2.65, want to go to T-14, T-20 school, softs? Forum

[kevgogators]

Here are the steps to your success:

1) Earn a Master's Degree with a 4.0 GPA
2) Join the military and serve for 4 years
3) Score a 180 on the LSAT

[03152016]

that t14 will almost certainly be at sticker
so unless you're rich or something, it's hard to justify

i saw some sub-3s get $$$ at wustl this cycle with high lsats
that might be your best bet depending on your goals

you should start prepping though and make a chances thread after you have a score
everything is speculative until you have numbers

eta: to answer your question more directly, focus on the lsat right now
see how far you get with self-study before going the course/tutoring route

[meezus]

that t14 will almost certainly be at sticker
so unless you're rich or something, it's hard to justify

i saw some sub-3s get $$$ at wustl this cycle with high lsats
that might be your best bet depending on your goals

you should start prepping though and make a chances thread after you have a score
everything is speculative until you have numbers

eta: to answer your question more directly, focus on the lsat right now
see how far you get with self-study before going the course/tutoring route

After looking at this doing more research, I'm realistically hoping to get into a top 30. But I'm definitely going to do the self study prep before investing the money in a tutoring program.

[03152016]

yeah you'll probably have some opportunities for $$/$$$ if you kill the lsat

maybe make a thread in the lsat prep forum and join one of the takers threads
that should get you off on the right foot

[unodostres]

Ranking is meaningless. You should target schools in areas that you want to work in.

Ex: lstscorereports.com for jobs
Mylsn.info for numbers

Study cuz your softs don't mean shit

[meezus]

Definitely going to do that, thanks Brut.

Ranking is meaningless. You should target schools in areas that you want to work in.

Ex: lstscorereports.com for jobs
Mylsn.info for numbers

Study cuz your softs don't mean shit

That's a very good point. I'd love to stay on the west coast if I could simply because that's where I'd like to live, preferably California. But I haven't traveled too much outside the west coast anyways (aside from overseas) so I'm not sure about other places. I just love the weather here lol.

[BigZuck]

Definitely going to do that, thanks Brut.

Ranking is meaningless. You should target schools in areas that you want to work in.

Ex: lstscorereports.com for jobs
Mylsn.info for numbers

Study cuz your softs don't mean shit

That's a very good point. I'd love to stay on the west coast if I could simply because that's where I'd like to live, preferably California. But I haven't traveled too much outside the west coast anyways (aside from overseas) so I'm not sure about other places. I just love the weather here lol.

By and large the only schools worth attending in CA are Berkeley, Stanford, UCLA, and USC (I might be convinced that others like Davis are ok for cheap and modest career goals). Unfortunately you're almost certainly going to have to go to school outside of CA even if you get a 180.

I agree that this is all speculative and not particularly useful at the moment because you seem to be deadset on going. Given that is the case, I would stick to the LSAT prep forum and devote all your time to that. Crush the LSAT, and then come back.

I would also give some serious thought to other career paths as law school will almost certainly be too expensive, even if you can get into a good school.

(Assuming you don't have a rich benefactor or something else paying your way, I also didn't read the original post in this thread because it was much too long)

[meezus]

I am giving thought to other career paths. Unfortunately, the ones I'm really interested in require higher education. And I don't blame you, I didn't expect people to read the whole thing but I'm not one to shorten my thoughts when it comes to asking for help about my life. I like to get it all out there. Whether you read the whole thing or not, I appreciate the input.

Call me what you like, but it seems crazy to me that my undergraduate GPA has done such irreparable damage with regard to admissions that this career, to many on this post, is completely out of reach for me. I'm not saying this to be defensive or trying to attack anyone based on me "not hearing what I want to hear" (some people on this post have taken what I've said personally and responded defensively); this is simply directed toward the law admissions process as a whole. Quite frankly, it's unfair and doesn't give those who have a stellar GPA a shot to achieve more. I understand there needs to be a standard, but I'm trying to do as much as I can to fix that, I don't expect or even want to skate by to achieve this. I'm willing to put as much work in as possible. I'm not asking to go to Harvard but a top 30, top 50 school is out of the question?

end rant.

[BigZuck]

Top 50 is probably not out of reach. But that's also a meaningless distinction, there are probably schools barely in the top 150 which are better than those in the top 50. All that matters is job placement into the types of jobs you're hoping for in the market you're gunning for. US News rankings don't really matter for the most part.

That being said, schools generally care about their rankings, and LSAT/GPA are the two biggest factors. So it's not surprising that they care about GPA. A really low GPA will preclude you from most good schools most likely and the ones you do get into you probably won't get worthwhile scholarship money because having you matriculate hurts them in the GPA category, even if you help them in the LSAT category. That's just the reality.

Also, as you said, schools have to have standards. They have to base admissions decisions off something, why not heavily favor undergraduate performance and performance on a standardized test? As Scott said there can be mitigating factors sometimes when one of those things are lacking, but for someone only a year or two out? I think weighing GPA heavily is totally fair.

[downbeat14]

.

[meezus]

I agree with that, but my problem comes in where those who do not fit in the higher GPA category, it seems as if they are doomed and there is no other option to redeem oneself, regardless if it is only a year or two out. I'm just saying I wish there was something I could do to substitute for that, another way to prove I am capable of handling the coursework. I know it doesn't matter what I think about the process but I'm just voicing my opinion. I guess it's pointless to argue about my view on the GPA thing because it seems that's just the way it is in the world of law school.

So just find another career? Maybe I'll just have to look into it. But I'm still going to study for and take the LSAT, then see what I can do from there. I want to see if it can be done, I see stories of people in my situation on this very forum with lower GPAs than mine, so I can't be the only crazy one. I highly doubt I have the lowest undergrad GPA of any applicant who has gotten into a decent law school.

[glitter178]

You have a chance, but all this speculation is pretty worthless until you get an LSAT score, and a damn good one at that. As for softs, I know only one person whose softs allowed him/ her to substantially outperform his/her numbers, and said softs were SO good, when we graduated LS, our metropolitan newspaper did a front page color spread on his/ her life story.

(With that said, you need a better reason for your shit GPA. Plenty of people can do better than 2.65 even with heavy partying or a full time job. Were you a hard science major from a foreign country?)

[meezus]

You have a chance, but all this speculation is pretty worthless until you get an LSAT score, and a damn good one at that. As for softs, I know only one person whose softs allowed him/ her to substantially outperform his/her numbers, and said softs were SO good, when we graduated LS, our metropolitan newspaper did a front page color spread on his/ her life story.

(With that said, you need a better reason for your shit GPA. Plenty of people can do better than 2.65 even with heavy partying or a full time job. Were you a hard science major from a foreign country?)

Hmm I get your point, but I'm going to have to disagree with your statement on GPA related to partying. I've seen much worse from those who goofed off the whole time. My group of friends and I had very similar GPAs, along with others who partied like we did. There wasn't a possible way to get a better GPA. I literally did not care and I figured at 19 years old if I could just walk across that stage and get my diploma, I had succeeded. Obviously this isn't the smartest mindset, but hey, I was 19 and chasing liquor and skirts.

I struggled with anxiety my second year into college which got me a 1.04 and a 1.8 in two quarters and I rarely attended class because of it, then only taking 10 credits the third quarter. But I can't rightfully say that was the main reason, because after I had gotten out of that, I still didn't do outstanding, grades were between 2.6 - 3.0, with my final two quarters being a 3.8 and 3.7. I was a sub-3.0 student because I simply didn't try and was immature. I know that's not good enough for an admissions committee to let me slide, but that's the truth. I'm out of that stage now, but it seems impossible to prove and with what I've read on here, the fact may be that I have matured a little too late with regard to law school.

[Iroh]

I agree with that, but my problem comes in where those who do not fit in the higher GPA category, it seems as if they are doomed and there is no other option to redeem oneself, regardless if it is only a year or two out. I'm just saying I wish there was something I could do to substitute for that, another way to prove I am capable of handling the coursework.

How would you prove that? By volunteering with AmeriCorps? How would that prove whether you can handle the coursework? Honestly, running the family business sounds much more impressive than any of that other stuff. That's a great point on your resume.

You seem to be looking for some magic job that you only need to do for a couple of years, that is accessible with your GPA and that will prove to the adcomms that you are T-whatever material. I really don't think there is one. You're shut out of the traditional prestigious jobs (finance, consulting) with your low GPA, and you don't seem all that keen on joining the military (which, if you're concerned about your personal statement, might provide you with a story or two).

I guess I'm missing the part where you've been unjustly denied something. You messed up undergrad and are unwilling to put in enough time to properly distance yourself from your GPA. Why do you think you deserve something better?

[meezus]

I agree with that, but my problem comes in where those who do not fit in the higher GPA category, it seems as if they are doomed and there is no other option to redeem oneself, regardless if it is only a year or two out. I'm just saying I wish there was something I could do to substitute for that, another way to prove I am capable of handling the coursework.

How would you prove that? By volunteering with AmeriCorps? How would that prove whether you can handle the coursework? Honestly, running the family business sounds much more impressive than any of that other stuff. That's a great point on your resume.

You seem to be looking for some magic job that you only need to do for a couple of years, that is accessible with your GPA and that will prove to the adcomms that you are T-whatever material. I really don't think there is one. You're shut out of the traditional prestigious jobs (finance, consulting) with your low GPA, and you don't seem all that keen on joining the military (which, if you're concerned about your personal statement, might provide you with a story or two).

I guess I'm missing the part where you've been unjustly denied something. You messed up undergrad and are unwilling to put in enough time to properly distance yourself from your GPA. Why do you think you deserve something better?

LOL I'm trying to figure out if you've been reading this post, or reading a different article and then responding on this one. Where did you get that? The whole point of this entire topic is for me to find something TO DISTANCE myself from my GPA and I AM willing to put all the time in to do that. And throughout my posts on here, I have admitted that I know I am not entitled to anything and I do not expect to be by any means, therefore I am most definitely not saying I was unjustly denied anything. Maybe I'm not sure what you mean, or you just like to argue. But you are right about one thing, I am not very keen on joining the military.

So according to you, I'm out of prestigious job opportunities as well as law school. With all due respect, I believe that you give too much credit to GPA in general. I know it matters at least 40% for law admissions, but you're essentially saying that you cannot be successful in a career without a good GPA.

The whole AmeriCorps thing was initially an idea to prove well-roundedness, not to prove I can handle coursework (since that is pretty much out the window, aside from getting the highest score on the LSAT). But throughout the course of people posting on here, it still seems like GPA and LSAT are the only things that matter, which I guess I'll have to say is fair. And even with scoring highly on the LSAT, the GPA is still going to be an unsolvable problem.

All I was asking for if there was anything I can do to boost other parts of my application if nothing can be done about my GPA. This is why my ideas for softs were brought up. But since it seems unanimous on this forum that softs don't matter at all, so far we've got acing the LSAT and lots of prayer. So we'll see how that works.

[meezus]

Also, would it help getting a post-bacc in something, getting amazing grades, then start law admissions?

[McAvoy]

Also, would it help getting a post-bacc in something, getting amazing grades, then start law admissions?

Nope. Your UG GPA is all that really matters, as we've established.

Seriously look into other career paths or, if you must be a lawyer, look into non-prestige-conscious legal careers. The latter won't be desirable though as you'll be working for a long time for an LSAT score, borrowing a ton of money, spending three years in school, and hustling like crazy for a chance at a job that (hopefully) pays $40K.

More than anything, your prelaw inputs determine the footing of your legal career. I'd like to think I was immature and partied irresponsibly and recklessly in UG, too, but, sub 2.0 for multiple semesters? Shit, man. You're not gonna be able to come back from that easily. But that's not the case in almost every other career path you could embark on right now. Make certain there's nothing else you're interested in.

[earthabides]

You have a chance, but all this speculation is pretty worthless until you get an LSAT score, and a damn good one at that. As for softs, I know only one person whose softs allowed him/ her to substantially outperform his/her numbers, and said softs were SO good, when we graduated LS, our metropolitan newspaper did a front page color spread on his/ her life story.

(With that said, you need a better reason for your shit GPA. Plenty of people can do better than 2.65 even with heavy partying or a full time job. Were you a hard science major from a foreign country?)

Hmm I get your point, but I'm going to have to disagree with your statement on GPA related to partying. I've seen much worse from those who goofed off the whole time. My group of friends and I had very similar GPAs, along with others who partied like we did. There wasn't a possible way to get a better GPA. I literally did not care and I figured at 19 years old if I could just walk across that stage and get my diploma, I had succeeded. Obviously this isn't the smartest mindset, but hey, I was 19 and chasing liquor and skirts.

I struggled with anxiety my second year into college which got me a 1.04 and a 1.8 in two quarters and I rarely attended class because of it, then only taking 10 credits the third quarter. But I can't rightfully say that was the main reason, because after I had gotten out of that, I still didn't do outstanding, grades were between 2.6 - 3.0, with my final two quarters being a 3.8 and 3.7. I was a sub-3.0 student because I simply didn't try and was immature. I know that's not good enough for an admissions committee to let me slide, but that's the truth. I'm out of that stage now, but it seems impossible to prove and with what I've read on here, the fact may be that I have matured a little too late with regard to law school.

You can get 3.8+ without going to any class and being hungover most of the week. If you didn't find undergraduate extremely easy I wouldn't hold out for scoring 170+ on the LSAT. Actually, in general I wouldn't rely on scoring 170+ on the lsat.

[pancakes3]

I guess the older malcontents on this board are busy or tired of being assholes?

1) Nobody cares about the reasons behind your GPA.
2) It's all empty rhetoric until you take the LSAT.
3) Barring a 170+, you won't even get into a T14.
4) There are diminishing returns on anything above 75th percentile so I really don't foresee any scholly from a T14 even if you get a 180.
5) The LSAT may be learnable but so is pretty much everything. The MCATs are even MORE learnable. A 170 is in the 97th percentile.
6) You *might* be able to pull off $$$ or $$$$ from a T2 with a rocking LSAT but you don't have work experience, and that's not what you're looking for.
7) People don't magically flip a switch and become good students once they get to law school. Everyone is a model student for the first 2 weeks. There are *more* drinking opportunities in LS than in undergrad since it's legal.

[Attax]

You can get 3.8+ without going to any class and being hungover most of the week. If you didn't find undergraduate extremely easy I wouldn't hold out for scoring 170+ on the LSAT. Actually, in general I wouldn't rely on scoring 170+ on the lsat.

This differs from major to major and is terribly unwarranted advice/ad hominem anyway.

OP: as someone who had a GPA similar to yours, the only option is the LSAT. As has been said: if you're going to make this happen that is the only way to do it. Don't worry about other means of making adcomms like you because the LSAT is all that matters at this point.

[downbeat14]

.

[meezus]

You can get 3.8+ without going to any class and being hungover most of the week. If you didn't find undergraduate extremely easy I wouldn't hold out for scoring 170+ on the LSAT. Actually, in general I wouldn't rely on scoring 170+ on the lsat.

I'm afraid we're going to have a difference of opinion here as I'm not sure you understand exactly what my situation was. I didn't try. I don't know how much more clear I can make that. It wasn't JUST partying. I was interested other things than class; making money and doing all sorts of reckless sh*t. It's not like I was partying and making room for studying. I didn't care for school and was getting into run-ins with the law (nothing terrible ever got on my record); I wasn't necessarily a model citizen.

But regardless for the reason, it doesn't matter. As far as the GPA goes, it is what it is, if you will.

And of course there are more drinking opportunities when you are in law school due to age, but when you are underage, you have the urge to do it more and are MUCH more reckless with it. It's fun to drink when you can't. So I'm going to have to disagree with that too.

I find it hard to believe I am COMPLETELY out of the running for a decent school that will lead me to have a good job (not necessarily an acceptance to Harvard a job with a top law firm starting at over 150k per year). There's students I know at the University of Washington, Seattle University and other regional schools that are doing great.

Thanks for the advice guys, I'm gonna do some more research.

[meezus]

1. No one, including adcomms, care if you have a "problem" with the way things are. Unfortunately, it's not up to you.

2. Ok, you're voicing your opinion. Great... I thought you were looking for advice here, not looking for a microphone to whine about things you can't change. Therapy is a good way to do that if you really need that, or just cry to your SO.

3. This is the best option based on probability. Yes, if you are able to do better than almost everyone who takes this test, then there is a slight chance that you'll be able to get into a decent school and pay them a lot of money for the privilege.

4. We're not saying it is impossible, just HIGHLY unlikely. Look, your GPA demonstrates that you aren't able to do school-realted things at the highest possible level all the time (or really it seems at all throughout your UG... that's really low, not just a little below par).

Just in terms of chances, most people trying to get this kind of score on the LSAT will NEVER be able to do it. That's why only 3% of people score in the 170s... it's hard to do. The people who you see on here that were able to do that spent months and months drilling and sweating over LSAT problems, and probably had some strong natural abilities as well.

I teach this test full-time, so I've seen the range of ability levels and plenty of students that are trying to use the LSAT to compensate for a low GPA (none that low though that I know of). The vast majority either can't or won't be able to make it to that level of scoring. And the fact that you are on here arguing about your opinions and feelings rather than studying right now is weakening your case further in my eyes. My students that do well don't bitch and complain, they study.

Prove us wrong, put in the work, get the score, and people on here will try to help you. Until then you're just asking us for wild speculation.

Either blindness is genetic or you are an idiot. Did I not just acknowledge that I know that no one cares? Why do you care if I voice my opinion? I like to hear others responses to my opinion, not how "no one gives a damn" because I ALREADY KNEW THAT. I could give a damn if you teach prep for the damn bar exam and if you think my case is weak; you are every stereotype I've heard about the elitist law student. I said this was a rant and you don't need to read it or respond to it if you think I'm bitching. I'm just trying to get advice and express my opinion, not whine or cry. You come off as a d*ck (therapy? that's cute) which leads me to believe you weren't shown much affection as a child or no one came to your elementary soccer games.

[BigZuck]

OP- you were given two excellent pieces of advice:

1. Don't go to law school, find another career. Your GPA doesn't preclude you from being a lawyer neccessarily (and you could be the next Ruth Bader Ginsburg for all we know), but its extremely unlikely that you will get into an acceptable school at an acceptable price. Those are just the breaks, you need to hate the game on that one player. Ad coms care about GPA. But that's ok, there are lots of other careers out there.

2. If you're hell bent on going, you NEED to crush the LSAT. Only way you can do that is to stop complaining, arguing, venting, stating an opinion, whatever it is you're doing, and go study for the damn thing.

That's really all TLS can do for you at this time.

[meezus]

^ I had come to terms with that and decided that's what I'm going to do. I've been trying to end the topic but some people keep posting things that I have already said, so I'm just responding and in turn having to reexplain myself which makes it look like I'm complaining, but I'm really not. I'm totally fine with the way things are as far as GPA go and what not. I may not necessarily like or agree with it, but I completely understand it. And I've also learned that expressing slight opinion on TLS is seen as crying or whining and is a cardinal sin. Which is why no one likes lawyers (lol).

But in the end, thanks for the advice guys. WIll be posting after LSAT!