168 / ~3.94, 4.0 UGPA non-URM (next cycle) Forum

[AreJay711]

As someone who had a 168, I'd say retake and get to 170 if you can.

If you don't re-take or improve, I think you're competitive at all of those schools except Stanford and NYU, although you may have to ED to get into UVA. Duke and Georgetown are also toss-ups. Why no love for Michigan or Penn?

Thanks, romo!

I actually have had Michigan in and out of my list for some time, but I think I would need to ED there to have a chance, and I'm not too keen on the summer start thing. And I know Penn is a great school, but all of the other schools have much stronger environmental offerings. (I know I shouldn't choose a school based solely on curriculum, but I don't see any downside to focusing on the others in the t14 that do have more enviro opportunities.)

I have a 168 / 3.94 and actually got a small scholarship to Michigan so I think it is very possible to get in RD with good essays.

AreJay, that's awesome that you got $ at Michigan--congrats! And, just to clarify, you mean you applied RD and got that, right?

Also, thanks again to everybody who has responded!

No I was ED but I imagine I would have gotten in RD since they gave me a scholly.

[sonervous88]

With good LORs and essay you'll be fine. i would say re-take if you can. i got a 167 the first time, 172 the second and a 3.9 gpa also non-URM and so far i have not been rejected from anywhere (knock on wood). currently being held at harvard but no outright rejections. so retake it if you can but if you are not comfortable with it don't fret. i'm sure a t14 is in your future definitely apply as early as possible no matter what. will give you an edge

[jwrash]

There is no way you're getting into a T13 unless you ED to UVA, dude. If you keep your plan as-is, enjoy G (maybe), UCLA, UT, Vandy, GW, or Emory.

wrong

[Ialdabaoth]

There is no way you're getting into a T13 unless you ED to UVA, dude. If you keep your plan as-is, enjoy G (maybe), UCLA, UT, Vandy, GW, or Emory.

wrong

Bump here from OP (sorry, I'm bored and thinking about law school, haha) Also, one specific question re ED at UVA: I know it's a bit of a running TLS joke, but why do people always say ED UVA rather than other T14s that have ED programs? From looking at LSN, I don't see any clear advantage that ED UVA offers compared to the others.

Thanks again to everybody for their input. It is much appreciated.

[paulinaporizkova]

There is no way you're getting into a T13 unless you ED to UVA, dude. If you keep your plan as-is, enjoy G (maybe), UCLA, UT, Vandy, GW, or Emory.

wrong

Bump here from OP (sorry, I'm bored and thinking about law school, haha) Also, one specific question re ED at UVA: I know it's a bit of a running TLS joke, but why do people always say ED UVA rather than other T14s that have ED programs? From looking at LSN, I don't see any clear advantage that ED UVA offers compared to the others.

Thanks again to everybody for their input. It is much appreciated.

first of all, i (ironically) think that TLS in general has love for UVA. a lot of people on TLS go there (including several mods/admins) and have many good things to say. many would pick UVA over other ED's that would yield similar results like Michigan, Duke, GULC. UVA has very solid job placement stats and is a very good school all around. but more importantly, UVA takes any ED candidate who hits one of their medians and falls between 25-50th percentile for the other number. they have known to be more generous than that if you apply ED very early in the cycle. the trouble is, their medians are very high (170 for LSAT, 3.85 for GPA right now, though form what i've seen on LSN and TLS this cycle, it is very likely that this median is on the rise.) so if you have a 3.94 like you, you are a lock at UVA with a 168 since their 25th is a 165-166 or something. you would not be as much of a lock at any other school, but you would have a really good shot at, say, duke and michigan ED, but there is no guarantee. at UVA it;s more of a guarantee. However, UVA is funny because if you had, say, a 168 and a 3.83 GPA, you wouldn't get in ED.


also (very importantly) their ED deadline is the same as their RD deadline (March 1 i believe) so you can apply ED after the November ED deadlines that most schools have in place. if you take the December or even February LSAT, you can still ED and that's not an option at most other t14 schools (might be possible at GULC, not sure, but UVA is a better school anyway)

[Ialdabaoth]

There is no way you're getting into a T13 unless you ED to UVA, dude. If you keep your plan as-is, enjoy G (maybe), UCLA, UT, Vandy, GW, or Emory.

wrong

Bump here from OP (sorry, I'm bored and thinking about law school, haha) Also, one specific question re ED at UVA: I know it's a bit of a running TLS joke, but why do people always say ED UVA rather than other T14s that have ED programs? From looking at LSN, I don't see any clear advantage that ED UVA offers compared to the others.

Thanks again to everybody for their input. It is much appreciated.

first of all, i (ironically) think that TLS in general has love for UVA. a lot of people on TLS go there (including several mods/admins) and have many good things to say. many would pick UVA over other ED's that would yield similar results like Michigan, Duke, GULC. UVA has very solid job placement stats and is a very good school all around. but more importantly, UVA takes any ED candidate who hits one of their medians and falls between 25-50th percentile for the other number. they have known to be more generous than that if you apply ED very early in the cycle. the trouble is, their medians are very high (170 for LSAT, 3.85 for GPA right now, though form what i've seen on LSN and TLS this cycle, it is very likely that this median is on the rise.) so if you have a 3.94 like you, you are a lock at UVA with a 168 since their 25th is a 165-166 or something. you would not be as much of a lock at any other school, but you would have a really good shot at, say, duke and michigan ED, but there is no guarantee. at UVA it;s more of a guarantee. However, UVA is funny because if you had, say, a 168 and a 3.83 GPA, you wouldn't get in ED.


also (very importantly) their ED deadline is the same as their RD deadline (March 1 i believe) so you can apply ED after the November ED deadlines that most schools have in place. if you take the December or even February LSAT, you can still ED and that's not an option at most other t14 schools (might be possible at GULC, not sure, but UVA is a better school anyway)

Thank you so much for this explanation! That really clarifies things for me but also complicates things even further, haha. I still can't even decide if I want to ED at all since Berk is my number one (semi-realistic) choice. But it looks like 168s have been murdered there so far this cycle, so who knows. Thanks again though!

[paulinaporizkova]

Thank you so much for this explanation! That really clarifies things for me but also complicates things even further, haha. I still can't even decide if I want to ED at all since Berk is my number one (semi-realistic) choice. But it looks like 168s have been murdered there so far this cycle, so who knows. Thanks again though!

you're welcome. i can feel you on this tough decision. if it helps, i think many people think they have a better shot at berk than they actually do when they are starting out in the app process. the vast majority of people get rejected with numbers around ours (i have 4.0/167) and the ones that do get in have exceptional softs or something else that makes their app really stand out. not saying anything about you specifically, because of course you might get in, but it helps to be URM, very poor/disadvantaged growing up, a first gen college student, etc. with berkeley. of course, the drawback with shooting for berkeley would mean that you probably won't get the chance to ED anywhere. i dunno, it depends on you and your individual risk aversion.

like r6 said before, if you put a spin on your app (read: environmental or IP) and really put together an impressive app, i could see it happening

[Ialdabaoth]

you're welcome. i can feel you on this tough decision. if it helps, i think many people think they have a better shot at berk than they actually do when they are starting out in the app process. the vast majority of people get rejected with numbers around ours (i have 4.0/167) and the ones that do get in have exceptional softs or something else that makes their app really stand out. not saying anything about you specifically, because of course you might get in, but it helps to be URM, very poor/disadvantaged growing up, a first gen college student, etc. with berkeley. of course, the drawback with shooting for berkeley would mean that you probably won't get the chance to ED anywhere. i dunno, it depends on you and your individual risk aversion.

like r6 said before, if you put a spin on your app (read: environmental or IP) and really put together an impressive app, i could see it happening

Yeah, I agree with you on people overestimating their chances. I was doing that myself until I really looked closely at the LSN data. I think a lot of people just see the lower LSAT median and automatically think they'll have a better shot. Thanks for the realistic encouragement though. I do think my app will at least be thoroughly and authentically Boalt- and environmental-centric, so hopefully that will help.

Best of luck to you! Are you applying this cycle?

[paulinaporizkova]

you're welcome. i can feel you on this tough decision. if it helps, i think many people think they have a better shot at berk than they actually do when they are starting out in the app process. the vast majority of people get rejected with numbers around ours (i have 4.0/167) and the ones that do get in have exceptional softs or something else that makes their app really stand out. not saying anything about you specifically, because of course you might get in, but it helps to be URM, very poor/disadvantaged growing up, a first gen college student, etc. with berkeley. of course, the drawback with shooting for berkeley would mean that you probably won't get the chance to ED anywhere. i dunno, it depends on you and your individual risk aversion.

like r6 said before, if you put a spin on your app (read: environmental or IP) and really put together an impressive app, i could see it happening

Yeah, I agree with you on people overestimating their chances. I was doing that myself until I really looked closely at the LSN data. I think a lot of people just see the lower LSAT median and automatically think they'll have a better shot. Thanks for the realistic encouragement though. I do think my app will at least be thoroughly and authentically Boalt- and environmental-centric, so hopefully that will help.

Best of luck to you! Are you applying this cycle?

yep! so far in at Cornell, Georgetown, UVA, and in with a full scholly at UMN. WL/rejects at some other places (in my profile.) I have a lot of thinking to do, but I will probably go to UVA due to their great placement into NYC and DC. so i am another UVA-phile. i really want to move to the east coast, or else i'd take the schol at Minnesota.


best of luck to you as well!

[Cubyfan21]

I got a 168/160 and 4.0-in at UVA and small scholly at U of M. No worries, you will be fine, but I did get rejected at NYU, waitlist at Duke, U of Chicago and penn, but I applied in November and December.

[Ialdabaoth]

you're welcome. i can feel you on this tough decision. if it helps, i think many people think they have a better shot at berk than they actually do when they are starting out in the app process. the vast majority of people get rejected with numbers around ours (i have 4.0/167) and the ones that do get in have exceptional softs or something else that makes their app really stand out. not saying anything about you specifically, because of course you might get in, but it helps to be URM, very poor/disadvantaged growing up, a first gen college student, etc. with berkeley. of course, the drawback with shooting for berkeley would mean that you probably won't get the chance to ED anywhere. i dunno, it depends on you and your individual risk aversion.

like r6 said before, if you put a spin on your app (read: environmental or IP) and really put together an impressive app, i could see it happening

Yeah, I agree with you on people overestimating their chances. I was doing that myself until I really looked closely at the LSN data. I think a lot of people just see the lower LSAT median and automatically think they'll have a better shot. Thanks for the realistic encouragement though. I do think my app will at least be thoroughly and authentically Boalt- and environmental-centric, so hopefully that will help.

Best of luck to you! Are you applying this cycle?

yep! so far in at Cornell, Georgetown, UVA, and in with a full scholly at UMN. WL/rejects at some other places (in my profile.) I have a lot of thinking to do, but I will probably go to UVA due to their great placement into NYC and DC. so i am another UVA-phile. i really want to move to the east coast, or else i'd take the schol at Minnesota.


best of luck to you as well!

Nice. Congrats on all your acceptances! UVA seems amazing, and I would love to be in your position next year!

[Ialdabaoth]

I got a 168/160 and 4.0-in at UVA and small scholly at U of M. No worries, you will be fine, but I did get rejected at NYU, waitlist at Duke, U of Chicago and penn, but I applied in November and December.

Congrats! And thanks for the encouragement! So you got into UVA RD or ED?

[neonx]

With a 168/3.94+, you should have a significant shot at all of the T14's minus Harvard and Yale (and even then, it's possible!)

Please go for it. PM for me more details.

[paulinaporizkova]

With a 168/3.94+, you should have a significant shot at all of the T14's minus Harvard and Yale (and even then, it's possible!)

Please go for it. PM for me more details.

no, do not PM. i would like to hear more about this ITT because i do not believe it.

[lawyerwannabe]

If I remember correctly, neonx had his own thread and he has greatly out-performed his numbers due to softs?

Either way, I think neonx's advice is poor because one extraordinary case does not justify someone not taking the best course of action for him/herself.

If you are all about rankings, you could take a shot at CLS, UChi (I EDed with a 168, 3.91 and was outright rejected), or NYU ED. Even so, you're chances are poor.

If you ED UPenn and down, you are most likely in (someone even said that UM will sometimes offer money for your numbers).

However, if you decide not to ED, HYS = rejection, CCN = WL/rejection, M = In (I think), VPD = WL, CG = In.

I did not comment on N because I do not know about your work experience. I did not comment on B because they are the weirdest school to predict in the T-14. Also, if you have great softs, your chances could go up. But, as someone with your #s, I would ED and be happy. 168 puts you in a precarious situation even with the fantastic GPA.

Best of luck.

[neonx]

If I remember correctly, neonx had his own thread and he has greatly out-performed his numbers due to softs?

Either way, I think neonx's advice is poor because one extraordinary case does not justify someone not taking the best course of action for him/herself.

If you are all about rankings, you could take a shot at CLS, UChi (I EDed with a 168, 3.91 and was outright rejected), or NYU ED. Even so, you're chances are poor.

If you ED UPenn and down, you are most likely in (someone even said that UM will sometimes offer money for your numbers).

However, if you decide not to ED, HYS = rejection, CCN = WL/rejection, M = In (I think), VPD = WL, CG = In.

I did not comment on N because I do not know about your work experience. I did not comment on B because they are the weirdest school to predict in the T-14. Also, if you have great softs, your chances could go up. But, as someone with your #s, I would ED and be happy. 168 puts you in a precarious situation even with the fantastic GPA.

Best of luck.

Maybe it's just me, but I'd be very cautious about EDing to any school unless it's absolutely your top choice, and you'd willing to pay sticker.

[AreJay711]

If I remember correctly, neonx had his own thread and he has greatly out-performed his numbers due to softs?

Either way, I think neonx's advice is poor because one extraordinary case does not justify someone not taking the best course of action for him/herself.

If you are all about rankings, you could take a shot at CLS, UChi (I EDed with a 168, 3.91 and was outright rejected), or NYU ED. Even so, you're chances are poor.

If you ED UPenn and down, you are most likely in (someone even said that UM will sometimes offer money for your numbers).

However, if you decide not to ED, HYS = rejection, CCN = WL/rejection, M = In (I think), VPD = WL, CG = In.

I did not comment on N because I do not know about your work experience. I did not comment on B because they are the weirdest school to predict in the T-14. Also, if you have great softs, your chances could go up. But, as someone with your #s, I would ED and be happy. 168 puts you in a precarious situation even with the fantastic GPA.

Best of luck.

Idk, that isn't what LSP would predict.

[paulinaporizkova]

If I remember correctly, neonx had his own thread and he has greatly out-performed his numbers due to softs?

Either way, I think neonx's advice is poor because one extraordinary case does not justify someone not taking the best course of action for him/herself.

If you are all about rankings, you could take a shot at CLS, UChi (I EDed with a 168, 3.91 and was outright rejected), or NYU ED. Even so, you're chances are poor.

If you ED UPenn and down, you are most likely in (someone even said that UM will sometimes offer money for your numbers).

However, if you decide not to ED, HYS = rejection, CCN = WL/rejection, M = In (I think), VPD = WL, CG = In.

I did not comment on N because I do not know about your work experience. I did not comment on B because they are the weirdest school to predict in the T-14. Also, if you have great softs, your chances could go up. But, as someone with your #s, I would ED and be happy. 168 puts you in a precarious situation even with the fantastic GPA.

Best of luck.

Idk, that isn't what LSP would predict.

i'm also going to disagree slightly. Michigan is not a lock, but you have a good chance. Penn ED is also NOT not a "most likely in" situation. in fact, i'd guess that you get held/waitlisted initially and then possibly let in (or not) much later. but that is the course of events i would predict.

[lawyerwannabe]

LSP isn't very good. LSN is much better. It pretty much proves that OP is in WL territory with CCN, D.

Either way, UM as a lock may be optimistic. I was going based on what AreJay was saying. LSN shows him having a pretty good chance still. I would also like to say that my prediction for G might be optimistic.

Moving on, most anecdotal evidence from this cycle would suggest that OP would get into UPenn ED (but yes, not a lock).

Also, though not very representative, if you look at ED applicants at UPenn the last two years, you would very much be leaning towards OP getting in if he/she chose to ED there.

While what I said may not prove true for every applicant with OP's numbers, I believe my predictions are pretty close to what would happen in a typical cycle.

[paulinaporizkova]

G is a lock for sure. If it helps, I applied to Michigan RD with a 167/3.95 (average softs, I currently have an AmeriCorps job and wrote a diversity statement on being a homo) in September and I got rejected the first day rejections came out.

[Ialdabaoth]

If I remember correctly, neonx had his own thread and he has greatly out-performed his numbers due to softs?

Either way, I think neonx's advice is poor because one extraordinary case does not justify someone not taking the best course of action for him/herself.

If you are all about rankings, you could take a shot at CLS, UChi (I EDed with a 168, 3.91 and was outright rejected), or NYU ED. Even so, you're chances are poor.

If you ED UPenn and down, you are most likely in (someone even said that UM will sometimes offer money for your numbers).

However, if you decide not to ED, HYS = rejection, CCN = WL/rejection, M = In (I think), VPD = WL, CG = In.

I did not comment on N because I do not know about your work experience. I did not comment on B because they are the weirdest school to predict in the T-14. Also, if you have great softs, your chances could go up. But, as someone with your #s, I would ED and be happy. 168 puts you in a precarious situation even with the fantastic GPA.

Best of luck.

Thanks for your thoughts!

I'm not all about numbers, especially not minute differences within the T14. That said, my two top choices are probably Boalt and NYU (PI environmental and Stanford probably not realistic for me). I've asked this before, and I think it got passed up, but how could a NYU ED affect my cycle? For instance, if I get WL at NYU, am I stuck with it, or can you get out of the ED contract at that point? Sorry if this has been covered elsewhere. I haven't been able to find a clear answer.

Also, do you disagree with the common logic of UVA ED (such as paulinaporizkova's explanation above)?

Thanks again to everybody!

[SupraVln180]

OP will get $$$ at a lower T14 (Cornell/ Mich/ GULC/ NU) and should probably take that. A retake and 170+ would be ideal, but if that is OP's max (and it is a great score) then he should take cash at the lower T14.

[paulinaporizkova]

OP will get $$$ at a lower T14 (Cornell/ Mich/ GULC/ NU) and should probably take that. A retake and 170+ would be ideal, but if that is OP's max (and it is a great score) then he should take cash at the lower T14.

god dammit. does one LSAT point really preclude money at lower t14s? (as it would with a 167, my score?) i hate the LSAT.

ETA: i know the answer to this is "yes" so don't write back unless you want to laugh at my expense ITT

[ATR]

G is a lock for sure. If it helps, I applied to Michigan RD with a 167/3.95 (average softs, I currently have an AmeriCorps job and wrote a diversity statement on being a homo) in September and I got rejected the first day rejections came out.

G may be a lock if OP applies early. However, I (and others with better numbers than me) were WL'd after waiting to apply following our December LSATs (see my profile for my LSN).

[paulinaporizkova]

G is a lock for sure. If it helps, I applied to Michigan RD with a 167/3.95 (average softs, I currently have an AmeriCorps job and wrote a diversity statement on being a homo) in September and I got rejected the first day rejections came out.

G may be a lock if OP applies early. However, I (and others with better numbers than me) were WL'd after waiting to apply following our December LSATs (see my profile for my LSN).

you are correct, i was going to add this in earlier but i forgot.