Univ Penn ED 162 3.96 Please HELP (reverse splitter) Forum

[Mullens]

Your GPA is too good to waste. You need to retake, maybe even sit out a cycle. I would kill for your GPA.

Haha thanks. Does that mean I have no shot at Penn ED this year? Or does it mean I would be a fool to get into Penn and pay sticker?

it means you should be shot if you get into Penn ED and pay sticker.

Haha why is that? If I graduated penn and went into big law id be living the good life...10 years after I graduate.

Or you could retake, sit out a year, and live the good life 4 years from now instead of 13. Your decision will likely cost you, at a minimum, over $100,000. I am not exaggerating. I worked for two years after UG while I retook the LSAT, got a massive scholarship, and am gonna graduate from a T14 debt free. Sticker at Penn costs about $300,000. The majority of students in the T14 worked between UG and law school. It's 65% at Penn.

Retake.

[jetsfan1]

Hey man time for some real talk...

I was in pretty much exactly the same situation as you 4 years ago. Same exact LSAT score and a gpa a smidge lower. I was about to graduate without a job and thus almost made the decision to ED to Georgetown. Not even kidding, I had the app opened up, ED checked, all that jazz. Then I found TLS. Since graduating I've held 3 awesome jobs that have allowed me to travel the world, have some great experiences, and most importantly for the purposes of your situation, retake the LSAT and really be sure I wanted to do this whole law thing. I'm going through my cycle now so idk how it'll turn out, but I am a WORLD apart from that kid 4 years ago too stubborn to take a year off.

Please, please think a bit more about this. Go retake the LSAT in February (tbh June would probably be better to properly prep) and prep your ass off. I prepped minimum 2 hrs a day for over 5 months and it was worth every second. Pretend someone is paying you $200/hr to study, cause if you put in the effort that may actually be true.

[pittsburghpirates]

This thread could be useful to read OP:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=247755

Huge gains are possible!

[A. Nony Mouse]

I know that person personally. He took the LSAT multiple times. Your softs do not trump him in the slightest.

I wonder if some self-interested people try to persuade others to sit out a cycle in order to boost their own chances at the same school? Do you think some people do that?

No one does this.

(Besides, xael is already in law school.)

[psu2016]

I had a 163 and a 4.0x and didn't retake. Ended up at a TTT. Worked out for me (I hit biglaw), but, lemme tell you, I regret every day that I didn't go for that retake, suck it up, and hit a 170 to get into a good place with money. Every. Single. Day.

Don't let that be you, OP. You can do better.

[darthslughorn]

I know that person personally. He took the LSAT multiple times. Your softs do not trump him in the slightest.

I wonder if some self-interested people try to persuade others to sit out a cycle in order to boost their own chances at the same school? Do you think some people do that?

wow, he figured is out

[Bbbrian]

Hey man time for some real talk...

I was in pretty much exactly the same situation as you 4 years ago. Same exact LSAT score and a gpa a smidge lower. I was about to graduate without a job and thus almost made the decision to ED to Georgetown. Not even kidding, I had the app opened up, ED checked, all that jazz. Then I found TLS. Since graduating I've held 3 awesome jobs that have allowed me to travel the world, have some great experiences, and most importantly for the purposes of your situation, retake the LSAT and really be sure I wanted to do this whole law thing. I'm going through my cycle now so idk how it'll turn out, but I am a WORLD apart from that kid 4 years ago too stubborn to take a year off.

Please, please think a bit more about this. Go retake the LSAT in February (tbh June would probably be better to properly prep) and prep your ass off. I prepped minimum 2 hrs a day for over 5 months and it was worth every second. Pretend someone is paying you $200/hr to study, cause if you put in the effort that may actually be true.

Isn't everyone making the assumption that I won't receive need based grants? Am I missing something?

[Bbbrian]

I had a 163 and a 4.0x and didn't retake. Ended up at a TTT. Worked out for me (I hit biglaw), but, lemme tell you, I regret every day that I didn't go for that retake, suck it up, and hit a 170 to get into a good place with money. Every. Single. Day.

Don't let that be you, OP. You can do better.

Thanks but what about need based grants? Isn't that important to consider? Am I missing something?

[Bbbrian]

Your GPA is too good to waste. You need to retake, maybe even sit out a cycle. I would kill for your GPA.

Haha thanks. Does that mean I have no shot at Penn ED this year? Or does it mean I would be a fool to get into Penn and pay sticker?

it means you should be shot if you get into Penn ED and pay sticker.

Haha why is that? If I graduated penn and went into big law id be living the good life...10 years after I graduate.

Or you could retake, sit out a year, and live the good life 4 years from now instead of 13. Your decision will likely cost you, at a minimum, over $100,000. I am not exaggerating. I worked for two years after UG while I retook the LSAT, got a massive scholarship, and am gonna graduate from a T14 debt free. Sticker at Penn costs about $300,000. The majority of students in the T14 worked between UG and law school. It's 65% at Penn.

Retake.

Should I expect 0 from need based grants and just assume if I don't receive a merit based scholarship I'm paying sticker?

[Bbbrian]

Changes in number of takers have not materially changed admissions standards for as long as I've been following admissions. Plus forget scholarships if you ED, plus Penn isn't likely to give scholarships to anyone off the waitlist unless it was a yield protect, so that's not relevant to you. You really should find a tutor and retake for real. The payoff is well worth it. I'm confident that if you really tried you could improve significantly, I know because I've done it and I'm not particularly brilliant. Also I like how sitting out a year is a pretty intense decision, but signing a contract to give away hundreds of thousands instead of getting good at a multiple choice test isn't lol. Trust me man you can do it and it's really the right play here.

Thanks for the advice. Can you tell me anything about need based grants at U Penn? I was also counting on that to help me out but no one has mentioned it in this thread yet. I'm calling the school to get more info but would love to hear from someone who has some insight.

[lymenheimer]

Thanks for the advice. Can you tell me anything about need based grants at U Penn? I was also counting on that to help me out but no one has mentioned it in this thread yet. I'm calling the school to get more info but would love to hear from someone who has some insight.

Need based grants aren't really a thing. You get scholarship money. It is either merit-based, need-based, or both. Most schools only do what equates to a merit-based scholarship (sometimes with need-based factors included). So you may get a slight bump in your scholarship offer for a financial hardship. Some schools exclude you from need-based consideration if you are awarded a merit-scholarship. Other than that, you're figuring another way to pay for law school (outside scholarship, loans, savings, etc).

[Bbbrian]

Thanks for the advice. Can you tell me anything about need based grants at U Penn? I was also counting on that to help me out but no one has mentioned it in this thread yet. I'm calling the school to get more info but would love to hear from someone who has some insight.

Need based grants aren't really a thing. You get scholarship money. It is either merit-based, need-based, or both. Most schools only do what equates to a merit-based scholarship (sometimes with need-based factors included). So you may get a slight bump in your scholarship offer for a financial hardship. Some schools exclude you from need-based consideration if you are awarded a merit-scholarship. Other than that, you're figuring another way to pay for law school (outside scholarship, loans, savings, etc).

Your the first person to say they're not really a thing. Most T14 schools offer it and a lot of people report getting offers between 10-20k the first year. What makes you think that? Penn processes merit based scholarships before they process need based because a FAFSA is required first for need based. I'm just looking for a little boost of 10k a year for 3 years. 30k off the top would still be helpful

[lymenheimer]

Thanks for the advice. Can you tell me anything about need based grants at U Penn? I was also counting on that to help me out but no one has mentioned it in this thread yet. I'm calling the school to get more info but would love to hear from someone who has some insight.

Need based grants aren't really a thing. You get scholarship money. It is either merit-based, need-based, or both. Most schools only do what equates to a merit-based scholarship (sometimes with need-based factors included). So you may get a slight bump in your scholarship offer for a financial hardship. Some schools exclude you from need-based consideration if you are awarded a merit-scholarship. Other than that, you're figuring another way to pay for law school (outside scholarship, loans, savings, etc).

Your the first person to say they're not really a thing. Most T14 schools offer it and a lot of people report getting offers between 10-20k the first year. What makes you think that? Penn processes merit based scholarships before they process need based because a FAFSA is required first for need based. I'm just looking for a little boost of 10k a year for 3 years. 30k off the top would still be helpful

Then maybe I have no idea what I'm talking about. However, none of the T14s that I've been accepted to have need-based grants or much of a bump in their scholarship offerings for need-based concerns. That is coming directly from financial aid people, and the information on their sites.

[psu2016]

Thanks for the advice. Can you tell me anything about need based grants at U Penn? I was also counting on that to help me out but no one has mentioned it in this thread yet. I'm calling the school to get more info but would love to hear from someone who has some insight.

Need based grants aren't really a thing. You get scholarship money. It is either merit-based, need-based, or both. Most schools only do what equates to a merit-based scholarship (sometimes with need-based factors included). So you may get a slight bump in your scholarship offer for a financial hardship. Some schools exclude you from need-based consideration if you are awarded a merit-scholarship. Other than that, you're figuring another way to pay for law school (outside scholarship, loans, savings, etc).

Your the first person to say they're not really a thing. Most T14 schools offer it and a lot of people report getting offers between 10-20k the first year. What makes you think that? Penn processes merit based scholarships before they process need based because a FAFSA is required first for need based. I'm just looking for a little boost of 10k a year for 3 years. 30k off the top would still be helpful

Look at average indebtedness if you think you're going to skate through on need-based grants.

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... ngs/page+3

Penn law students who took out loans graduated with an average of $130K in debt. All 74% of those people who were out loans probably also considered themselves "needy". Seriously, OP, need based-grants aren't going to save you here.

[Bbbrian]

Thanks for the advice. Can you tell me anything about need based grants at U Penn? I was also counting on that to help me out but no one has mentioned it in this thread yet. I'm calling the school to get more info but would love to hear from someone who has some insight.

Need based grants aren't really a thing. You get scholarship money. It is either merit-based, need-based, or both. Most schools only do what equates to a merit-based scholarship (sometimes with need-based factors included). So you may get a slight bump in your scholarship offer for a financial hardship. Some schools exclude you from need-based consideration if you are awarded a merit-scholarship. Other than that, you're figuring another way to pay for law school (outside scholarship, loans, savings, etc).

Your the first person to say they're not really a thing. Most T14 schools offer it and a lot of people report getting offers between 10-20k the first year. What makes you think that? Penn processes merit based scholarships before they process need based because a FAFSA is required first for need based. I'm just looking for a little boost of 10k a year for 3 years. 30k off the top would still be helpful

Look at average indebtedness if you think you're going to skate through on need-based grants.

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... ngs/page+3

Penn law students who took out loans graduated with an average of $130K in debt. All 74% of those people who were out loans probably also considered themselves "needy". Seriously, OP, need based-grants aren't going to save you here.

Thanks. I'm not looking to get saved, I'm just trying to offset the cost by 30k after three years if possible.

[rnoodles]

Please retake OP. Couple hard months of studying + that stellar GPA could mean HYS.

[Bbbrian]

Thanks for the advice. Can you tell me anything about need based grants at U Penn? I was also counting on that to help me out but no one has mentioned it in this thread yet. I'm calling the school to get more info but would love to hear from someone who has some insight.

Need based grants aren't really a thing. You get scholarship money. It is either merit-based, need-based, or both. Most schools only do what equates to a merit-based scholarship (sometimes with need-based factors included). So you may get a slight bump in your scholarship offer for a financial hardship. Some schools exclude you from need-based consideration if you are awarded a merit-scholarship. Other than that, you're figuring another way to pay for law school (outside scholarship, loans, savings, etc).

Your the first person to say they're not really a thing. Most T14 schools offer it and a lot of people report getting offers between 10-20k the first year. What makes you think that? Penn processes merit based scholarships before they process need based because a FAFSA is required first for need based. I'm just looking for a little boost of 10k a year for 3 years. 30k off the top would still be helpful

Then maybe I have no idea what I'm talking about. However, none of the T14s that I've been accepted to have need-based grants or much of a bump in their scholarship offerings for need-based concerns. That is coming directly from financial aid people, and the information on their sites.

This is from a post from 4 years ago:

As far as I know, most top law schools award need-based aid. For those that do, the FAFSA is completely useless in determining how much you'll get if you're under 30 because it doesn't take into account parents' income. Needaccess requires parent information for anyone under 30. Here's the list that uses Needaccess (taken from the website):
American University Washington College of Law
Boston College Law School
Boston University School of Law
Brooklyn Law School
Columbia University Law School
Cornell University Law School
Georgetown University Law Center Harvard Law School
Hofstra University School of Law
New York University School of Law
Northwestern University School of Law
Stanford Law School
Suffolk University Law School
UCLA School of Law
University of California Davis School of Law
University of California Hastings School of Law
University of Chicago Law School
University of the District of Columbia David A. Clarke School of Law
University of Michigan Law School
University of New Mexico School of Law
University of Pennsylvania School of Law
Vanderbilt University Law School
Yale University Law School

End Post

Why would all of these school have an association with needaccess if it wasn't to calculate financial need for a need based grant?

[Bbbrian]

Please retake OP. Couple hard months of studying + that stellar GPA could mean HYS.

haha i know i know. I'm still applying this year and once I see what my options are, I'll make a decision.

[lymenheimer]

Thanks for the advice. Can you tell me anything about need based grants at U Penn? I was also counting on that to help me out but no one has mentioned it in this thread yet. I'm calling the school to get more info but would love to hear from someone who has some insight.

Need based grants aren't really a thing. You get scholarship money. It is either merit-based, need-based, or both. Most schools only do what equates to a merit-based scholarship (sometimes with need-based factors included). So you may get a slight bump in your scholarship offer for a financial hardship. Some schools exclude you from need-based consideration if you are awarded a merit-scholarship. Other than that, you're figuring another way to pay for law school (outside scholarship, loans, savings, etc).

Your the first person to say they're not really a thing. Most T14 schools offer it and a lot of people report getting offers between 10-20k the first year. What makes you think that? Penn processes merit based scholarships before they process need based because a FAFSA is required first for need based. I'm just looking for a little boost of 10k a year for 3 years. 30k off the top would still be helpful

Then maybe I have no idea what I'm talking about. However, none of the T14s that I've been accepted to have need-based grants or much of a bump in their scholarship offerings for need-based concerns. That is coming directly from financial aid people, and the information on their sites.

Why would all of these school have an association with needaccess if it wasn't to calculate financial need for a need based grant?

You literally did not read anything that I wrote except for what you interpreted as "they don't exist". Yes, these schools have assoc with needaccess to help them discern need-based concerns. Now read the bolded^^^.

[Traynor Brah]

You would be a complete fool to not retake.

[Bbbrian]

Thanks for the advice. Can you tell me anything about need based grants at U Penn? I was also counting on that to help me out but no one has mentioned it in this thread yet. I'm calling the school to get more info but would love to hear from someone who has some insight.

Need based grants aren't really a thing. You get scholarship money. It is either merit-based, need-based, or both. Most schools only do what equates to a merit-based scholarship (sometimes with need-based factors included). So you may get a slight bump in your scholarship offer for a financial hardship. Some schools exclude you from need-based consideration if you are awarded a merit-scholarship. Other than that, you're figuring another way to pay for law school (outside scholarship, loans, savings, etc).

Your the first person to say they're not really a thing. Most T14 schools offer it and a lot of people report getting offers between 10-20k the first year. What makes you think that? Penn processes merit based scholarships before they process need based because a FAFSA is required first for need based. I'm just looking for a little boost of 10k a year for 3 years. 30k off the top would still be helpful

Then maybe I have no idea what I'm talking about. However, none of the T14s that I've been accepted to have need-based grants or much of a bump in their scholarship offerings for need-based concerns. That is coming directly from financial aid people, and the information on their sites.

Why would all of these school have an association with needaccess if it wasn't to calculate financial need for a need based grant?

You literally did not read anything that I wrote except for what you interpreted as "they don't exist". Yes, these schools have assoc with needaccess to help them discern need-based concerns. Now read the bolded^^^.

Ok actually I literally did read your entire post. I'm already assuming I'm not receiving any merit based scholarships. In other words, my aid from need based scholarships won't be mitigated by my $0 merit scholarship like you suggested. Nor does Penn fit your description that

"Most schools only do what equates to a merit-based scholarship (sometimes with need-based factors included)."

We're talking about two different application processes for two different types of aid a UPenn. Yes, if I received merit based scholarships, they would consider that when considering need based grants. However, the point of my hypothetical was based on the premise that no merit grants would be awarded.

[chayatshuva]

Tell me about it - retake OP!

I wish I had known I was going to apply to law school when I was in UG

+1 actually +982394792382389yq290320349-w0[593043092 bc that is the goddamn truth

[Bbbrian]

Tell me about it - retake OP!

I wish I had known I was going to apply to law school when I was in UG

+1 actually +982394792382389yq290320349-w0[593043092 bc that is the goddamn truth

huh?

[lymenheimer]

We're talking about two different application processes for two different types of aid a UPenn. Yes, if I received merit based scholarships, they would consider that when considering need based grants. However, the point of my hypothetical was based on the premise that no merit grants would be awarded.

The reason I use "need-based scholarship" rather than grant is because "grant" can mean many different things to a bunch of people. I see that UPenn uses "grant" to = "need-based scholarship". Any school that offers need based aid is going to use Fafsa and/or need access. Or else they wouldn't have a way to determine your need. Nobody here is going to be able to tell you how much need-based aid you're going to receive. Which is why the easiest way to receive aid is to improve your LSAT score and get merit-based, which is going to arguably be higher than need-based awards anyways.

[Bbbrian]

We're talking about two different application processes for two different types of aid a UPenn. Yes, if I received merit based scholarships, they would consider that when considering need based grants. However, the point of my hypothetical was based on the premise that no merit grants would be awarded.

The reason I use "need-based scholarship" rather than grant is because "grant" can mean many different things to a bunch of people. I see that UPenn uses "grant" to = "need-based scholarship". Any school that offers need based aid is going to use Fafsa and/or need access. Or else they wouldn't have a way to determine your need. Nobody here is going to be able to tell you how much need-based aid you're going to receive. Which is why the easiest way to receive aid is to improve your LSAT score and get merit-based, which is going to arguably be higher than need-based awards anyways.

That's fair. And my goal is definitely getting a higher lsat. I'm just trying to look at all my options. Thanks for the advice