Please advise: Dream is HYSCCNMVP, but GPA is 3.3 LSAT 173 Forum

[hdsoc]

I had significant WE, which helped, but here were my results:
Michigan: In, w/ $$
Georgetown: In
UCLA: In
NYU: In ED
Fordham: In w/ $
WASHU: In
Didn't get to hear back from anywhere else, given the ED.

I missed this post. Congrats! Good to know that you got in NYU with ED. Where among MVP is my best ED bet?

Hmm, I think with a well-crafted application you'd have a very good chance with any of them. Rather than decide that way I'd advise that you do some research and see which appeals most. If you want to end up in NY, I'd probably go with UPenn, but that's a personal opinion. Alternatively, you still have a shot at getting some money out of Michigan w/ ED, so that's something to keep in mind.

[Tiago Splitter]

ED Penn

[justicefishy]

ED Penn

+1

[Geneva]

how credible is this chart? also, does anyone have data on %ages of graduates of top schools that are "employed" due to paid fellowships from their alma mater? apparently it's 10+% at uva, gulc, and possibly mich. assuming that grades are mostly random (the jury is still out on this one) , going to these schools is like flipping a coin toss re:future earnings.

[ahnhub]

how credible is this chart? also, does anyone have data on %ages of graduates of top schools that are "employed" due to paid fellowships from their alma mater? apparently it's 10+% at uva, gulc, and possibly mich. assuming that grades are mostly random (the jury is still out on this one) , going to these schools is like flipping a coin toss re:future earnings.

If you're dead set on making 160K and you think going to UVA or Michigan gives you nothing better than a coin toss chance, law school is probably a bad idea. I think it's much better than a coin toss chance--something in the realm of not guaranteed, but very likely if you keep your wits about you.

The 10% figure you're referring to happened for c/o 2010, which got hammered with no-offers and dealing with their job search right as the crash was happening. I'm sure most schools, including elite schools, had to offer many more school-sponsored post-grad jobs that year, although some more than others. Historically most schools have had programs like that, although at the T-14 only a couple graduates seem to have needed to use it pre-crash.

I don't know if grades are random, but the way the curve works end up putting a lot of people right around median. Everything I've read here about Biglaw interviewing indicates very strong grades can snag you a job in and of themselves, but median-ish is median-ish, whether you're slightly above or below it. E.g.: if the median is a 3.3, a 3.4 isn't automatically going to beat out a 3.2--very far from it. If the 3.2 is more attractive in other ways they may easily do better than the 3.4.

[005618502]

how credible is this chart? also, does anyone have data on %ages of graduates of top schools that are "employed" due to paid fellowships from their alma mater? apparently it's 10+% at uva, gulc, and possibly mich. assuming that grades are mostly random (the jury is still out on this one) , going to these schools is like flipping a coin toss re:future earnings.

If you're dead set on making 160K and you think going to UVA or Michigan gives you nothing better than a coin toss chance, law school is probably a bad idea. I think it's much better than a coin toss chance--something in the realm of not guaranteed, but very likely if you keep your wits about you.

The 10% figure you're referring to happened for c/o 2010, which got hammered with no-offers and dealing with their job search right as the crash was happening. I'm sure most schools, including elite schools, had to offer many more school-sponsored post-grad jobs that year, although some more than others. Historically most schools have had programs like that, although at the T-14 only a couple graduates seem to have needed to use it pre-crash.

I don't know if grades are random, but the way the curve works end up putting a lot of people right around median. Everything I've read here about Biglaw interviewing indicates very strong grades can snag you a job in and of themselves, but median-ish is median-ish, whether you're slightly above or below it. E.g.: if the median is a 3.3, a 3.4 isn't automatically going to beat out a 3.2--very far from it. If the 3.2 is more attractive in other ways they may easily do better than the 3.4.

This is an interesting thought. Would anyone like to weigh in on this?

I think it makes sense. Especially for those with WE or good interview skills.

[Airknight]

how credible is this chart? also, does anyone have data on %ages of graduates of top schools that are "employed" due to paid fellowships from their alma mater? apparently it's 10+% at uva, gulc, and possibly mich. assuming that grades are mostly random (the jury is still out on this one) , going to these schools is like flipping a coin toss re:future earnings.

If you're dead set on making 160K and you think going to UVA or Michigan gives you nothing better than a coin toss chance, law school is probably a bad idea. I think it's much better than a coin toss chance--something in the realm of not guaranteed, but very likely if you keep your wits about you.

The 10% figure you're referring to happened for c/o 2010, which got hammered with no-offers and dealing with their job search right as the crash was happening. I'm sure most schools, including elite schools, had to offer many more school-sponsored post-grad jobs that year, although some more than others. Historically most schools have had programs like that, although at the T-14 only a couple graduates seem to have needed to use it pre-crash.

I don't know if grades are random, but the way the curve works end up putting a lot of people right around median. Everything I've read here about Biglaw interviewing indicates very strong grades can snag you a job in and of themselves, but median-ish is median-ish, whether you're slightly above or below it. E.g.: if the median is a 3.3, a 3.4 isn't automatically going to beat out a 3.2--very far from it. If the 3.2 is more attractive in other ways they may easily do better than the 3.4.

This is an interesting thought. Would anyone like to weigh in on this?

I think it makes sense. Especially for those with WE or good interview skills.

I'm a 0L. But I spoke with alumni from my undergrad who are at or already graduated from HYSCCNMVPDNGC, and their opinions are like this:
(1) It's very stressful at CCNMVPDNGC in terms of getting a BigLaw offer because of the intense competition for grades.
(2) Don't even think you'd even land at the median. It's very risky and professor-dependent at CCNMVPDNGC.
(3) In this tough economy, going to CCNMVPDNGC doesn't guarantee a big law job. But top percent at CCNMVPGDNGC has a good shot at it.
(4) If you can, try everything to get into HYS because there is no letter grade, just only high pass/pass/fail. So everyone from HYS looks good.

Not sure if this logic is right, but I was so advised.

[Geneva]

how credible is this chart? also, does anyone have data on %ages of graduates of top schools that are "employed" due to paid fellowships from their alma mater? apparently it's 10+% at uva, gulc, and possibly mich. assuming that grades are mostly random (the jury is still out on this one) , going to these schools is like flipping a coin toss re:future earnings.

If you're dead set on making 160K and you think going to UVA or Michigan gives you nothing better than a coin toss chance, law school is probably a bad idea. I think it's much better than a coin toss chance--something in the realm of not guaranteed, but very likely if you keep your wits about you.

The 10% figure you're referring to happened for c/o 2010, which got hammered with no-offers and dealing with their job search right as the crash was happening. I'm sure most schools, including elite schools, had to offer many more school-sponsored post-grad jobs that year, although some more than others. Historically most schools have had programs like that, although at the T-14 only a couple graduates seem to have needed to use it pre-crash.

This is an interesting thought. Would anyone like to weigh in on this?

I think it makes sense. Especially for those with WE or good interview skills.

I'm a 0L. But I spoke with alumni from my undergrad who are at or already graduated from HYSCCNMVPDNGC, and their opinions are like this:
(1) It's very stressful at CCNMVPDNGC in terms of getting a BigLaw offer because of the intense competition for grades.
(2) Don't even think you'd even land at the median. It's very risky and professor-dependent at CCNMVPDNGC.
(3) In this tough economy, going to CCNMVPDNGC doesn't guarantee a big law job. But top percent at CCNMVPGDNGC has a good shot at it.
(4) If you can, try everything to get into HYS because there is no letter grade, just only high pass/pass/fail. So everyone from HYS looks good.

Not sure if this logic is right, but I was so advised.

no letter grades at harvard or stanford? wow

[Tiago Splitter]

I'm a 0L. But I spoke with alumni from my undergrad who are at or already graduated from HYSCCNMVPDNGC, and their opinions are like this:
(1) It's very stressful at CCNMVPDNGC in terms of getting a BigLaw offer because of the intense competition for grades.
(2) Don't even think you'd even land at the median. It's very risky and professor-dependent at CCNMVPDNGC.
(3) In this tough economy, going to CCNMVPDNGC doesn't guarantee a big law job. But top percent at CCNMVPGDNGC has a good shot at it.
(4) If you can, try everything to get into HYS because there is no letter grade, just only high pass/pass/fail. So everyone from HYS looks good.

Not sure if this logic is right, but I was so advised.

What do you mean you don't know if the logic is right? You don't know if it's a good idea to try and land HYS?

Let's be clear: People from HYS don't look good because they have no letter grades, they look good because they come from Harvard, Yale, and Stanford. Berkeley doesn't have letter grades either and their placement comes in far behind HYS.

As for needing to be "top percent" from CCNMVPDNCG to have a good shot at Big Law, what percent is that?

[094320]

..

[Geneva]

no letter grades at harvard or stanford? wow

This isn't as great as you'd think. There's Dean's Scholar, Honors, Pass, Low Pass. Low passes are ugly, and for top firms you need more Honors than Passes. It blurs the distinction somewhat, but it ends up making your interview matter a lot more, which is good if you're an above-average interviewer, and really problematic if you're not. I benefit because I do interview well, but I'm not actually all that much in favor of it.

Ah, that makes sense. Is this the case at both Harvard and Stanford? Yale's system sounds ideal...just like their loan repayment system. Oh well.

[bk1]

I'm a 0L. But I spoke with alumni from my undergrad who are at or already graduated from HYSCCNMVPDNGC, and their opinions are like this:
(1) It's very stressful at CCNMVPDNGC in terms of getting a BigLaw offer because of the intense competition for grades.
(2) Don't even think you'd even land at the median. It's very risky and professor-dependent at CCNMVPDNGC.
(3) In this tough economy, going to CCNMVPDNGC doesn't guarantee a big law job. But top percent at CCNMVPGDNGC has a good shot at it.
(4) If you can, try everything to get into HYS because there is no letter grade, just only high pass/pass/fail. So everyone from HYS looks good.

Not sure if this logic is right, but I was so advised.

My response would be:

1. This isn't true at NU. I mean of course we're on a curve but I wouldn't call grade competition "intense." Everyone is just trying to do their best. I can see trying to get biglaw as stressful (haven't done OCI yet) but that's more in the sense that for a lot of people they've put all their eggs in the biglaw basket for paying off sticker price debt (LRAP-qualifying jobs aren't just backups).

2. You have a 50% chance of ending above median. You also have a 50% chance of ending up below median. Depends on whether you view a coinflip as "very risky." (ETA: I'm not even sure I agree that grading is necessarily professor-dependent. I'm sure people in the top 10% and bottom 10% would disagree. I'm up in the air on this one but I don't disagree with the general premise that grading can feel arbitrary.)

3. Of course.

4. Employers can still rank students based on the number of H's or whatever they get so it's not like their grading systems completely obscure rough class rank estimations. "Everyone looks good" because of HYS prestige, not because of they don't use a 4.0 scale (see Berkeley). That being said it still might be tough for people at the bottom of the class at these schools (easier than bottom of the class elsewhere of course), maybe moreso at H due to its large class size. I agree that people try to get into HYS if they can, but if they do that doesn't mean they shouldn't take a full ride at a lower T14 school over it.

ETA: Mostly scooped by Tiago/ATL.

[094320]

..

[Geneva]

no letter grades at harvard or stanford? wow

This isn't as great as you'd think. There's Dean's Scholar, Honors, Pass, Low Pass. Low passes are ugly, and for top firms you need more Honors than Passes. It blurs the distinction somewhat, but it ends up making your interview matter a lot more, which is good if you're an above-average interviewer, and really problematic if you're not. I benefit because I do interview well, but I'm not actually all that much in favor of it.

Ah, that makes sense. Is this the case at both Harvard and Stanford? Yale's system sounds ideal...just like their loan repayment system. Oh well.

I can't speak for Stanford. I mean, Harvard is still strong, but that's more the merits of it's Harvard, not because of our grading system.

Right. What worries me is that even Harvard grads are having trouble finding employment. It seems to me that having a pass/pass honors grading system would make interviews more important than grades for most graduates (obvs ppl at the tails will either win or lose depending on grades) and take away some of the pressure in law school

[094320]

..

[kennethellenparcell]

Hey OP. Fellow splitter here. My GPA is about yours, but my LSAT is 175+. I only applied to H because I felt that I had the best (albeit extremely slim) chance there out of HYS. I am expecting a rejection any day now.

3.3 is tough. I would say that you are probably out at HYS. If the LSAT was a few points higher, you would probably get a WL at Columbia (which by all accounts, equals a reject anyway). Based on my experience and scouring LSN, with your current LSAT, probably also a WL at Chicago and NYU. Better chance of getting off the WL at NYU than at Chicago.

Depending on softs, you will probably get MVP. To maximize your chances, write Why X statements for MVP. They love them. But seriously do your research, don't just half ass them.

ETA: Also based on your ambitions, I think Chicago (Booth)/Penn (Wharton)/NU (Kellogg) would be the best fits for you. Get a couple years work experience if possible and aim for the JD/MBA perhaps.

[Airknight]

I'm a 0L. But I spoke with alumni from my undergrad who are at or already graduated from HYSCCNMVPDNGC, and their opinions are like this:
(1) It's very stressful at CCNMVPDNGC in terms of getting a BigLaw offer because of the intense competition for grades.
(2) Don't even think you'd even land at the median. It's very risky and professor-dependent at CCNMVPDNGC.
(3) In this tough economy, going to CCNMVPDNGC doesn't guarantee a big law job. But top percent at CCNMVPGDNGC has a good shot at it.
(4) If you can, try everything to get into HYS because there is no letter grade, just only high pass/pass/fail. So everyone from HYS looks good.

Not sure if this logic is right, but I was so advised.

What do you mean you don't know if the logic is right? You don't know if it's a good idea to try and land HYS?

Let's be clear: People from HYS don't look good because they have no letter grades, they look good because they come from Harvard, Yale, and Stanford. Berkeley doesn't have letter grades either and their placement comes in far behind HYS.

As for needing to be "top percent" from CCNMVPDNCG to have a good shot at Big Law, what percent is that?

You are right. Thanks for correcting me.

[Airknight]

Hey OP. Fellow splitter here. My GPA is about yours, but my LSAT is 175+. I only applied to H because I felt that I had the best (albeit extremely slim) chance there out of HYS. I am expecting a rejection any day now.

3.3 is tough. I would say that you are probably out at HYS. If the LSAT was a few points higher, you would probably get a WL at Columbia (which by all accounts, equals a reject anyway). Based on my experience and scouring LSN, with your current LSAT, probably also a WL at Chicago and NYU. Better chance of getting off the WL at NYU than at Chicago.

Depending on softs, you will probably get MVP. To maximize your chances, write Why X statements for MVP. They love them. But seriously do your research, don't just half ass them.

ETA: Also based on your ambitions, I think Chicago (Booth)/Penn (Wharton)/NU (Kellogg) would be the best fits for you. Get a couple years work experience if possible and aim for the JD/MBA perhaps.

Good luck with your Harvard application!

So here's what I'll do: apply to Harvard, but realistically ED to Penn. The posters in this thread have convinced me out of MVP, Penn is the best for me. I'm also very interested in Penn JD/MBA.

[Geneva]

I'm also very interested in Penn JD/MBA.

GOOD DECISION