haven't taken the official LSATs yet, since i have been trying to avoid the inevitable for as long as possible. I took a practice LSAT because I am a fulltime tutor now and could make a hell of a lot more tutoring the LSATs. Scored a 168 (I was a little over on the games, my analytical skills were a little rusty). So, for perhaps the first time in my life I am going to apply myself and therefore expect solid results.
LSAT (estimated)-175-180
G.P.A. (real)- 3.1 (attending class was never my strong point)
Extras- tutor, volunteer at multiple hospitals, I've run my own business, philosophy major, Asian-American (are asians underrepresented).
What level lawschools should I look at?
Thanks for the help
What are my odds? Forum
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declsat24
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2006 3:34 pm
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Mark71121
- Posts: 132
- Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2007 3:39 pm
175-180 isn't a bad estimate, especially someone who is starting at 168.
lawschool?- Looks like you'll have a decent shot at landing an acceptance to a T14 school. As long as you're >170, someone will likely bite.
I'm a 2.9, 174 splitter. There's plenty of "splitters" that frequent these forums, so you'll likely get a good feel for where you stand in the coming months.
Generally speaking, many splitters' low GPAs are products of hard, science based majors or extenuating personal circumstances. While neither completely offset the low GPA, many top schools seems to be willing to offer a degree of leniency when considering your application. That said, your philosophy major and seemingly apathetic attitude toward school won't help you much, but likely won't disqualify you from anywhere. I'm not a URM expert, but I don't think Asians are given URM status.
Anyway, I'd take a look at all the top schools minus HYSB. Good luck.
lawschool?- Looks like you'll have a decent shot at landing an acceptance to a T14 school. As long as you're >170, someone will likely bite.
I'm a 2.9, 174 splitter. There's plenty of "splitters" that frequent these forums, so you'll likely get a good feel for where you stand in the coming months.
Generally speaking, many splitters' low GPAs are products of hard, science based majors or extenuating personal circumstances. While neither completely offset the low GPA, many top schools seems to be willing to offer a degree of leniency when considering your application. That said, your philosophy major and seemingly apathetic attitude toward school won't help you much, but likely won't disqualify you from anywhere. I'm not a URM expert, but I don't think Asians are given URM status.
Anyway, I'd take a look at all the top schools minus HYSB. Good luck.
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lawschool?
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:50 pm
I'm new to applying to law school so you're gonna have to bear with me here.
T14 is what? Top 14?
HYSB is Harvard, Yale, Stanford, ?
And will being a legacy at both Harvard and Yale count (though not the law school). Though I know my pops doesn't donate enough to make even a blip on their radar.
Finally- the apathethetic attitude towards school is a former apathetic attitude towards school. Plus I can bs my way through anything, I'll figure out a good reason why my GPA is so low.
T14 is what? Top 14?
HYSB is Harvard, Yale, Stanford, ?
And will being a legacy at both Harvard and Yale count (though not the law school). Though I know my pops doesn't donate enough to make even a blip on their radar.
Finally- the apathethetic attitude towards school is a former apathetic attitude towards school. Plus I can bs my way through anything, I'll figure out a good reason why my GPA is so low.
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themillsman22
- Posts: 135
- Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:37 pm
Holy goodness there's a lot of people, so here we go.
JPG - I'd say what you described is correct. Schools in the 15-30 range would be considered targets (with likelihood of admission obviously increasing or decreasing with the rank). I'd apply to the bottom half of the T14 like you suggested. While the LSAT is on the lower side of those schools, maybe one of them is interested and that's all it takes.
amIready- You have similar numbers to above, with a better GPA, so all of those schools are in play. As a URM, I am not sure Columbia, NYU, and GTown are as big of a reach as you might think. I might even consider applying to some other top ranked schools. A lot definitely depends on what your actual LSAT score is, too. Still, based on your schools list, you seem like you want to stay in NY, so I'd say I'd feel pretty good about my chances. If you don't need to stay in NY, consider sending out a few more apps to higher ranked schools, as you should be close to a lock from Fordham on down.
Mark71- Obviously you're a classic splitter so it's very hard to know for sure, and you're best bet is to apply to as many schools as possible. You're probably out at the schools that love GPA (like T3 and Boalt), but it's not out of the question that one or many of the other schools in the T14 likes your application and LSAT, and thus I'd apply to a lot. I'd also apply to a couple schools in the 15-25 range, just to be safe.
J-Rod- Your LSAT is a little on the lower side of the schools you mention, but you do have a strong GPA. Thus, I would say that the schools you mention are targets. I wouldn't expect to get into all of them, but I certainly think you're more than competitive at them, and would expect at least one (probably more) would admit you. Northwestern is certainly a reach, and they like people with work experience, so probably not the best chance. UVA, again, a reach, but you have fee waivers so I would absolutely apply and cross my fingers. Who knows what might happen? Given that you are on the border for some of the places you mention, make sure to have a strong PS capable of swayin someone on the fence.
kitkat- I do think Columbia could be a reach, because they have a higher LSAT range. Still, your stats are good enough that it's not a foolish reach where you have no chance. Hopefully your PS is awesome and can help you out. As for Berkeley, your strong GPA might help, since they do tend to like GPA. I'd classify that as a target more than a reach, because your numbers are both close to the 75th percentile. All said, make sure you apply to more than these schools, as you're a competitive candidate at many places in the T14.
Tmo - I don't know a lot about the Univ of Wash, but your numbers certainly don't keep you out. You're around the median for both schools. I don't know how hung up you should get about the lack of residency. If you have a strong application, it's at the very least worth applying. I certainly wouldn't classify it as a "waste of money." The 7 years of work experience isn't a bad thing to have in your favor either, even if it is a "soft factor." Apply! If it's where you want to go, isn't $70-80 for an application well within reason? Try applyin to other schools in the middle of Tier 1 as well.
Wannabe- A lot depends where you want to go. At some places, if you have the numbers, you're in and an average PS or LOR aren't going to kill you. At other places, I don't know. If people really review your application package, it could rub someone the wrong way that they think you're "coasting" on your numbers. Even if you're not, it almost comes off that way. If you're applying, it makes sense to put your best foot forward. Don't slack on anything and you won't have to worry about those problems. That said, if you're just not a good writer or don't have great LOR, don't obsess about it. Have others read over your PS, and provide some guidance for recommenders. These deficiencies can be overcome, but I don't think you should send an average PS and LOR because you're lazy (and that's not directed at you personally, just a general comment).
Efine - I like your LSAT score for the schools you mention, but being a splitter certainly doesn't help. I am not sure how much retaking will help unless you know for a fact you will improve substantially. At this point, your LSAT is already above the 75th at most or all of those places. I think your best strategy is to apply to all of those schools (and more similar ranked schools - middle Tier 1). I don't know how Texas treats GPA, but the residency does tend to help students from there. I'll speculate that the Americorps program would give you the edge over an applicant with similar #s, but probably would not help you beat out an applicant with better #s.
lawschool?- Boy, 175-180 is a big, big goal. It's certainly within reach and I don't doubt that you can do it, but it's still a big goal. You'll definitely need it to have a solid shot at schools because your GPA definitely is on the lower end. A lot depends on your actual LSAT, but if you score as you suggest you will, T14 is in play. I would apply to a lot of them as a splitter. I also don't believe Asian American is URM. Also, I am pretty sure adcoms are rather adept at detecting BS, so I'd be careful. T14 is the top 14 schools. Tier 1 is top 50, Tier 2 51-100, Tier 3, 101-150, Tier 4 150+. Obviously the line is grey on the border of the tiers. HYS = Harvard Yale Stanford. Check the rankings on the TLS homepage.
declsat- Congrats on your 180, that's absolutely fantastic. Your GPA is great too. Yale is a bit of a mystery. People with great numbers get denied there, and lower accepted. Hard to speak accurately on your chances, but if I had your numbers, I would deifnitely be applying. I'd speculate you're pretty much in everywhere else you mention. You might want to apply to one or two other schools just in case, but that's just me being paranoid. With those numbers, you have to like your chances.
JPG - I'd say what you described is correct. Schools in the 15-30 range would be considered targets (with likelihood of admission obviously increasing or decreasing with the rank). I'd apply to the bottom half of the T14 like you suggested. While the LSAT is on the lower side of those schools, maybe one of them is interested and that's all it takes.
amIready- You have similar numbers to above, with a better GPA, so all of those schools are in play. As a URM, I am not sure Columbia, NYU, and GTown are as big of a reach as you might think. I might even consider applying to some other top ranked schools. A lot definitely depends on what your actual LSAT score is, too. Still, based on your schools list, you seem like you want to stay in NY, so I'd say I'd feel pretty good about my chances. If you don't need to stay in NY, consider sending out a few more apps to higher ranked schools, as you should be close to a lock from Fordham on down.
Mark71- Obviously you're a classic splitter so it's very hard to know for sure, and you're best bet is to apply to as many schools as possible. You're probably out at the schools that love GPA (like T3 and Boalt), but it's not out of the question that one or many of the other schools in the T14 likes your application and LSAT, and thus I'd apply to a lot. I'd also apply to a couple schools in the 15-25 range, just to be safe.
J-Rod- Your LSAT is a little on the lower side of the schools you mention, but you do have a strong GPA. Thus, I would say that the schools you mention are targets. I wouldn't expect to get into all of them, but I certainly think you're more than competitive at them, and would expect at least one (probably more) would admit you. Northwestern is certainly a reach, and they like people with work experience, so probably not the best chance. UVA, again, a reach, but you have fee waivers so I would absolutely apply and cross my fingers. Who knows what might happen? Given that you are on the border for some of the places you mention, make sure to have a strong PS capable of swayin someone on the fence.
kitkat- I do think Columbia could be a reach, because they have a higher LSAT range. Still, your stats are good enough that it's not a foolish reach where you have no chance. Hopefully your PS is awesome and can help you out. As for Berkeley, your strong GPA might help, since they do tend to like GPA. I'd classify that as a target more than a reach, because your numbers are both close to the 75th percentile. All said, make sure you apply to more than these schools, as you're a competitive candidate at many places in the T14.
Tmo - I don't know a lot about the Univ of Wash, but your numbers certainly don't keep you out. You're around the median for both schools. I don't know how hung up you should get about the lack of residency. If you have a strong application, it's at the very least worth applying. I certainly wouldn't classify it as a "waste of money." The 7 years of work experience isn't a bad thing to have in your favor either, even if it is a "soft factor." Apply! If it's where you want to go, isn't $70-80 for an application well within reason? Try applyin to other schools in the middle of Tier 1 as well.
Wannabe- A lot depends where you want to go. At some places, if you have the numbers, you're in and an average PS or LOR aren't going to kill you. At other places, I don't know. If people really review your application package, it could rub someone the wrong way that they think you're "coasting" on your numbers. Even if you're not, it almost comes off that way. If you're applying, it makes sense to put your best foot forward. Don't slack on anything and you won't have to worry about those problems. That said, if you're just not a good writer or don't have great LOR, don't obsess about it. Have others read over your PS, and provide some guidance for recommenders. These deficiencies can be overcome, but I don't think you should send an average PS and LOR because you're lazy (and that's not directed at you personally, just a general comment).
Efine - I like your LSAT score for the schools you mention, but being a splitter certainly doesn't help. I am not sure how much retaking will help unless you know for a fact you will improve substantially. At this point, your LSAT is already above the 75th at most or all of those places. I think your best strategy is to apply to all of those schools (and more similar ranked schools - middle Tier 1). I don't know how Texas treats GPA, but the residency does tend to help students from there. I'll speculate that the Americorps program would give you the edge over an applicant with similar #s, but probably would not help you beat out an applicant with better #s.
lawschool?- Boy, 175-180 is a big, big goal. It's certainly within reach and I don't doubt that you can do it, but it's still a big goal. You'll definitely need it to have a solid shot at schools because your GPA definitely is on the lower end. A lot depends on your actual LSAT, but if you score as you suggest you will, T14 is in play. I would apply to a lot of them as a splitter. I also don't believe Asian American is URM. Also, I am pretty sure adcoms are rather adept at detecting BS, so I'd be careful. T14 is the top 14 schools. Tier 1 is top 50, Tier 2 51-100, Tier 3, 101-150, Tier 4 150+. Obviously the line is grey on the border of the tiers. HYS = Harvard Yale Stanford. Check the rankings on the TLS homepage.
declsat- Congrats on your 180, that's absolutely fantastic. Your GPA is great too. Yale is a bit of a mystery. People with great numbers get denied there, and lower accepted. Hard to speak accurately on your chances, but if I had your numbers, I would deifnitely be applying. I'd speculate you're pretty much in everywhere else you mention. You might want to apply to one or two other schools just in case, but that's just me being paranoid. With those numbers, you have to like your chances.
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LawSchoolWannaBe
- Posts: 212
- Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 12:57 am
Thanks millsman.
Yeah, my writing skills are definitely where I fear my PS will be lacking. I've had it edited by friends and professors over a dozen times, I just obsess over what might be wrong in the end.
I don't want to come off as feeling like I think I am coasting into schools, but I do feel like the application should be about me moreso than the school I am applying to. It should be obvious to schools that I want to attend their school as soon as I spend the money and submit my application. I guess if places don't accept me, it probably wasn't meant to be...
Yeah, my writing skills are definitely where I fear my PS will be lacking. I've had it edited by friends and professors over a dozen times, I just obsess over what might be wrong in the end.
I don't want to come off as feeling like I think I am coasting into schools, but I do feel like the application should be about me moreso than the school I am applying to. It should be obvious to schools that I want to attend their school as soon as I spend the money and submit my application. I guess if places don't accept me, it probably wasn't meant to be...
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themillsman22
- Posts: 135
- Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:37 pm
As long as you're putting in the effort, then I wouldn't worry about it, especially if your numbers are strong. It's not like you wrote it, didn't proofread or edit it, and simply filled the requirement and moved on. This absolutely will NOT be what makes or breaks your admission at a school where you are already at the 75th and 75th. Relax, you'll do fine.
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LawSchoolWannaBe
- Posts: 212
- Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 12:57 am
The LORs is where I'm really stuck. Some want 2 academic ones. I do really well in a lot of my classes, well nearly all. I know most of my professors extremely well, and generally am able to talk to them whenever I need help. I still don't feel as though many would make good LOR candidates though.
I got one from one professor who really does know me, and can express it in a very appealing way. I just don't think there is a second that could do as well, or even as well as my other LOR. This other one is from a boss I've had for 2 summers at an internship, and he is very passionate about my work ethic and skills, and I think his letter would be numerous times more effective than those I could get from other academic sources.
I sent one specific school an email, and hopefully they will allow the second, but how should this LOR affect my chances at schools?
I got one from one professor who really does know me, and can express it in a very appealing way. I just don't think there is a second that could do as well, or even as well as my other LOR. This other one is from a boss I've had for 2 summers at an internship, and he is very passionate about my work ethic and skills, and I think his letter would be numerous times more effective than those I could get from other academic sources.
I sent one specific school an email, and hopefully they will allow the second, but how should this LOR affect my chances at schools?
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themillsman22
- Posts: 135
- Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:37 pm
Based on Montauk's How To Get Into Top Law Schools book, I would say not too much. Consider applicants who have been out of school 5 years, 10 years, or even more. It's unlikely some of these candidates can even get academic LOR. LOR are not going to differentiate you very much from other candidates. Every LOR the person in theory should say nice things about you. Some will be better than others, but I don't think this is what will keep you out of school. Thus, if you can get a professor, who doesn't even know you that well (it sucks I know), they just need to say " I know candidate A, he's smart, intelligent. he's mature. he has good critical thinking skills. he excelled in my class, helped others. etc" As long as you have the 2 other LOR, I wouldn't worry about one less strong one. If you can't get the one, and the schools allow it, I think the employer is OK. Better to have a great employer LOR than none or a subpar academic LOR? Probably.
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hopie
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:47 am
Does anyone know any "easy" (I know NO school is easy to get into but comparatively...) law schools to get into in NYC? I have a gpa of 3.65 from nyu with major and double minor, and I have worked for a well-established congressman, but my lsat is incredibly low (149) and I don't have time to take it again before applications are due...I figure I can go somewhere for one year and then hopefully transfer to nyu or columbia law... any ideas? Thanks guys!
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cej13
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 8:06 pm
hopie u should really reconsider retaking. Lets say you enroll at NYLS believing you will pull high enough grades to transfer to Columbia or NYU but can't. What would you do then? I think you will be much better off retaking and applying with a higher score than taking your chances on the transfer. Besides, those schools will ask for your LSAT score anyway, and with a 149 I think even with a 4.0 in law school it would hard to transfer into those schools. Just my opinion. Good luck.
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NeedAllTheHelpICanGet
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mrbuckfutter
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125/4.3 GPA from Arctic Polytechnic
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joyce615
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i think you are throwing away your money by applying to so many people. i don't want to burst your bubble but your friend had higher numbers so your chances look much slimmer. i think you should be whittling down that number to around 15 by assessing where your most realistic prospects are. but if you truly want to carpet bomb the top 30 schools, then that's your choice and i wish you the best of luck.
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