ED t14? Forum

[FluffMonster]

I may not have been absolutely clear about what I am asking, so here is my clarification:

I will be blanketing t14 RD with my current numbers, but I was wondering, since cost isn't a factor, which of the t14 would it be best to ED to give me the best possible admissions boost. I am operating under the assumption that I will receive no money anyway, so I want to really improve my chances through ED at one of the schools. Which school should that be? My goal is big law in a major market.

I appreciate all of the input from former applicants with similar numbers (keep it coming please) but I primarily want to know which t14 strikes the best balance between good big law prospects + likely ED acceptance with my numbers + high ranking (i.e. if I have a similar shot at ED at Chicago as I do Penn, I would do Chicago. But if my chances at Penn are better enough that I am much more likely to get in there, I would do Penn so as to not waste my one ED choice. Similarly, If i know I can ED and get in at both Penn and UVA, I would prefer Penn. But if UVA gives me a MUCH better shot, I'd rather take the chance on it and help to further guarantee a spot in the t14.) I've just been using Penn, Chicago, and UVA as examples based on what i saw on mylsn, I am open to other suggestions.

For what its worth, Chicago is my "dream school" and absolute number one option, even though I doubt I could get in.

I just don't understand your reasoning for not retaking... if Chicago is your dream school, then why not study and retake in October to give your self the best shot at it? A 168+ gives you a MUCH better shot than EDing with a 164 would.

And I wholeheartedly agree with SplitMyPants. If you can't put in an extra few weeks studying for a very learnable test, then you probably will not do well in law school or enjoy being an attorney.

[Clearly]

Even forgetting the financial side, against my better judgement, you should still retake. If you want to get into the best school you can get into, just retake and pay sticker at Harvard instead of gulc. I retook that score myself and don't regret it!

[dolastas]

I just don't understand your reasoning for not retaking... if Chicago is your dream school, then why not study and retake in October to give your self the best shot at it? A 168+ gives you a MUCH better shot than EDing with a 164 would.

And I wholeheartedly agree with SplitMyPants. If you can't put in an extra few weeks studying for a very learnable test, then you probably will not do well in law school or enjoy being an attorney.

This is incredible. TLS never ever disappoints. I understand that retaking and improving my LSAT would only improve my chances (who doesn't understand this) but that has little to do with the question I am asking.

I simply would like to know which school in the t14 - given my particular GPA/LSAT combination and desire for big law - would be the best school to use my one and only ED app on. I will be blanketing t14 with RD, but I would like to increase my chances of guaranteeing a spot in the t14 with an ED app. Since I can only do this once, I want to know where it is wisest to use that ED option. Thats it. That is all I want to know. I do not want to know about the advantages of retaking or the disadvantages of ED. I have read through enough of TLS to know exactly what you are going to say before you say it and, in general, I would be inclined to agree with you. But, for a moment, can we just suspend our judgement and the "my way is the only way" attitude in order for someone to help me decide on which school I should submit my one ED to. I am rewording and repeating this question over and over but, nevertheless, it is being ignored and people are just responding to tell me to retake and/or not ED.

I have looked through mylsn and i have read the blog post on which schools give the greatest ED boosts. However, I am wary of making my decision based solely on numbers, which may not even be accurate, that come from a very small sample of applicants. From what i have read in the blog post and seen on my lsn; UVA, Penn, and Chicago give ED boosts and, in particular, have let a number of people with similar numbers to mine in through ED. So I am, again, reaching out to the seasoned TLSers for an answer to my question. Some of you must have picked up some info that will help me on the way to your 2000+ post counts. And if not one of these three schools, which?

[SplitMyPants]

I simply would like to know which school in the t14 - given my particular GPA/LSAT combination and desire for big law - would be the best school to use my one and only ED app on.

None.

To answer your question more directly, then, the answer is bluntly none. It would be "best" to use your ED app on none of them, given your GPA and goals.

Good luck, follow your dreams.

[Hikikomorist]

OP, you can apply to more than one school ED, as long as you stagger applications. For example, UVA offers an expedited decision, so you could apply there first, get a response, and then apply to Penn if it didn't work out with UVA.

[Indifference]

Your use of ED is unusual, as is your approach to numbers. I'm not sure why you are surprised TLS would respond as it always does. If money is no issue your best option is still to retake and use your impressive GPA alongside a better LSAT to get in to the best school you can (which is anywhere with your GPA and an actually good LSAT) with the rare luxury of money not being a factor.

But...You seem dead set on doing this. I'd say apply Rd everywhere, pick a school you like best out of those that give the biggest ED boosts and ED there if you don't care where you go. But again, to be blunt, your mindset and approach to the process is at odds with everything the forum hive encourages.

Also, no one is going to really be able to help you beyond the reading you have already done. You say you don't want to apply based on numbers... Well that's what people here base any reasonable answers on. So go with the numbers, or don't. Just don't expect some magical answer to your question on these forums that is based on something outside the existing numbers.

[dolastas]

I simply would like to know which school in the t14 - given my particular GPA/LSAT combination and desire for big law - would be the best school to use my one and only ED app on.

None.

To answer your question more directly, then, the answer is bluntly none. It would be "best" to use your ED app on none of them, given your GPA and goals.

Good luck, follow your dreams.

So, because I disagree with the way that you think I should approach admissions, you claim that there won't even be a marginal improvement in my chances of being accepted at any of the t14 with an ED? Because this is what I am asking. You and I and everyone else know that this is not true. ED is clearly a way to improve my chances (however marginal that improvement may be despite the increased risks that accompany ED) and I just want to know where this is most true. But whatever, thanks for your input anyway. I'm really not trying to be hostile myself and I am definitely not trying to start an argument in an internet forum, I really just wanted to know where others thought was best. I shouldn't even be frustrated, I knew exactly what kind of responses I was going to get.

[UpandDown97]

I simply would like to know which school in the t14 - given my particular GPA/LSAT combination and desire for big law - would be the best school to use my one and only ED app on.

None.

To answer your question more directly, then, the answer is bluntly none. It would be "best" to use your ED app on none of them, given your GPA and goals.

Good luck, follow your dreams.

So, because I disagree with the way that you think I should approach admissions, you claim that there won't even be a marginal improvement in my chances of being accepted at any of the t14 with an ED? Because this is what I am asking. You and I and everyone else know that this is not true. ED is clearly a way to improve my chances (however marginal that improvement may be despite the increased risks that accompany ED) and I just want to know where this is most true. But whatever, thanks for your input anyway. I'm really not trying to be hostile myself and I am definitely not trying to start an argument in an internet forum, I really just wanted to know where others thought was best. I shouldn't even be frustrated, I knew exactly what kind of responses I was going to get.

Well, you're frustrated because you're not listening to an answer. Your best bet is to ED where you'll get the best boost. I showed you those numbers. You can go back and find the blog's postings about last year's ED numbers too.

Do some extrapolating too rather than waiting for a definitive answer. If on LSN (the best numbers we have available- no way to know if there are more false-positives or more false-negatives) 4 people applied to Chicago and 1 got in, and that individual did not ED but had diverse demographic background, then you know an ED might be important there. Same applies for Penn. But not UVA where 4/6 people with your stats who applied got in.

Edit: This is all research you can do yourself. And there are answers on here if you know how to listen through the static coming from the negative people. TLS only knows what it knows-which is a lot- but it's constrained by the fact that the admissions game doesn't feature full information. Best guesses are made.

[dolastas]

OP, you can apply to more than one school ED, as long as you stagger applications. For example, UVA offers an expedited decision, so you could apply there first, get a response, and then apply to Penn if it didn't work out with UVA.

This is likely what I will end up doing, barring new information that drastically changes my stance. I'll ED at UVA as soon as apps open up. If I get in - great, mission accomplished: I have locked down a spot in the t14. If not, I will only be 15 or so days into the cycle so I'll either ED at Penn or wherever or I will end up retaking. I am not inherently against retaking, to be clear, I just would rather not go through prep, taking it, and painfully waiting again if I don't have to. (I don't know why this is so hard to accept. T14 is t14, people would sell their soul just to get in. I have no problem accepting UVA even if I had the potential for Chicago.) If I don't get in ED at UVA I might be inclined to believe that I do have to retake, though.

[Clearly]

Dude, we understand your question. It's just you won't listen to the correct answer. No such school exists for someone with your numbers that guarantees biglaw whether you're rich or not. If you want biglaw you should retake.

[JusPassItToWill]

It's a little strange to me that you're fetishizing the T14 so much; kinda going for a "I'll go to whatever takes me" attitude rather than a "I will do better next time (AKA retake) and make them WANT me". You really don't have any preference between the schools in the Top 14? Location, grading system, professors? They're all just a number to you? And honestly, even like 2 points higher would probably make a greater difference on your chances of getting into any school, as you're looking for, than applying ED would. But whatever.

If you're really dead set on applying ED, and money is no object, why not just go for broke and apply ED to Chicago? You said it's your dream school, who knows if that will be the tipping point? Might as well. If you fail, you'll probably still hit Georgetown or Cornell, something like that.

Good luck.

[dolastas]

Dude, we understand your question. It's just you won't listen to the correct answer. No such school exists for someone with your numbers that guarantees biglaw whether you're rich or not. If you want biglaw you should retake.

I apologize if anyone was actually trying to directly answer my question with a "retake" response, but I misinterpreted that it was just the standard automatic TLS retake reply.

This is the sort of response that is actually helpful and relevant even though its advancing TLS agenda. I don't want to read over and over again about how I should retake. But if its really true that none of the lower t14 I'd pay sticker for (or a higher t14 I might be able to ED into) would firmly set me on a path to big law, then I do value your advice to retake. And, if what you say is true, maybe I should then retake.

What would you (and anyone else that wants to chime in) consider to be a school worth going to if I am chasing big law? Others in this thread have said not to ED because I will end up with some RD acceptances in t14, though at sticker. Is this not true? Or are these schools just not good for my goals?

[dolastas]

It's a little strange to me that you're fetishizing the T14 so much; kinda going for a "I'll go to whatever takes me" attitude rather than a "I will do better next time (AKA retake) and make them WANT me". You really don't have any preference between the schools in the Top 14? Location, grading system, professors? They're all just a number to you? And honestly, even like 2 points higher would probably make a greater difference on your chances of getting into any school, as you're looking for, than applying ED would. But whatever.

If you're really dead set on applying ED, and money is no object, why not just go for broke and apply ED to Chicago? You said it's your dream school, who knows if that will be the tipping point? Might as well. If you fail, you'll probably still hit Georgetown or Cornell, something like that.

Good luck.

It does sound a little like I am fetishizing it, I know. But I think thats just an attitude I developed from reading TLS too much. I have gotten the impression that t14 is the promised land for big law and so I guess I just want it at all costs, which seemingly is to my own detriment according to the consensus here.

ETA: But yes, the schools are to me just a number. I was under the impression that they all place relatively well in major markets (correct me if I am wrong) so, while I have some preferences, it just comes down to wanting to get into the best possible school.

[UpandDown97]

OP, you can apply to more than one school ED, as long as you stagger applications. For example, UVA offers an expedited decision, so you could apply there first, get a response, and then apply to Penn if it didn't work out with UVA.

This is likely what I will end up doing, barring new information that drastically changes my stance. I'll ED at UVA as soon as apps open up. If I get in - great, mission accomplished: I have locked down a spot in the t14. If not, I will only be 15 or so days into the cycle so I'll either ED at Penn or wherever or I will end up retaking. I am not inherently against retaking, to be clear, I just would rather not go through prep, taking it, and painfully waiting again if I don't have to. (I don't know why this is so hard to accept. T14 is t14, people would sell their soul just to get in. I have no problem accepting UVA even if I had the potential for Chicago.) If I don't get in ED at UVA I might be inclined to believe that I do have to retake, though.

I'm beggining to think you're a troll since you're so obstinate.

If you want Chicago, ED Chicago. You'd surely get into UVA with an ED; they'll want your GPA and the dollar signs that your ED represents. But you can do better, and get yourself closer to a guarentee of big law.

And definitely don't ED unless you've visited and fallen in love with the place.

No school guarentees big law, but look at a school's big law + fed clerkship numbers to get an idea of what percentage in the class you need to be to lock down one of those positions. In case you don't know- people with fed clerkships usually can get big law or already have it and are delaying starting by a year.

At top schools, you can arguably include some other jobs into the equation-like government jobs, PI, etc.- but that's another issue in itself.

[biglawhopeful18]

.

[dolastas]

OP, I'll go against the grain and address your actual question. As the poster above said, you can absolutely ED to multiple schools. You can actually ED to up to 4 schools in one cycle if you're dinged at the first 3, granted none of them overlap. You could ED to UVA in October, Chicago by December, UPenn Round 2 by January (7th?), and GULC if all of those fail and your confidence is crushed. You'd get GULC RD but I'm just saying. I'm pretty sure UVA let's you do the ED option until their deadline, so given Chicago is your #1 then maybe you could go Chicago then Penn then UVA (if it comes to that) while blanketing the rest of your target schools RD as soon as apps open up. Duke also has Round 2 ED in January, and you can switch your GULC app from RD to ED anytime before a decision is made.

Perfect, I hadn't looked deeply enough into the intricacies of ED just yet and knew very little of this. This basically answers a lot of questions for me and will shape how I play out admissions. Thanks for going against the grain.

[dolastas]

I'm beggining to think you're a troll since you're so obstinate.

If you want Chicago, ED Chicago. You'd surely get into UVA with an ED; they'll want your GPA and the dollar signs that your ED represents. But you can do better, and get yourself closer to a guarentee of big law.

And definitely don't ED unless you've visited and fallen in love with the place.

No school guarentees big law, but look at a school's big law + fed clerkship numbers to get an idea of what percentage in the class you need to be to lock down one of those positions. In case you don't know- people with fed clerkships usually can get big law or already have it and are delaying starting by a year.

At top schools, you can arguably include some other jobs into the equation-like government jobs, PI, etc.- but that's another issue in itself.

Lol sorry, didn't mean to come across as a troll. I was just pushing the issue and trying to feel out different responses while juggling my own. I appreciate your input and everyone else's, even the "retake" ones considering they are well-intentioned. I'm taking everything into consideration.

[stego]

Dude, we understand your question. It's just you won't listen to the correct answer. No such school exists for someone with your numbers that guarantees biglaw whether you're rich or not. If you want biglaw you should retake.

I agree that OP should retake, but I don't really understand what you're saying here. Law firms don't look at your LSAT score. A 180 doesn't guarantee biglaw. There is no such thing as guaranteed biglaw.

If your point is just that someone who is unwilling to put in the time to improve a 164 is unlikely to put in the work to succeed in law school or in the legal profession, you might have a point.

[UpandDown97]

Dude, we understand your question. It's just you won't listen to the correct answer. No such school exists for someone with your numbers that guarantees biglaw whether you're rich or not. If you want biglaw you should retake.

I agree that OP should retake, but I don't really understand what you're saying here. Law firms don't look at your LSAT score. A 180 doesn't guarantee biglaw. There is no such thing as guaranteed biglaw.

If your point is just that someone who is unwilling to put in the time to improve a 164 is unlikely to put in the work to succeed in law school or in the legal profession, you might have a point.

This is a joke, right? A 164 is such a dreadful score in your book that no one could possibly succeed if that's what their aptitude is?

[banjo]

OP, what do you want to do with your career? "Big law" encompasses a huge number of markets and practice areas. If you want to clerk and then litigate in DC, maybe you should retake for HYS. If you want transactional work in a cheaper city than NYC, maybe you should think about Chicago/NU. And sure, if you just want any market-paying firm in NYC and you don't care whether it's Cravath or Holland & Knight, ED Penn or UVA will probably get you there. In other words, your goal shouldn't just be to get into a T14--it should be getting into a school that takes you where you want to go. And although it's a bit exaggerated, which T14 you attend definitely makes a difference.

And yes, I get that this isn't a response to your exact question, but good advice often involves telling people they're asking the wrong question.

[stego]

Dude, we understand your question. It's just you won't listen to the correct answer. No such school exists for someone with your numbers that guarantees biglaw whether you're rich or not. If you want biglaw you should retake.

I agree that OP should retake, but I don't really understand what you're saying here. Law firms don't look at your LSAT score. A 180 doesn't guarantee biglaw. There is no such thing as guaranteed biglaw.

If your point is just that someone who is unwilling to put in the time to improve a 164 is unlikely to put in the work to succeed in law school or in the legal profession, you might have a point.

This is a joke, right? A 164 is such a dreadful score in your book that no one could possibly succeed if that's what their aptitude is?

No, I actually think plenty of people with 164's are successful in law school and in the legal profession. (Full disclosure, I got a 164 on my second take. My first LSAT was higher.) I was more trying to understand Clearly's point. I think the rational thing for most people to do is probably to study and try to improve upon a 164, so maybe Clearly thinks a person who isn't willing to do that shouldn't be a lawyer? I don't know. I mean, clearly better LSAT scores will get you invited to more schools, with more scholarship money, than low LSAT scores, but I don't think the score does anything for you once you've matriculated.

[dolastas]

OP, what do you want to do with your career? "Big law" encompasses a huge number of markets and practice areas. If you want to clerk and then litigate in DC, maybe you should retake for HYS. If you want transactional work in a cheaper city than NYC, maybe you should think about Chicago/NU. And sure, if you just want any market-paying firm in NYC and you don't care whether it's Cravath or Holland & Knight, ED Penn or UVA will probably get you there. In other words, your goal shouldn't just be to get into a T14--it should be getting into a school that takes you where you want to go. And although it's a bit exaggerated, which T14 you attend definitely makes a difference.

And yes, I get that this isn't a response to your exact question, but good advice often involves telling people they're asking the wrong question.

I appreciate your response - and all others - even if my question isn't directly addressed. Thank you, the additional insight is valuable and is the kind of thing I need to hear in order to make my decision. I only took issue with the responses that dealt with how much better off I would be with a retake or how poor of a decision it is to ED, and this is only the case because I addressed both of these issues in the original post and made it clear that I specifically was not interested in hearing this. Those replies were not telling me anything new and were in no way helping me to decide which school I should ED, however crazy/illogical the TLS community may think that approach is, so they really had no place in the discussion.

[Clearly]

Lol thats part of it, sure. The other is that you just plain have better odds at biglaw from Harvard than GULC. And you'll only get into one of those with a 164, ED or otherwise. The reality is that the schools you get into with a 4.0 164 (ed or not) give worse odds at achieving your goal than the schools that accept 170 4.0s. As someone who retook at 164 for a much better score, if I had his GPA I'd be at Harvard/Stanford. Thinking that ED means you can throw money at a school and get biglaw just isn't correct, plenty of people at those schools strike out. Your best bet would be an outside shot at Penn if you are lucky and have a good app, which is relatively biglaw secure though people strike out, but at any of the schools I'd expect to accept you (GULC, maybe cornell, maybe NU if they need money) things get fuzzy and you stand a fair chance of not getting biglaw (Penn included). Get a 172 and go to Harvard and not only do you get to spend the same amount of money and be able to say Harvard, but you'd have to pretty royally screw up not to get BL.

[FluffMonster]

[Alan Grant]

I would retake and try to get into U Chicago with some scholarship money. No use in resigning yourself to sticker at Penn, UVA, GLUC, or any non HYS really. Indeed, if you don't think you can do better than a 164, what makes you think you will do well enough at any of these schools to get big law? And if you cannot get big law, you are presumably royally screwed. Yet even if you get big law, you are still looking at a mountain full of non-discharble debt and the possibility of losing the job before your debt is paid off. Yes, people do get laid off from big law, even competent people. But if you do get some scholarship money, maybe from Chicago, maybe from a lower t14 like Penn or UVA, you can mitigate both dangers, and put yourself in less danger of financial ruin. Big law will also be much more pleasant if your don't have 200K debt hanging over you.