University of San Francisco Forum

[Great Satchmo]

I'll write up a quick report of my tour and the class I sat in on, since there doesn't seem to be much about USF on here.

While sitting in on the class, I noticed there were no laptops in the room. I talked to the tour guide later (I sat in last week, went on the tour this week) and I guess a number of professors are pushing for 1L classes to be laptop-less. The classrooms were pretty nice, as were all of the facilities.

Going through the tour, the building seems very "cozy" in it's set-up. There is a circular area that you enter into that has all of the main classrooms/lecture halls attached. Everything is bright and clean, and really nice place. We saw some of the break areas and conference rooms, and it seems that a good portion have gorgeous views of the city.

The library was really nice (much nicer than SCU's - which has a beautiful undergrad campus, but slightly outdated law buildings) and there seemed to be a lot of places to study comfortably. Apparently the library is only open until 11pm, and then midnight during exams. However, the undergrad library across the street is open 24 hours around finals time.

I went on a tour of 2 people, with one tour guide. The tour guide was a 3L and she seemed to have really enjoyed being a student there. She has a solid job lined up and seems to be doing really well, so I didn't get any negative sentiments. She feels that USF and Hastings compete pretty well against on another in the city. I'm reticent to believe it, but she seemed pretty sure that you won't get tossed out over a Hastings student simply due to where you go (which can't be said for Boalt/SLS).

Overall the undergrad campus, which I didn't tour, is absolutely gorgeous. The law buildings are right across the street from the UG and they are pretty new and very clean and modern.

The surrounding area is pretty nice (inner richmond/panhandle). It's more residential, but there are a number of stores/restaurants walking distance from campus, not to mention haight a few blocks away. If you are willing to share a place, the inner richmond can be affordable (people spending $1k+ on rent is a bit much for my tastes).

Overall, the school seemed to have a very close-knit feel and there seems to be a lot of student involvement and community. After the tour, I ended up talking to the tour guide and her friends about the school and they were very open and friendly.

[tadams86]

I went on the same tour, sounds like the same girl. I was impressed with the school, brand new library was pretty awesome. As you mentioned though, it is the fourth or fifth best school in the area (assuming you bring SCU into the picture). That being said, doesnt seem like a bad place to be for three years!

[Great Satchmo]

And that was a concern I brought up: how does USF do while Stanford, Boalt, Hastings, and GGU in the city as well as SCU, Davis, and McGeorge in the surrounding areas? Her impression is that Hastings/Davis don't necessarily trump USF insofar as your app gets tossed out. USF seems to have a decent reputation with firms and judges in the city.

The sentiment, and I've gotten this from students at other schools including SCU and others, is that the schools of T1/T2 aren't all that different. They acknowledge the differences in rank, but I think their focus while a student turns to what THEY can do for their circumstances. It's no longer about "what can the school get me" as much as "what can I get for myself through this school". So they acknowledge the rankings, seem happy with their choice with the sole exception of possibly having gone somewhere a bit lower-ranked with scholarship money.

One of the girls I talked to (non-tour guide) had been accepted at Davis and Hastings, but went to USF for the scholarship (likely a substantial one, but she said she had just broken the $100k debt mark for 3L). Her feeling was that the reduction in debt, as well as location, was worth it.

Anyhow, that goes somewhat beyond the visit.

I don't think you can really ask for a nicer campus in a better location (if only light rail, like the N/J/L/etc, had a line running to the Richmond).

[tadams86]

The school is in a great location, better than Hastings from what I have heard. Definitely a better hood than where McGeorge is. Personally I loved the school, have absolutely nothing to complain about, maybe besides the weird locker room thing in the basement. I really enjoyed the random TV room in the library. I still think personally I would choose McGeorge over USF only because of the connections I have in Sacramento, or as my uncle calls it Sac-a-tomatoes haha. Although im still complete at USF....so I might not even have that choice lol.

[drdolittle]

USF is certainly in a much better area than Hastings, unless you value being near city hall and downtown (and a relatively unsafe inner city type of neighborhood), which I would not in a city as small as SF. The best thing about Hastings' location though is that it's so close to the most effective public transit in the city, i.e. BART & underground MUNI.

[Great Satchmo]

USF is certainly in a much better area than Hastings, unless you value being near city hall and downtown (and a relatively unsafe inner city type of neighborhood), which I would not in a city as small as SF. The best thing about Hastings' location though is that it's so close to the most effective public transit in the city, i.e. BART & underground MUNI.

Absolutely Hastings has the best location for public transit: buses, underground/light rail, and Bart.

I get the proximity value for courthouses, but I don't think a 10-15 minute difference (via public transit, maybe 5 minutes in a car) to courthouses from USF vs. Hastings is much of a difference in practice.

As far as nice neighborhoods, I love being downtown...but the inner richmond is much nicer for livability. Also, it has beautiful facilities, and from what I took the LSAT at Hastings, it seemed like the inside of their buildings are "meh".

Although, the aesthetic concerns are only a small part of the decision...

[star10]

I visited a few weeks ago and everything mentioned is dead on...

I really loved USF and am bummed they didn't give me a scholarship...whereas McGeorge gave me 25K/yr with no GPA stipulation.

Still (not to knock anyone going to McGeorge) I absolutely did not like McGeorge and couldn't see myself going there.

Everyone (in real life and TLS) tells me I'd be crazy to turn down that scholarship since USF is so similar. I've really gone back and forth about at what point does happiness and having a good law school experience outtrump debt....

For some I guess it would be a no brainer but I'm really conflicted...

[Great Satchmo]

I visited a few weeks ago and everything mentioned is dead on...

I really loved USF and am bummed they didn't give me a scholarship...whereas McGeorge gave me 25K/yr with no GPA stipulation.

Still (not to knock anyone going to McGeorge) I absolutely did not like McGeorge and couldn't see myself going there.

Everyone (in real life and TLS) tells me I'd be crazy to turn down that scholarship since USF is so similar. I've really gone back and forth about at what point does happiness and having a good law school experience outtrump debt....

For some I guess it would be a no brainer but I'm really conflicted...

Others' advice can only go so far. My advice is to go with McGeorge b/c $25k/year with no GPA stipulations has to reduce some stress, plus Sacramento has jobs for McGeorge graduates.

I'm always confused by scholarship awards, USF offered me some money, while McGeorge offered me less than you and with stipulations. I was going to pursue negotiating, which they seemed open to, but I just don't want the incentive to go to Sacramento (I live in San Francisco no, and would love to stay).

[Norwood]

Hey, has anyone participated in USF's New Student Visitor Program?
(Great Satchmo - is this what you took part in?)

I'm fairly confident that I will be placing my deposit with USF since I doubt I'll be receiving any significant acceptances within the next 10 days that'll sway me away USF completely. I'm just wondering, is it worth it to commit a half day for the Visitor Program when the ASD is only a few weeks away? I would have to take time off of work to attend otherwise I would absolutely take advantage of the one-on-one time the Visitor Program offers.

thanks

[Great Satchmo]

Hey, has anyone participated in USF's New Student Visitor Program?
(Great Satchmo - is this what you took part in?)

I'm fairly confident that I will be placing my deposit with USF since I doubt I'll be receiving any significant acceptances within the next 10 days that'll sway me away USF completely. I'm just wondering, is it worth it to commit a half day for the Visitor Program when the ASD is only a few weeks away? I would have to take time off of work to attend otherwise I would absolutely take advantage of the one-on-one time the Visitor Program offers.

thanks

No, I just called admissions and asked for a tour. The tour was just another applicant and myself with a tour guide.

If you're pretty sure you'll go to USF, then the visiting programs are probably not of much value, as far as I can assume. Unless you are still seeking information for your decision, I'm sure you'll learn all you need to about the school as you go through orientation.

[drdolittle]

Hey, has anyone participated in USF's New Student Visitor Program?
(Great Satchmo - is this what you took part in?)

I'm fairly confident that I will be placing my deposit with USF since I doubt I'll be receiving any significant acceptances within the next 10 days that'll sway me away USF completely. I'm just wondering, is it worth it to commit a half day for the Visitor Program when the ASD is only a few weeks away? I would have to take time off of work to attend otherwise I would absolutely take advantage of the one-on-one time the Visitor Program offers.

thanks

No, I just called admissions and asked for a tour. The tour was just another applicant and myself with a tour guide.

If you're pretty sure you'll go to USF, then the visiting programs are probably not of much value, as far as I can assume. Unless you are still seeking information for your decision, I'm sure you'll learn all you need to about the school as you go through orientation.

I think this is great advice unless you're completely unfamiliar with the area/city and you have misgivings about living in SF or you have a legitimate alternative. Although I haven't gone on an official campus tour of the law school, I did do part of my undergrad at USF and from my perspective GS gave an excellent description of the school's atmosphere. On the other hand, considering the magnitude of this decision, a visit might be worth it to seal the deal if you have any doubts.

[Norwood]

Thanks. This was what I was thinking also, I just wanted to be sure I wasn't going to miss out on something that I couldn't get from the upcoming Admitted Students Day on the 24th. I guess I'll probably save the trouble of taking time off of work and just wait until the 24th to gain more info about USF.

[Great Satchmo]

If you already know you'll deposit, I don't think there is anything to "miss out on".

Frankly, I'm a little confused why people would go to an admitted students day after they deposit unless they double-deposit or may get off a waitlist that could make them reconsider their decision.

On the other hand, if you are still up in the air, by all means you should visit.

[Norwood]

Frankly, I'm a little confused why people would go to an admitted students day after they deposit unless they double-deposit or may get off a waitlist that could make them reconsider their decision.

I may not have been as clear before, but I fall in the latter...

the first deposit deadline is the 15th, which is only a few more days away, and I still have two more schools to hear back from (1 pending, 1 WL) that I would strongly consider along with USF. I'm not counting on getting those decisions by the 15th. Therefore, I would like to experience the school before visits are over (4/23 last day to visit/sit-in class) and wanted to know if there was any advantage I can get from the visitor program that asd may not provide. I agree, if I were fully committed to USF then the visiting/observing won't offer much value except a nice lil preview. Although, I think going to an admitted students day even after being committed still offers some good opportunities to look for housing, develop connections with other possible classmates, and get free food!

[Great Satchmo]

Frankly, I'm a little confused why people would go to an admitted students day after they deposit unless they double-deposit or may get off a waitlist that could make them reconsider their decision.

I may not have been as clear before, but I fall in the latter...

the first deposit deadline is the 15th, which is only a few more days away, and I still have two more schools to hear back from (1 pending, 1 WL) that I would strongly consider along with USF. I'm not counting on getting those decisions by the 15th. Therefore, I would like to experience the school before visits are over (4/23 last day to visit/sit-in class) and wanted to know if there was any advantage I can get from the visitor program that asd may not provide. I agree, if I were fully committed to USF then the visiting/observing won't offer much value except a nice lil preview. Although, I think going to an admitted students day even after being committed still offers some good opportunities to look for housing, develop connections with other possible classmates, and get free food!

I definitely misunderstood.

Then yes, visit the school however you can. I imagine that as long as you know what you need to ask, or want to know, you can just do a tour with a student set-up through the admissions office and get everything you need. They are trying to sell you on the school, so just ask the admissions office for what you think you need to make an informed decision.

[Norwood]

Hey Satchmo, sounds like you've visited a lot of schools through CA

Just wondering, how did you feel about USF's class compared to the other schools such as SCU, McGeorge, and Hastings? specifically did you feel that students were significantly more/less involved, intelligent, etc? A quick comparison across these schools would be very interesting. I've only had an opportunity to visit and observe Civ pro at SCU so far. I didn't really like how the class was huge and it was usually the same 3-4 people contributing unless called upon.

(Not just limiting this post to Great Satchmo, anyone's opinion would be helpful also!)

[Great Satchmo]

Hey Satchmo, sounds like you've visited a lot of schools through CA

Just wondering, how did you feel about USF's class compared to the other schools such as SCU, McGeorge, and Hastings? specifically did you feel that students were significantly more/less involved, intelligent, etc? A quick comparison across these schools would be very interesting. I've only had an opportunity to visit and observe Civ pro at SCU so far. I didn't really like how the class was huge and it was usually the same 3-4 people contributing unless called upon.

(Not just limiting this post to Great Satchmo, anyone's opinion would be helpful also!)

I've only sat in on a real course at USF, so I can't compare the students.

However, I would be weary about extrapolating too much from sitting in one one class - the students are not the same across all courses, you'll be entering with new students, could be a tiring week of material, professor could have an up/down day, etc, etc, etc.

I can say that the lecture halls at USF seemed to be smaller than other schools I've visited, but I think they have a relatively smaller entering class (~200?).

[Ivy0329]

I visited a few weeks ago and everything mentioned is dead on...

I really loved USF and am bummed they didn't give me a scholarship...whereas McGeorge gave me 25K/yr with no GPA stipulation.

Still (not to knock anyone going to McGeorge) I absolutely did not like McGeorge and couldn't see myself going there.

Everyone (in real life and TLS) tells me I'd be crazy to turn down that scholarship since USF is so similar. I've really gone back and forth about at what point does happiness and having a good law school experience outtrump debt....

For some I guess it would be a no brainer but I'm really conflicted...

Hey star10, I'm in the same boat as you. McGeorge offered me the same amount but USF didn't offer me any money. I do really want to live in SF for law school though (and I've not heard back from Hastings yet so that's still up in the air). Have you made a decision yet?

[star10]

I visited a few weeks ago and everything mentioned is dead on...

I really loved USF and am bummed they didn't give me a scholarship...whereas McGeorge gave me 25K/yr with no GPA stipulation.

Still (not to knock anyone going to McGeorge) I absolutely did not like McGeorge and couldn't see myself going there.

Everyone (in real life and TLS) tells me I'd be crazy to turn down that scholarship since USF is so similar. I've really gone back and forth about at what point does happiness and having a good law school experience outtrump debt....

For some I guess it would be a no brainer but I'm really conflicted...

Hey star10, I'm in the same boat as you. McGeorge offered me the same amount but USF didn't offer me any money. I do really want to live in SF for law school though (and I've not heard back from Hastings yet so that's still up in the air). Have you made a decision yet?

I decided on McGeorge. I didn't really like the school when I went to Legal Scholars Day...the whole day was just overwhelming and I felt like they were really shoving the school down my throat. I went and visited the school again last weekend and felt a lot better about it. Yeah it's not San Francisco, but you can't really compare Sacramento to San Francisco...it's like apples and oranges. It was a really tough decision, but here were my main deciding factors:

*Quality of the schools: I feel like all things aside, the education I would get at McG was fairly equal to the one I would get at USF. Just strictly looking at rankings, they are ranked about the same by USNWR and seem to flip flop each year on which school is at the tail end of T2 and beginning of T3. The edge here went to McGeorge who I felt had much more helpful and accessible staff (admissions, career devel., etc)

*Job Prospects: While I want to work in SF after law school, I realize that this may be a lot more difficult in reality to find a solid job. I feel like while USF is IN San Fran, there's a lot more competition from SCU, Hastings, Davis, Berk, Stanford, T-14, etc etc. I felt my chances of landing a good job in sacramento where McGeorge is looked very favorably on was a lot more appealing than duking it out as a USF grad and ending up reviewing contracts for $20 an hour in San Fran. Yes, I know lots of USF grads end up with great jobs but I felt the odds were more in my favor at McGeorge.

*Location: when it came down to it, what I really liked about USF was its location. Yes the school was nice and there were a lot of positives about the program in general, what REALLY got me was the idea of living in SF. The more I thought about it realistically though, I realized how broke and busy I would be in law school which wasn't really conducive to getting the most out of living in such an AMAZING city. I have a lot of friends in the city as well, so I think that would be really distracting and a bit of a bummer that I wouldn't be able to hang out with them as much as I would like. Obviously living and going to school in the city you want to work in creates better networking opportunities for after graduation, but I think that if I am really proactive I can make it happen even at another school. There is always the possibility of summer internships and according to the CDO at McGeorge, there is a decent McG alumni network in SF (it IS less than 2 hours away)

*Debt: As unfortunate as it was, this was probably the biggest factor in my decision. 75K is a lot of money in its own right, but once you add on the interest that would accumulate if you took out that amount in loans and also factor in the money you would have to make after taxes to pay it back...well, it's a scary thought. I also felt that McGeorge seemed to offer more opportunities for 2L/3L scholarships, thus cutting the cost down even more. USF seemed a bit more tight on money; it seemed that only if you were in the top 5-10% you'd get any significant money otherwise maaaybe a small $7500 scholarship if you were in the top 30 (I think, I may be wrong about this figure). Plus cost of living is so much cheaper in Sacramento...it really adds up. I feel like if I graduated with less debt, I would have a little more flexibility in finding a job I liked instead of being pressed into a not-so ideal job because of a huge looming debt payment.

Anyways, these were my thoughts. Hope it helps for you or anyone making a similar decision. Sorry for writing such a novel and apologies for the 463248562 grammatical errors

[pomfiend]

I visited a few weeks ago and everything mentioned is dead on...

I really loved USF and am bummed they didn't give me a scholarship...whereas McGeorge gave me 25K/yr with no GPA stipulation.

Still (not to knock anyone going to McGeorge) I absolutely did not like McGeorge and couldn't see myself going there.

Everyone (in real life and TLS) tells me I'd be crazy to turn down that scholarship since USF is so similar. I've really gone back and forth about at what point does happiness and having a good law school experience outtrump debt....

For some I guess it would be a no brainer but I'm really conflicted...

Hey star10, I'm in the same boat as you. McGeorge offered me the same amount but USF didn't offer me any money. I do really want to live in SF for law school though (and I've not heard back from Hastings yet so that's still up in the air). Have you made a decision yet?

It sounds like we're in a similar situation too. I have my heart set on getting established in SF but USF didn't offer me a dime. However, a school in my hometown offered me a great scholarship but I'm just not as enthusiastic about going there. Does anyone think paying sticker at USF is worth it? I've visited the campus already and was pretty happy with it. Also, I am very interested in PI law and there seems to be a strong PI emphasis there.

[Great Satchmo]

Star 10 - Your post sounds exactly like my thoughts, although I'm still not sure which way I'm going yet.

Pomfiend - That's a really personal question involving questions about how you feel about debt and how much the place matters to you. To me, I know San Francisco is worth money, but I haven't quantified it yet (I already live here). However, it's a competitive market with a lot of schools, so it can be tough.

[Ivy0329]

I visited a few weeks ago and everything mentioned is dead on...

I really loved USF and am bummed they didn't give me a scholarship...whereas McGeorge gave me 25K/yr with no GPA stipulation.

Still (not to knock anyone going to McGeorge) I absolutely did not like McGeorge and couldn't see myself going there.

Everyone (in real life and TLS) tells me I'd be crazy to turn down that scholarship since USF is so similar. I've really gone back and forth about at what point does happiness and having a good law school experience outtrump debt....

For some I guess it would be a no brainer but I'm really conflicted...

Hey star10, I'm in the same boat as you. McGeorge offered me the same amount but USF didn't offer me any money. I do really want to live in SF for law school though (and I've not heard back from Hastings yet so that's still up in the air). Have you made a decision yet?

It sounds like we're in a similar situation too. I have my heart set on getting established in SF but USF didn't offer me a dime. However, a school in my hometown offered me a great scholarship but I'm just not as enthusiastic about going there. Does anyone think paying sticker at USF is worth it? I've visited the campus already and was pretty happy with it. Also, I am very interested in PI law and there seems to be a strong PI emphasis there.

Star10, thank you for your detailed response. I have until April 15th to make a decision and I'm leaning toward USF (assuming that I don't get into any of the schools I've not heard back from). You made some really good points but I've really got my heart set on practicing in SF. While McGeorge has a good alumni network, I don't think it extends too much beyond the Sacramento area (I've not done extensive research but this is what I've been hearing from law students and attorneys I known and currently work with). I think when it comes to regional schools (i.e., T2 or T3), it's important to go to the school that will help you get established in the region in which you want to practice. It's not going to be easy to establish a good network when you're in Sac, if you want to practice in the City. But then again, 25K is pretty good money and I completely agree with you from a financial standpoint.

Pomfiend, my focus is also public interest. Do you mind telling me where your hometown is? Is it in Cali? There's a public interest loan forgiveness program. If you're sure about pursuing a career in public interest, you should look into it (if you haven't already).

[pomfiend]

Great Satchmo - I know what you mean. I have been thinking this over and I am certain that going to school in SF would be worth it to me because I love it there so much. However, I am worried that with the tough competition in the area, coming from USF with tons of debt may be a bad idea. I am waitlisted at Hastings and will definitely be riding it out. If I got into Hastings I know I would for sure attend and pay sticker without thinking twice about it.

Ivy0329 - The other school I'm strongly considering is Chapman. I've toured the campus and it's pretty nice. I received a great scholarship from them, plus I would be able to live at home, so going there would definitely leave me in less debt. I just don't think I want to practice in orange county for that long. I'm so indecisive about this. My impression is that the quality of education I would receive at Chapman is roughly similar to what I would receive at USF, and I'm not sure if location is a good enough justification for paying sticker at USF. I've been meaning to look into USF's LRAP program, thanks for bringing that up.

I wish you both the best with your decisions.

[Great Satchmo]

Great Satchmo - I know what you mean. I have been thinking this over and I am certain that going to school in SF would be worth it to me because I love it there so much. However, I am worried that with the tough competition in the area, coming from USF with tons of debt may be a bad idea. I am waitlisted at Hastings and will definitely be riding it out. If I got into Hastings I know I would for sure attend and pay sticker without thinking twice about it.

I wish you both the best with your decisions.

I'm waiting on Davis and WL'd at Hastings, if accepted to either I'd go without a second thought and eat any deposits I may end up putting down elsewhere.

My McGeorge scholarship is significantly better than that at USF. I think I might be ok living in Sacramento for a while, beyond school, if it's a job that makes me happy, however I know the Bay Area is where I'd like to set-up my adult life.

My friend is a 3L at McGeorge and has worked in career services, so he has a good idea of what the options are. If you are a good student and work hard at networking, you can certainly get back to the Bay for work, but it's not going to have the "prestige" or ease that an equally performing USF student would have in the job market (relative ease, that is).

I know I'd feel more comfortable at USF, both in the city (which is home now) and the campus (it felt "right" to me). I've been to Sacramento a fair amount to visit my friend in school there, and it's not a bad place - there are enough places to go that I doubt a motivated 20-something would be overly bored. Plus, access to government may give me options for public policy/advocacy that is on the back of my mind. However, I would always know that the Bay is where I want to be.

I really don't know what I'll do at this moment. I'm waiting to see if I can have my May acceptance to Cardozo deferred to January, which would make it an option. The idea of NYC is AMAZING to me, but I'm a CA kid (San Diego and Bay Area) and I fear that the culture and lifestyle here will better suit me despite the crazy city that NYC has to be (I love that there is so much to do outdoors here, you can get to beautiful areas very easily).

With this week over and no word from Davis, I'm going to have to file it under "assumed WL" in a few days, and really decide between USF and McGeorge (I have acceptances at USD with no money as of right now, and Cal Western with full + book stipend, but I don't think I want to move back to San Diego).

Should be an interesting week...

Good luck to all in their decisions!

[Ivy0329]

Hi Guys,

Just for those who are trying to decide between USF and McGeorge, 2010-2011 rankings just came out. Apparently they're ranked the same now.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/rankings.html

I still picked USF because of its location though.