159/3.26 Forum

[rad lulz]

Lol you guys are all a feisty little bunch. Some truly great and valid points all things considered. If your skills at oration match your internet blogging abilities then maybe there's hope for the profession after all. Agree mostly w/ tFleming's comment about the cut-off:

At any point where the debt you must take on to attend the school will likely not justify the outcome. But it's not as simple as just saying everything after X number is shit.

Anyway, thanks for the morning entertainment. Can't wait to look back on this thread in five years.

It's funny you mention oration, because oration is such a small part of what lawyers actually do, and probably like half of my graduating class will do transactional work, where that will never do orating.

[JDYesPlease]

Lol you guys are all a feisty little bunch. Some truly great and valid points all things considered. If your skills at oration match your internet blogging abilities then maybe there's hope for the profession after all. Agree mostly w/ tFleming's comment about the cut-off:

At any point where the debt you must take on to attend the school will likely not justify the outcome. But it's not as simple as just saying everything after X number is shit.

Anyway, thanks for the morning entertainment. Can't wait to look back on this thread in five years.

It's funny you mention oration, because oration is such a small part of what lawyers actually do, and probably like half of my graduating class will do transactional work, where that will never do orating.

Oh? What about networking? Isn't that an important skill in lawyering? Don't you need oratory skills for that? Newsflash law is a culture where you have to be social brah

[vpintz]

Lol you guys are all a feisty little bunch. Some truly great and valid points all things considered. If your skills at oration match your internet blogging abilities then maybe there's hope for the profession after all. Agree mostly w/ tFleming's comment about the cut-off:

At any point where the debt you must take on to attend the school will likely not justify the outcome. But it's not as simple as just saying everything after X number is shit.

Anyway, thanks for the morning entertainment. Can't wait to look back on this thread in five years.

It's funny you mention oration, because oration is such a small part of what lawyers actually do, and probably like half of my graduating class will do transactional work, where that will never do orating.

Oh? What about networking? Isn't that an important skill in lawyering? Don't you need oratory skills for that? Newsflash law is a culture where you have to be social brah

tso uppity.

[TheZoid]

Lol you guys are all a feisty little bunch. Some truly great and valid points all things considered. If your skills at oration match your internet blogging abilities then maybe there's hope for the profession after all. Agree mostly w/ tFleming's comment about the cut-off:

At any point where the debt you must take on to attend the school will likely not justify the outcome. But it's not as simple as just saying everything after X number is shit.

Anyway, thanks for the morning entertainment. Can't wait to look back on this thread in five years.

It's funny you mention oration, because oration is such a small part of what lawyers actually do, and probably like half of my graduating class will do transactional work, where that will never do orating.

Oh? What about networking? Isn't that an important skill in lawyering? Don't you need oratory skills for that? Newsflash law is a culture where you have to be social brah

Good luck with your decision and utterly unreasonable rationalization thereof, brah.

[JDYesPlease]

Lol you guys are all a feisty little bunch. Some truly great and valid points all things considered. If your skills at oration match your internet blogging abilities then maybe there's hope for the profession after all. Agree mostly w/ tFleming's comment about the cut-off:

At any point where the debt you must take on to attend the school will likely not justify the outcome. But it's not as simple as just saying everything after X number is shit.

Anyway, thanks for the morning entertainment. Can't wait to look back on this thread in five years.

It's funny you mention oration, because oration is such a small part of what lawyers actually do, and probably like half of my graduating class will do transactional work, where that will never do orating.

Oh? What about networking? Isn't that an important skill in lawyering? Don't you need oratory skills for that? Newsflash law is a culture where you have to be social brah

Good luck with your decision and utterly unreasonable rationalization thereof, brah.

So you disagree with my comment that law is a social culture?

[JCFindley]

I am about as far away from an elitist as you can get on here, but the people posting on here do have valid points....

It is not that it cannot be done at a TT or TTT school and not all schools that take your numbers are bottom feeders....

When it comes down to it, there are any number of strong state schools that I would go to with those numbers IF I was in fact happy with their placement in the area, I wanted to live there, I had ties there and I wouldn't go int more debt than I could reasonably expect to be able to pay off.....

Where that debt level is varies with the market you can actually expect to tap from that school. The University of Arkansas is a good school if you want to practice in AR but the legal market there is crap when it comes to pay. For me, I would need a lot of $$$ to go there even if I wanted to work in the state. Now Rutgers N is around the same cost as AR but the jobs I could reasonably expect to get being average there pay better. (Of course it costs more to live there too.....) So I wouldn't need as much $ at RU-N as I would at AR to be comfortable attending....

It really all comes down to not taking on more debt than you can actually pay..... There are plenty of schools that are not bottom feeders that you could get into but some are worth the costs of admissions while others are iffy depending on the debt load and the pay in the market they feed......

[rickgrimes69]

Quality flame 9/10 would read again

[brewery33]

Message to original poster:

No business comes without risk. If you are a pussy, then the legal field is not for you. Join a labor union or work for the government if this is the case.

Take into consideration that most of the naysayers on this site are going hide under the guise of giving you "intelligent advice", but no one is a number and if you ask a real attorney what their LSAT score was, they will probably not remember or just punch you in the face and tell you to get the fuck over yourself and learn how to practice.

Also remember, this is the internet and people that hang out in forums telling others that their ideas are stupid, aren't out there hustling and getting it. (disclaimer noted at bottom of post)

I know plenty of attorneys that attended regional schools, and gasp, schools out of the top 14, that lead very pleasant lives. Some of them even had to pay full price for law school. The moral of the story is, that no one is any more special than the next person. If you believe in yourself you can do anything you want. I think I remember some stupid fucker saying something like this:

"Life can be much broader once you discover one simple fact: Everything around you that you call life was made up by people that were no smarter than you and you can change it, you can influence it, you can build your own things that other people can use.

Once you learn that, you'll never be the same again."

I think his name was Steve Jobs. (I know what a fucking loser, didn't even graduate from HYS)

Original poster, my advice is to make your own decision. Take forums with a grain of salt. Debt isn't the end of the world, because money isn't even real. And spare me the horror stories of law students tricked by the scams, every trade has its winners and losers.

PS I know it is ironic that I am posting vitriol for forum posting, but I just wanted you to know that it is possible to do what you want to do, that is if you really believe you want to do it.

[TheZoid]

So you disagree with my comment that law is a social culture?

I think your missing the point champ.

Message to original poster:

No business comes without risk. If you are a pussy, then the legal field is not for you. Join a labor union or work for the government if this is the case.

Take into consideration that most of the naysayers on this site are going hide under the guise of giving you "intelligent advice", but no one is a number and if you ask a real attorney what their LSAT score was, they will probably not remember or just punch you in the face and tell you to get the fuck over yourself and learn how to practice.

Also remember, this is the internet and people that hang out in forums telling others that their ideas are stupid, aren't out there hustling and getting it. (disclaimer noted at bottom of post)

I know plenty of attorneys that attended regional schools, and gasp, schools out of the top 14, that lead very pleasant lives. Some of them even had to pay full price for law school. The moral of the story is, that no one is any more special than the next person. If you believe in yourself you can do anything you want. I think I remember some stupid fucker saying something like this:

"Life can be much broader once you discover one simple fact: Everything around you that you call life was made up by people that were no smarter than you and you can change it, you can influence it, you can build your own things that other people can use.

Once you learn that, you'll never be the same again."

I think his name was Steve Jobs. (I know what a fucking loser, didn't even graduate from HYS)

Original poster, my advice is to make your own decision. Take forums with a grain of salt. Debt isn't the end of the world, because money isn't even real. And spare me the horror stories of law students tricked by the scams, every trade has its winners and losers.

PS I know it is ironic that I am posting vitriol for forum posting, but I just wanted you to know that it is possible to do what you want to do, that is if you really believe you want to do it.

Lol, try telling this to someone who is in $200k+ of non-dischargeable debt. What the fuck are you talking about?

[JDYesPlease]

So you disagree with my comment that law is a social culture?

I think your missing the point champ.

Message to original poster:

No business comes without risk. If you are a pussy, then the legal field is not for you. Join a labor union or work for the government if this is the case.

Take into consideration that most of the naysayers on this site are going hide under the guise of giving you "intelligent advice", but no one is a number and if you ask a real attorney what their LSAT score was, they will probably not remember or just punch you in the face and tell you to get the fuck over yourself and learn how to practice.

Also remember, this is the internet and people that hang out in forums telling others that their ideas are stupid, aren't out there hustling and getting it. (disclaimer noted at bottom of post)

I know plenty of attorneys that attended regional schools, and gasp, schools out of the top 14, that lead very pleasant lives. Some of them even had to pay full price for law school. The moral of the story is, that no one is any more special than the next person. If you believe in yourself you can do anything you want. I think I remember some stupid fucker saying something like this:

"Life can be much broader once you discover one simple fact: Everything around you that you call life was made up by people that were no smarter than you and you can change it, you can influence it, you can build your own things that other people can use.

Once you learn that, you'll never be the same again."

I think his name was Steve Jobs. (I know what a fucking loser, didn't even graduate from HYS)

Original poster, my advice is to make your own decision. Take forums with a grain of salt. Debt isn't the end of the world, because money isn't even real. And spare me the horror stories of law students tricked by the scams, every trade has its winners and losers.

PS I know it is ironic that I am posting vitriol for forum posting, but I just wanted you to know that it is possible to do what you want to do, that is if you really believe you want to do it.

Lol, try telling this to someone who is in $200k+ of non-dischargeable debt. What the fuck are you talking about?

#1) What do you mean I'm missing the point? You bolded my comment saying that law is a social culture, then you insinuated that my rationalization was off. What point was I missing?

#2) I wouldn't borrow $200K for a law degree. That's utterly insane. Like I said I have money saved up and also have other available resources.

[dowu]

[rad lulz]

Lol you guys are all a feisty little bunch. Some truly great and valid points all things considered. If your skills at oration match your internet blogging abilities then maybe there's hope for the profession after all. Agree mostly w/ tFleming's comment about the cut-off:

At any point where the debt you must take on to attend the school will likely not justify the outcome. But it's not as simple as just saying everything after X number is shit.

Anyway, thanks for the morning entertainment. Can't wait to look back on this thread in five years.

It's funny you mention oration, because oration is such a small part of what lawyers actually do, and probably like half of my graduating class will do transactional work, where that will never do orating.

Oh? What about networking? Isn't that an important skill in lawyering? Don't you need oratory skills for that? Newsflash law is a culture where you have to be social brah

Oration is not the same as being social. I'll let you look it up.

[JDYesPlease]

Lol you guys are all a feisty little bunch. Some truly great and valid points all things considered. If your skills at oration match your internet blogging abilities then maybe there's hope for the profession after all. Agree mostly w/ tFleming's comment about the cut-off:

At any point where the debt you must take on to attend the school will likely not justify the outcome. But it's not as simple as just saying everything after X number is shit.

Anyway, thanks for the morning entertainment. Can't wait to look back on this thread in five years.

It's funny you mention oration, because oration is such a small part of what lawyers actually do, and probably like half of my graduating class will do transactional work, where that will never do orating.

Oh? What about networking? Isn't that an important skill in lawyering? Don't you need oratory skills for that? Newsflash law is a culture where you have to be social brah

Oration is not the same as being social. I'll let you look it up.

You got my point though.

[TheZoid]

The point that you're missing is that you think being social is going to get you a job. Sure, it helps, but I wouldn't go to rinky dink U hoping that "being social" will get you a job. The other comment was to the other poster, who stated that "debt is not a big deal" and "money isn't even real."

[JDYesPlease]

The point that you're missing is that you think being social is going to get you a job.

Dude, I never said that and don't even think I gave off that impression. You make it sound as if I think "being social" is all I would rely on in terms of the job search. That's just flat out not the case. Even still, that's not to say that law isn't a social culture. Not that I'd be a candidate for biglaw coming from a TT (not even interested), but I've always been under the impression that larger firms want the whole package in terms of employment candidates, and social skills are a big part of that. I know that large firms in DC court their summer associates by taking them out to happy hours and dinners at fancy restaurants in DuPont, and while they are trying to impress their future rainmakers, they also gauge whether or not they'd be a good fit...i.e. able to hold an intelligent conversation with a stranger and able to drink socially without getting plastered and making the firm look bad.

Can't believe I had to justify a small quip I made about oration. Snowballed into something completely off from original topic.

[JohnDorian]

-

[vpintz]

Who the hell do you people think you are to barrage this guy with insults and tell him he won't be successful???

With his numbers on law school predictor he has a decent shot at T100s, and there are plenty of people who graduate from regional schools and do fine. He's said that he feels his LSAT score is his peak, and there's nothing he can do about his GPA. Stop bullying with your delusional elitism just because you are going to better schools.

The thread started asking for chances at schools. Now that he's in, there's no reason to continue to attack him for a decision he's already made in his mind and feels confident in. If your goal is to make him change his mind acting like asses isn't going to make him listen to you.

Grow up.

he mad.

[JohnDorian]

-

[rad lulz]

Who the hell do you people think you are to barrage this guy with insults and tell him he won't be successful???

With his numbers on law school predictor he has a decent shot at T100s, and there are plenty of people who graduate from regional schools and do fine. He's said that he feels his LSAT score is his peak, and there's nothing he can do about his GPA. Stop bullying with your delusional elitism just because you are going to better schools.

The thread started asking for chances at schools. Now that he's in, there's no reason to continue to attack him for a decision he's already made in his mind and feels confident in. If your goal is to make him change his mind acting like asses isn't going to make him listen to you.

Grow up.

These threads always go like this:

OP says: I want to attend X mediocre regional school
We say: Be careful because attending X school or a school that your scores can get you into because they have middling job prospects and high debt
You say: But someone can do well from a mediocre regional school

This ignores the fact that A) no one is ever saying you can't and B) it's still not a great idea.

You forgot the part where people conflate elitism w a solid chance at a legal job.

[TheZoid]

Who the hell do you people think you are to barrage this guy with insults and tell him he won't be successful???

With his numbers on law school predictor he has a decent shot at T100s, and there are plenty of people who graduate from regional schools and do fine. He's said that he feels his LSAT score is his peak, and there's nothing he can do about his GPA. Stop bullying with your delusional elitism just because you are going to better schools.

The thread started asking for chances at schools. Now that he's in, there's no reason to continue to attack him for a decision he's already made in his mind and feels confident in. If your goal is to make him change his mind acting like asses isn't going to make him listen to you.

Grow up.

Lol, if only that were meaningful.

[2012JayDee]

So then where is the cut-off?

At any point where the debt you must take on to attend the school will likely not justify the outcome. But it's not as simple as just saying everything after X number is shit.

And this is just for risk/reward.

If I actually wanted a solid shot at a full time job as an actual lawyer, there about a hundred schools, at least, that I would not go to.

This is a really valid point. If you just want to attend law school because you want to further some educational goal or enhance your opportunity then attending any law school that will accept you for the absolute lowest amount of debt possible is the best idea.

To OP:
Would you be happy graduating from your law school making 25% less than what you make now? It's quite possible that after going to law school the only legal job you'll qualify for will start off at $45k. Would you be okay with that? Most of the schools that admit students with LSATs below 160 and/or GPA below ~3.3 are going to be ultra competitive, in markets that have a small legal market, and typically have tuition and COL that rival those schools in the top 10.

If you want to practice law you really need to consider your realistic opportunities coming out of law school. As you stated you can always start your own practice (and as someone stated after that, you are going to find it difficult, but not impossible because of the pure lack of relevant legal skills you lack after graduation).

If you want to do a specific type of legal work after law school you have to give strong consideration to where you attend, your debt coming out, and then weigh the risk/reward.

One additional factor is what you do now. You have roughly 7 years of WE iirc, and if attending law school will further your current career and basically guarantee a pay raise in your current field then attending a local law school with otherwise bleak employment prospects may be worth it. The ROI is going to be different than someone entering the work force for the first time and whose first career is law. But if you plan to completely leave behind your prior career and are depending on law school to be the new career then in addition to all the other factors surrounding attending a specific law school generally, you should absolutely consider whether graduating from your law school of choice will provide you with a better career (and I use better because it's a subjective term) than your current career without law school.

[JDYesPlease]

So then where is the cut-off?

At any point where the debt you must take on to attend the school will likely not justify the outcome. But it's not as simple as just saying everything after X number is shit.

And this is just for risk/reward.

If I actually wanted a solid shot at a full time job as an actual lawyer, there about a hundred schools, at least, that I would not go to.

This is a really valid point. If you just want to attend law school because you want to further some educational goal or enhance your opportunity then attending any law school that will accept you for the absolute lowest amount of debt possible is the best idea.

To OP:
Would you be happy graduating from your law school making 25% less than what you make now? It's quite possible that after going to law school the only legal job you'll qualify for will start off at $45k. Would you be okay with that? Most of the schools that admit students with LSATs below 160 and/or GPA below ~3.3 are going to be ultra competitive, in markets that have a small legal market, and typically have tuition and COL that rival those schools in the top 10.

If you want to practice law you really need to consider your realistic opportunities coming out of law school. As you stated you can always start your own practice (and as someone stated after that, you are going to find it difficult, but not impossible because of the pure lack of relevant legal skills you lack after graduation).

If you want to do a specific type of legal work after law school you have to give strong consideration to where you attend, your debt coming out, and then weigh the risk/reward.

One additional factor is what you do now. You have roughly 7 years of WE iirc, and if attending law school will further your current career and basically guarantee a pay raise in your current field then attending a local law school with otherwise bleak employment prospects may be worth it. The ROI is going to be different than someone entering the work force for the first time and whose first career is law. But if you plan to completely leave behind your prior career and are depending on law school to be the new career then in addition to all the other factors surrounding attending a specific law school generally, you should absolutely consider whether graduating from your law school of choice will provide you with a better career (and I use better because it's a subjective term) than your current career without law school.

2012JayDee - Appreciate the insight and the respectful delivery. I originally posted inquiring about waitlist prospects for scorers at the 25% mark of their target school (think I made the post 5 months ago lol) but for some reason or another the discussion evolved into whether or not TT was a good idea for non-scholarship receivers. Edit all-out assault, and yea I agree to an extent with many if not most of the points made in this thread. I truly hope that some of the posters on this website are paid by a third party though for attempting to dissuade law school applicants from pursuing a legal career because some of the vitriol is downright frightening, and for someone to devote this much of their free time to this type of activity seems abnormal and unhealthy. Sometimes I wonder if one of these posters isn't Nando from Third Tier Reality under the guise of a T14 student or matriculant. But if it really comes from a sincere desire to inform consumers about responsible spending and the risks associated with borrowing then they deserve every ounce of good karma from whatever deity they subscribe to.

But yea I know the ROI will end up to the good for me in the long run and I knew it would even before I applied...not in terms of immediate earnings potential for sure but there are other factors relevant to me that don't necessarily belong in a 'what are my chances' forum and make my decision a no-brainer. Not that it matters, but I have reinstatement eligibility in my current position (which pays well) and my employer has expressed to me that I am welcomed to return at the same rate of pay with the same opportunity for advancement should I decide that law is not for me. I feel incredibly lucky for this, especially considering the dismal state of the global economy but I planned it this way several years ago and am now following through with my decision. Wish I could've pounded out an extra few points on the LSAT but unfortunately I don't think it's possible.

[1776]

I got in to one school at the 25th for both LSAT and GPA, got waitlisted at multiple places where I was below median, and in everywhere I was 2 points below or at/slightly above median with money. I was rejected at every school I was more than 3 points above median. Non URM. I easily outperformed my numbers.

[PolySuyGuy]

Looking to get into a school with 159 as the 25% mark...161 as median. GPA is slightly below 25% mark, but I've expressed a pretty big interest in the school - have spoken w/ deans, profs, admissions reps, and have attended law school functions. I'm several years out of undergrad with solid recommendations and a good personal statement. Anyone in the same boat?

Maryland?

[JDYesPlease]

So then where is the cut-off?

At any point where the debt you must take on to attend the school will likely not justify the outcome. But it's not as simple as just saying everything after X number is shit.

Tfleming, are you and radlulz besties? You two have commented in tandem on several threads.