep seated/long held desire to be a lawyer. If I were to speculate on his motives, I would say he probably wants to get into politics (given the congressional gig) .

I do think that he (and most people with his background) should understand that going to law school is only a good idea if he has a deep seated desire to be a lawyer. Money/politics/changing the world can all be done with some other, less costly alternative.

[jbagelboy]

I've personally never understood why people from super elite undergrads want to go to law school but to each their own.

to become lawyers? you can't practice law without a JD. How is this confusing?

the fact that OP spent every single summer of UG + 1 year of his life working at an investment bank kind of belies this whole narrative of him having a deep seated/long held desire to be a lawyer. If I were to speculate on his motives, I would say he probably wants to get into politics (given the congressional gig) .

I do think that he (and most people with his background) should understand that going to law school is only a good idea if he has a deep seated desire to be a lawyer. Money/politics/changing the world can all be done with some other, less costly alternative.

okay, that's fair. In this circumstance.

Its sad that people on here reduce law school to a signaling credential. No wonder so many people are dissatisfied.

I'm pretty sure that's what all higher education is for the majority of people. That and a timeout from life to figure out what to do/where to go.

higher education, maybe. not for professional school, though. law school is a trade school, not a PhD program. You wouldn't say this about pharmacy school or medical school or dental school.

[Gstate]

Ok since things got a bit sidetracked from the whole ''chances'' thing, I figure its worth adding some context.

Tbh, I dont really know what the hell I want to do in entirety. Right now, Intellectual property/patent law looks interesting because I do know I want to do something related to technology or start ups. Venture capital is also of interest out in the west coast. I've been in I-banking as you guys have pointed out, but I dont like it and looking to avoid it in future. My ideal end game would be running my own small tech company or doing work related to start up ventures in the tech/patent/cyber security space.

The reason for applying to law school is pretty simple. I'm not overly psyched about going to work at a big law firm at all, but my Undergrad degree is in politics. I dont know what the hell you can frankly do with a bachelor's in politics--even if it is from Princeton. Therefore, I saw law school as a trade school that will give me a skill that most closely correlates to my undergrad degree but actually has more value from a career standpoint.

Going to Business school would be great, but the GMAT was a huge uphill climb for me compared to the LSAT which was already tough as it was. Being a lawyer working at a big firm doesnt honestly sound great at all, but being an entrepreneur as well as having legal skills is definitely more appealing to me.

Feel free to tell me where I'm going wrong here, I'd like to hear what people think

[Tiago Splitter]

This dude has to be trolling with this shit.

FWIW I think landshoes makes some pretty good points here

[Tiago Splitter]

^thank you.

Trying to prove to people that you're smart is probably the worst reason to go to law school and it's bound to make you unhappy. To paraphrase hegel, without passion or substance there is nothing.

How is a law school even the best way? Why not get an MPhil from Cambridge or an MPP from the Kennedy school or a one year masters in french, if all that matters is the name on your degree? A law degree is so much more limiting and so so much more expensive! (Or if you feel that way about life why not just go to a fancy undergraduate college).

Surely you know the answers to these questions. If not, you're beyond help.

Only in some weirdly sheltered world would people think someone with a Masters in french or a degree from Cambridge must be smart.

[dabigchina]

Ok since things got a bit sidetracked from the whole ''chances'' thing, I figure its worth adding some context.

Tbh, I dont really know what the hell I want to do in entirety. Right now, Intellectual property/patent law looks interesting because I do know I want to do something related to technology or start ups. Venture capital is also of interest out in the west coast. I've been in I-banking as you guys have pointed out, but I dont like it and looking to avoid it in future. My ideal end game would be running my own small tech company or doing work related to start up ventures in the tech/patent/cyber security space.

The reason for applying to law school is pretty simple. I'm not overly psyched about going to work at a big law firm at all, but my Undergrad degree is in politics. I dont know what the hell you can frankly do with a bachelor's in politics--even if it is from Princeton. Therefore, I saw law school as a trade school that will give me a skill that most closely correlates to my undergrad degree but actually has more value from a career standpoint.

Going to Business school would be great, but the GMAT was a huge uphill climb for me compared to the LSAT which was already tough as it was. Being a lawyer working at a big firm doesnt honestly sound great at all, but being an entrepreneur as well as having legal skills is definitely more appealing to me.

Feel free to tell me where I'm going wrong here, I'd like to hear what people think

Didn't you do a year at JPM? I'd seriously just roll with that. I think 99% of the biglawers and law students on this forum (me included) would love to be a 22yo ibank analyst.


ETA: check out this thread:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=261680

ETA2: the gmat is not hard. it is also not that important with your background. if you can score a 173 on the LSAT you can score a 700+ on the GMAT without even studying that much (since you will ace the verbal). That + Princeton + JPM = probably M7 MBA. Maybe, MAYBE HSW, especially with your URM status.

Going to law school because you don't know what to do is seriously the dumbest thing you can possibly do to yourself. I went to law school because I had a very very well defined career path for which it made sense. It doesn't sound like you have that figured out at all. It also doesn't get you any closer to you running your own tech company. The composition in SV are mostly coder bros and former banker bros. I didn't see very many former biglawyers when I worked out there.

[jbagelboy]

^thank you.

Trying to prove to people that you're smart is probably the worst reason to go to law school and it's bound to make you unhappy. To paraphrase hegel, without passion or substance there is nothing.

How is a law school even the best way? Why not get an MPhil from Cambridge or an MPP from the Kennedy school or a one year masters in french, if all that matters is the name on your degree? A law degree is so much more limiting and so so much more expensive! (Or if you feel that way about life why not just go to a fancy undergraduate college).

Surely you know the answers to these questions. If not, you're beyond help.

Only in some weirdly sheltered world would people think someone with a Masters in french or a degree from Cambridge must be smart.

I was speaking rhetorically, so of course I know the answers. This only make sense in context of this discussion. Several posters suggested since they didn't go to a fancy college they needed a fancy advanced degree to signal that they were intelligent, and that conversely, if they had a fancy college degree they wouldn't care to pursue something like law school since that core function has been fulfilled. I don't think getting a degree from a particular school or set of schools really "makes you smarter" or look smarter whether its law or philosophy or languages, and even if it does in some marginal sense, it's only incidental and should never replace the substantive reasons someone pursues an advanced degree; if it was just about the name on your degree or linkedin profile or whatever, then there are far less time consuming, less stressful, and less expensive option that accomplishes the same goal (according to their logic, not mine--you obviously identified the flaw).

Whereas one may on other hand view law school as a professional school for a particular trade, the practice of law, that you enter into regardless of whatever other signaling mechanisms you have if you want to be an attorney (not "because its sort of like finance"). It has a heavier academic bent than other professional schools, but licensing to practice--just like medicine or CPA--is the primary purpose.

[cavalier1138]

Ok since things got a bit sidetracked from the whole ''chances'' thing, I figure its worth adding some context.

Tbh, I dont really know what the hell I want to do in entirety. Right now, Intellectual property/patent law looks interesting because I do know I want to do something related to technology or start ups. Venture capital is also of interest out in the west coast. I've been in I-banking as you guys have pointed out, but I dont like it and looking to avoid it in future. My ideal end game would be running my own small tech company or doing work related to start up ventures in the tech/patent/cyber security space.

The reason for applying to law school is pretty simple. I'm not overly psyched about going to work at a big law firm at all, but my Undergrad degree is in politics. I dont know what the hell you can frankly do with a bachelor's in politics--even if it is from Princeton. Therefore, I saw law school as a trade school that will give me a skill that most closely correlates to my undergrad degree but actually has more value from a career standpoint.

Going to Business school would be great, but the GMAT was a huge uphill climb for me compared to the LSAT which was already tough as it was. Being a lawyer working at a big firm doesnt honestly sound great at all, but being an entrepreneur as well as having legal skills is definitely more appealing to me.

Feel free to tell me where I'm going wrong here, I'd like to hear what people think

Ok, now this clarifies things.

You need to actually read what you just wrote, because you've already explained where you're going wrong in your planning. You have literally just said that you want to go to law school but don't want to have anything to do with the law after graduating. As someone mentioned above, this is akin to going to medical school just because you majored in biology in undergrad, even though what you really want to do is run an ice-cream parlor.

Going to law school will not make you more qualified for venture capital. Going to business school will. Take the GMAT. Get your MBA.

[Gstate]

Of course the only caveat is if I wanted to specifically do transaction agreements for start ups in SF. By definition, I would need a JD.

I am not ruling this out , as I mentioned earlier. If I went to business school, clearly I wouldn't be able to pursue this start up transaction law practice.

[landshoes]

^thank you.

Trying to prove to people that you're smart is probably the worst reason to go to law school and it's bound to make you unhappy. To paraphrase hegel, without passion or substance there is nothing.

How is a law school even the best way? Why not get an MPhil from Cambridge or an MPP from the Kennedy school or a one year masters in french, if all that matters is the name on your degree? A law degree is so much more limiting and so so much more expensive! (Or if you feel that way about life why not just go to a fancy undergraduate college).

Surely you know the answers to these questions. If not, you're beyond help.

Only in some weirdly sheltered world would people think someone with a Masters in french or a degree from Cambridge must be smart.

I was speaking rhetorically, so of course I know the answers. This only make sense in context of this discussion. Several posters suggested since they didn't go to a fancy college they needed a fancy advanced degree to signal that they were intelligent, and that conversely, if they had a fancy college degree they wouldn't care to pursue something like law school since that core function has been fulfilled. I don't think getting a degree from a particular school or set of schools really "makes you smarter" or look smarter whether its law or philosophy or languages, and even if it does in some marginal sense, it's only incidental and should never replace the substantive reasons someone pursues an advanced degree; if it was just about the name on your degree or linkedin profile or whatever, then there are far less time consuming, less stressful, and less expensive option that accomplishes the same goal (according to their logic, not mine--you obviously identified the flaw).

Whereas one may on other hand view law school as a professional school for a particular trade, the practice of law, that you enter into regardless of whatever other signaling mechanisms you have if you want to be an attorney (not "because its sort of like finance"). It has a heavier academic bent than other professional schools, but licensing to practice--just like medicine or CPA--is the primary purpose.

nooooo one ever said it "makes you smarter" so we can just shut that right the fuck down right now

answer this: if the degree has no signaling value, why are you at Columbia instead of a cheaper law school?

[dabigchina]

Of course the only caveat is if I wanted to specifically do transaction agreements for start ups in SF. By definition, I would need a JD.

I am not ruling this out , as I mentioned earlier. If I went to business school, clearly I wouldn't be able to pursue this start up transaction law practice.

the upshot is you have a much better shot at running your own startup if you start on the business side than the legal side.

[landshoes]

OP, start applying to jobs in SV startups right now, and then go do one of those jobs.

You can work wherever with your degree and work experience. You just need to buckle down and apply.

Ask Princeton's career services people to help you identify Princeton alums in SV, or just look on LinkedIn. Start there.

It takes work, but it's a lot less work than law school.

Ultimately, transactional work in SV is a thing lawyers do, but I have no idea why you'd want to do it. I'm sure it's fine, but it's basically a service job for the people doing the "cool" work. You absolutely will not be seen as someone who can run a startup just because you work for those people. Not saying it's an impossible transition to make eventually, but law school is a million times less helpful on that path than just going and getting a job.

That said, if you could get into Stanford, maybe it would be an OK idea. But a lot of people say that to themselves, apply to a bunch of places, and then because of path dependency, they end up going to law school somewhere that doesn't really work for them. Don't do that. It'll be more expensive for you than for other people because of your GPA and you really, really don't need to go to law school.

[A. Nony Mouse]

^thank you.

Trying to prove to people that you're smart is probably the worst reason to go to law school and it's bound to make you unhappy. To paraphrase hegel, without passion or substance there is nothing.

How is a law school even the best way? Why not get an MPhil from Cambridge or an MPP from the Kennedy school or a one year masters in french, if all that matters is the name on your degree? A law degree is so much more limiting and so so much more expensive! (Or if you feel that way about life why not just go to a fancy undergraduate college).

Surely you know the answers to these questions. If not, you're beyond help.

Only in some weirdly sheltered world would people think someone with a Masters in french or a degree from Cambridge must be smart.

I was speaking rhetorically, so of course I know the answers. This only make sense in context of this discussion. Several posters suggested since they didn't go to a fancy college they needed a fancy advanced degree to signal that they were intelligent, and that conversely, if they had a fancy college degree they wouldn't care to pursue something like law school since that core function has been fulfilled. I don't think getting a degree from a particular school or set of schools really "makes you smarter" or look smarter whether its law or philosophy or languages, and even if it does in some marginal sense, it's only incidental and should never replace the substantive reasons someone pursues an advanced degree; if it was just about the name on your degree or linkedin profile or whatever, then there are far less time consuming, less stressful, and less expensive option that accomplishes the same goal (according to their logic, not mine--you obviously identified the flaw).

Whereas one may on other hand view law school as a professional school for a particular trade, the practice of law, that you enter into regardless of whatever other signaling mechanisms you have if you want to be an attorney (not "because its sort of like finance"). It has a heavier academic bent than other professional schools, but licensing to practice--just like medicine or CPA--is the primary purpose.

nooooo one ever said it "makes you smarter" so we can just shut that right the fuck down right now

answer this: if the degree has no signaling value, why are you at Columbia instead of a cheaper law school?

There's a difference between signaling value for the legal profession and signaling value for general intelligence, though.

[WhiteCollarBlueShirt]

Haven't read through, because I'm busy again. But do NOT go or DO a 3 year JD/MBA if you must try law.

Law will make you hate every single extraneous conversation you have with your coworkers bc that is .1 that you're not billing. Bankers sit around all day and then work all night and call it a 100 hour week. Lawyers sit around all day and then work all night and it can end up being a 30 hour week.

Just don't pigeonhole yourself in law when you have the credentials to leave business school recruiting open as a fallback. See if you like litigating, see if you can make 300K at Wachtell, but allow yourself to have both law and business campus recruiting opportunities.

[landshoes]

Its sad that people on here reduce law school to a signaling credential. No wonder so many people are dissatisfied.

also, can I just go back to this and LOL?

just lol. forever.

(I'm not dissatisfied with law school, btw. I'm very happy with it and it's already gotten me jobs and access to great people that I could never have gotten without it.

approaching major life decisions with some critical distance is a decent skill that should be encouraged. especially on a board where people who are young and relatively inexperienced are deciding to saddle themselves with 6 figure debt.)

[landshoes]

^thank you.

Trying to prove to people that you're smart is probably the worst reason to go to law school and it's bound to make you unhappy. To paraphrase hegel, without passion or substance there is nothing.

How is a law school even the best way? Why not get an MPhil from Cambridge or an MPP from the Kennedy school or a one year masters in french, if all that matters is the name on your degree? A law degree is so much more limiting and so so much more expensive! (Or if you feel that way about life why not just go to a fancy undergraduate college).

Surely you know the answers to these questions. If not, you're beyond help.

Only in some weirdly sheltered world would people think someone with a Masters in french or a degree from Cambridge must be smart.

I was speaking rhetorically, so of course I know the answers. This only make sense in context of this discussion. Several posters suggested since they didn't go to a fancy college they needed a fancy advanced degree to signal that they were intelligent, and that conversely, if they had a fancy college degree they wouldn't care to pursue something like law school since that core function has been fulfilled. I don't think getting a degree from a particular school or set of schools really "makes you smarter" or look smarter whether its law or philosophy or languages, and even if it does in some marginal sense, it's only incidental and should never replace the substantive reasons someone pursues an advanced degree; if it was just about the name on your degree or linkedin profile or whatever, then there are far less time consuming, less stressful, and less expensive option that accomplishes the same goal (according to their logic, not mine--you obviously identified the flaw).

Whereas one may on other hand view law school as a professional school for a particular trade, the practice of law, that you enter into regardless of whatever other signaling mechanisms you have if you want to be an attorney (not "because its sort of like finance"). It has a heavier academic bent than other professional schools, but licensing to practice--just like medicine or CPA--is the primary purpose.

nooooo one ever said it "makes you smarter" so we can just shut that right the fuck down right now

answer this: if the degree has no signaling value, why are you at Columbia instead of a cheaper law school?

There's a difference between signaling value for the legal profession and signaling value for general intelligence, though.

true, and I'm strawmanning a little bit because he's doing the whole "how dare you consider anything but your ~love of the practice of law~" thing which I find toxic when we're talking to 0Ls.

the reason why attending a school like Columbia adds value is largely because it signals that you got into Columbia. Princeton already signals basically the exact same thing, but without the added limitations that law school imposes on you. law school might even make it harder to get a job if you're a Princeton grad, because it will limit your ability to get jobs in different industries.

The people law school has the most value for are not people who are vaguely bored at their well-paying, high-status finance gig. I guess those people might genuinely want to be lawyers which hey, great, go for it. But given the general misery of many people in the legal profession, and given that a lot of those would-be lawyers have zero experience with the law and don't know what lawyers actually do, you will forgive me for being skeptical that they genuinely want to be lawyers. 9 times out of 10 they have no idea what they're doing and want to achieve some other goal that could be achieved more cheaply and with less bullshit

(helping people, working in business, etc. are not completely congruent with "being a lawyer," at all)

There are people who are working retail b/c that's the best job they can get. People like that (eg me) get into great law schools all the time. In my experience, those are the people who are happiest with their choice. because for them, the other option was not sticking in finance for 10 years and making a fuckton of money (shitty job, but you don't pay for 3 years of grad school to do it). their other option wasn't making 60k at some decent non-profit. the people who can do that and who went to law school probably did not make a great choice.

but for a lot of people, their alternative to law school was retail until their knees gave out, or maybe until they landed a 10/hour office gig. those people are pretty psyched to be making six figures and for them it was unquestionably worth it.

that's what I'm trying to get at here. the value added by law school is not all that much for people who went to schools like the OPs. and if they don't even particularly want to be lawyers, then it is sad.

(yes yes they should have learned to program, but if I have to read that convo one more time I'm going to claw my eyes out.)