Rutgers Newark Forum

[MIA]

@ keg 411:

Entering class 2008:
GPA 25%/75%: 2.99/3.56
LSAT 25%/75%: 155-160

These numbers were the ones that were used for the current rankings of 87

Entering class 2009 (current 1L's):
GPA 25%/75%: 3.13/3.60 -- .14 points increase in 25% and .04 increase in 75%
LSAT 25%/75%: 155-161 -- 1 point increase in 75%
http://law.newark.rutgers.edu/about-school/quick-facts
These numbers will be used for the rankings that come out on April 15th

Their selectivity rate also increased substantially. Although I won't put too much emphasize on this b/c I think most schools increased their selectivity).

Although they increased their LSAT by 1 point, I think what's most significant is their GPA increase. I think this increase will be reflected in the upcoming rankings. I honestly think there is no way Rutgers is going to be a TTT. We have a new Dean this year who was the senior counselor and team leader for the 9/11 commission report, and he even appeared in the Colbert report this year. He has a strong reputation in the tri-state area.

@bernie
Take it easy there dude...

[keg411]

Thanks MIA. I've had a long weekend and the poster who was like "TTT" just rubbed me a bit because it has been something that has been the back of my mind regarding RU-N the entire time I've been focusing on the school. Obviously, I'm pretty sure it isn't happening, but it's just a random "fear". Believe me, it's still a huge question for me between RU-N and RU-C and ranking really doesn't mean all that much and I still have plenty of faith in RU-N's reputation and job placement in NJ .

@bernie: Go to Seton Hall. Please.

[get it to x]

I don't think R-N is dropping into the third tier. And if it is, SJU will be right on its heels. It took a similar tumble in the rankings and has a brand new dean. Don't know how new the Rutgers dean is. Any school could take a significant tumble at any time. It's really beyond any of our control. If the school fits your needs and provides you with access to the markets you want (In this case north Jersey,
NYC, and maybe Philly) then it might be for you. Mid-sized NJ law firms pay 6 figures to 1st year associates so all is not lost if you can't break into the NYC market or get the dream job at Wachtell if that's what you're shooting for. Personally, I'd rather not have a school pander to me with lots of hoopla only to find out that it doesn't live up to its own hype. For me, it's better to know up front what I'm getting so at the least I can't blame the place for not being forthright.

[bernie shmegma]

Thanks MIA. I've had a long weekend and the poster who was like "TTT" just rubbed me a bit because it has been something that has been the back of my mind regarding RU-N the entire time I've been focusing on the school. Obviously, I'm pretty sure it isn't happening, but it's just a random "fear". Believe me, it's still a huge question for me between RU-N and RU-C and ranking really doesn't mean all that much and I still have plenty of faith in RU-N's reputation and job placement in NJ .

@bernie: Go to Seton Hall. Please.

Keg, my apologies for the insensitivity and ignorance of human emotions. My impatience is both an asset and a flaw. In this case, I suppose it was a flaw, but hope that you can later return and re-consider the core of my message when the time is right for you. Well, I regret to inform you that I have declined my offer from Cardozo and Seton Hall. Your only hope now is Brooklyn.

MIA or Rutgers1L: How many people are active in the Federalist Society at RU? Do they have a significant presence on campus?

[Bigbub75]

So I have decided to attend RU-Newark. I went to Camden's ASD and while the new building is awesome, and the pulled out all the stops, in my gut I feel like Newark is the better choice for me. I plan on mailing my deposit tomorrow, and withdrawing from all the other schools where I was accepted. So happy to have this part of the process be over. Although I am sure I will suffer from buyers remorse (I always do for some reason) I know this is a great school and I can't wait to start.

Question for the current RU students: Is Dean Farmer ever around? I have been to the school on three separate occasions and he hasn't been at any of the events. At all of the other schools I have visited the Dean has spoken at the ASD. I thought this was a little weird. I know he is busy with his book and everything, just wondering if this is the norm.

[renee15]

So I was around the area this weekend...As far as what I think my future living situation will be, I liked Ironbound and Harrison a lot so I think I will be looking there!

[Rutgers1L_10]

If you're truly worried about the rank then you should know how it's established.
The reasons people have problems believing RU doesn't give a crap about the ranking is because they assume every school actually cares to do the things it takes to move up in the rankings. If you understand the formulation you'll realize it's a statistical joke. There are no prevalent factors in the rankings that determine the success of a school's student while in school, or after graduation. The rankings don't even take post-graduation success into account. The ranking doesn't care how big the classes are, how many student groups are available, how many professors are available, what kinds of curriculum you're being offered. Rutgers absolutely could control some portion of their ranking. They could do it for 2-3 years and rise on 5-10 spots in that time. There are a myriad of initiatives Rutgers takes on for the sake of it's students, and not for the sake of it's rank. Also, if you know anything about the way the rankings are devised you would know that a school doesn't have to do anything, at all, to drop in the rankings. They can do a lot of positive things for the school (hire new faculty, offer new classes, bring in more employers), but since none of those factors are measured by the ranking, then those things don't count. And a school at a random place in the rankings moving up/down could arbitrarily cause any other school to move up/down just purely by the statistics.
People have said RU has dropped in the last 10 years or so. In that time they've built a multi-million dollar building, got a new dean, hired dozens of new faculty, offered new clinics, and have maintained half a dozen journals. That matters none in the ranking schema.

I don't know what RU ranks now, or what it was last year or 5 years ago or what the highest rank it's ever held has been. But I assure you if they really wanted the school's rank to change they could affect that number. Don't let it get into your head that the ranking is out of a school's control.
I'm aware there are many schools ranked higher than RU, the question is WHY? What about the ranking is helping me or what are they offering me for their position in the rankings that another school is not?

The truth is there is the t-14 and then there's regional schools. I would offer money for someone to compare regional schools and find what one ranked school offers that's so impressive over a lower ranked school in the region. Regional employers higher from regional law schools and they don't filter school's based on rank. If you look at the state of connecticut you have 3 good examples. Yale, UConn and Quinnepac. A t-14, A top 100, non-top 100. If you look at regional employers all the one's that hire in the region hire from all 3. Would I turn down Yale for Quinnepac, NO, because that's the t-14 advantage. But if I knew 100% w/o a doubt that I was going to get the same opportunities coming out of the other two I'd go to the cheaper one. (this is probably not the perfect anecdote, because UConn is a public school and may very well be cheaper, but hopefully I made a point about the absurdity of regional rankings in general). I will also add that while I'm sure UConn, another public school in the tri-state is ranked higher than Rutgers, it's also a large public, and I would not choose it over RU (if costs were equal) if I wanted to work in NY. I have yet to see the same number of employers that recruit RU students recruit at UConn. Just another example of the inconsistency in ranking.

If you're worried the school will drop farther in the ranking while you're a student go to a school that actively maintains efforts to keep their rankings high. While, I'm sure RU admins are well aware of the impact rankings have on prospective student, they are much too tied to their overall mission, and rely much too heavily on their current prestige, alumni base, and tradition. Could RU drop below what they are now? Probably.

I hate getting into the ranking discussion because it's mostly futile. It's something you think is a much bigger deal when you're trying to get into school than it is once you're in. I understand wanting to say I got into a T-14 or T-20 or top something, and it just doesn't sound all that smooth saying I go to a third tier school. All I can say is that the rankings matter a lot less than you would think they do, but your personal belief about them is up to your to decide. Personally, I don't mind "ranking" a school, but I truly wish there was a ranking that evaluated the things prospective students needed to know about a school.

[Rutgers1L_10]

So I have decided to attend RU-Newark. I went to Camden's ASD and while the new building is awesome, and the pulled out all the stops, in my gut I feel like Newark is the better choice for me. I plan on mailing my deposit tomorrow, and withdrawing from all the other schools where I was accepted. So happy to have this part of the process be over. Although I am sure I will suffer from buyers remorse (I always do for some reason) I know this is a great school and I can't wait to start.

Question for the current RU students: Is Dean Farmer ever around? I have been to the school on three separate occasions and he hasn't been at any of the events. At all of the other schools I have visited the Dean has spoken at the ASD. I thought this was a little weird. I know he is busy with his book and everything, just wondering if this is the norm.

I usually spot Dean Farmer around, but I can't say I see him a lot. Of course, he attends main functions, and events but for the most part he's working and we're in class.
I think Dean Rothman is the dean you will undoubtedly see the most and have the most interaction with. He has an open door policy, and is actually the dean that wil handle most of the student affairs. Dean Rothman is also a professor so you will likely have him as an upperclassmen, whereas dean Farmer is not.

Congrats on your decision by the way. That's a good feeling to have it out of the way.

[bernie shmegma]

1L: See the link I left Keg a few posts ago. The education discussion is really quite fascinating. That link is one of many resources I have researched on the matter. I have also written papers on this for school & education policy courses. This is why I didn't just go to Cardozo over Rutgers-Newark without much thought. It's also not the only reason I'm not just going to Cardozo, but more the reason for more skepticism than most prospective students consider.

Very briefly and just to scratch the surface... Unfortunately, the ABA and education lobby likes the way things are now. US NEWS reports, the institutions get federal subsidies and students get loans, and schools raise prices obviously to feed themselves to enhance whatever they want to enhance (which aligns with US news), and people think that the federal government is doing everyone a favor. Meanwhile, the lobby in DC makes sure real hard not to allow any governmentally controlled rankings get in the way of this system because its one big score for these institutions. Additionally, schools like Indiana University have started tests that actually measure good schools and results. In a nut shell the actual ratio students improve while at the school and things of that nature are measured. Over 300 schools participate. The catch is that all of this information is absolutely confidential and the DC education lobby ensures that it stays that way (no one knows for undergrad at least how much this info contributes to the 40% of US news reputation measurement- my understanding is Law schools have no such tests, so none goes towards the 40%). One of two things needs to happen. Either The federal government needs to stop this lie that they are helping the system with these public loans and subsidies because it does not help prices and encourages arbitrary ranking methods or otherwise break the basic economic principles by forcing higher education to hand over this information for official reports, governmental rankings, and accountability, and breaking their autonomy. I prefer the former, but that is just because I more of a Milton Friedman libertarian than a Paul Krugman statist. Accreditation, education lobby, ABA, US News are all at fault pretending to point fingers at each other. Meanwhile, prices go up, people have no idea what the education is really worth, and the free market isn't free because we have big brother involved. I think accredidation needs to rank and stop this insider BS. They could keep the IU-type test scores confidential, but produce ranks with methodology being explained, but without showing the allocation and results for each specific part of the measurements for each respective school. The schools maintain autonomy from the government, federal politicians can still pretend their providing affordable education, and students actually have legitimate rankings based on performance tests that are currently classified. The pattern would trickle to Law schools.

You know, US news would adjust their methodology to the market or keep it the same, and cost would be less of a burden and people could got to higher ranked or "more prestigious" schools for a cost that is more like what its actually worth.

This gets more complex, but that sums it up pretty much.

Conclusion: Think for yourself.

If you believe the self-fulfilling prophecy is strong and societal value of prestige is worth the name of a school, so be it. Its understandable to think that way considering that is all we have known in our lifetime. Keep in mind that US news rankings are only as old as we are.

Now obviously the force for being lured into the whole marketability thing is strong and people start to have buyer's remorse so to speak, but I think all of this is a VERY important thing to keep in mind. Obviously Rutgers cares about US news because there is a certain reality to the way things are. They just sacrifice more for other reasons and maintain enough status with this reality while maintaining their more important mission. Obviously within the scope of their "mission allowance" they want their rankings to rise, but not at the cost of giving up THEIR measure of what a good school is for its students, the community, profession, and NJ.

[Rutgers1L_10]

Thanks MIA. I've had a long weekend and the poster who was like "TTT" just rubbed me a bit because it has been something that has been the back of my mind regarding RU-N the entire time I've been focusing on the school. Obviously, I'm pretty sure it isn't happening, but it's just a random "fear". Believe me, it's still a huge question for me between RU-N and RU-C and ranking really doesn't mean all that much and I still have plenty of faith in RU-N's reputation and job placement in NJ .

@bernie: Go to Seton Hall. Please.

Keg, my apologies for the insensitivity and ignorance of human emotions. My impatience is both an asset and a flaw. In this case, I suppose it was a flaw, but hope that you can later return and re-consider the core of my message when the time is right for you. Well, I regret to inform you that I have declined my offer from Cardozo and Seton Hall. Your only hope now is Brooklyn.

MIA or Rutgers1L: How many people are active in the Federalist Society at RU? Do they have a significant presence on campus?

There is a federalist society and they "table" like any other student group. That is they put a table in the atrium and encourage people to sign up to attend meetings, become class representatives, and participate in their events. Are they the most stand out group at the school, probably not. I would imagine they are slightly more outnumbered in the general student body. But, I can't think of any one student group that is truly representative of the law school. There's so many student groups and they all have their own presence. Nobody is going to give you dirty looks if you walk over to the table and chit chat, or sign up with the Federalist (or any other group). RU students are for the most part pretty accepting.

[afterglow99]

If you're truly worried about the rank then you should know how it's established.
The reasons people have problems believing RU doesn't give a crap about the ranking is because they assume every school actually cares to do the things it takes to move up in the rankings. If you understand the formulation you'll realize it's a statistical joke. There are no prevalent factors in the rankings that determine the success of a school's student while in school, or after graduation. The rankings don't even take post-graduation success into account. The ranking doesn't care how big the classes are, how many student groups are available, how many professors are available, what kinds of curriculum you're being offered. Rutgers absolutely could control some portion of their ranking. They could do it for 2-3 years and rise on 5-10 spots in that time. There are a myriad of initiatives Rutgers takes on for the sake of it's students, and not for the sake of it's rank. Also, if you know anything about the way the rankings are devised you would know that a school doesn't have to do anything, at all, to drop in the rankings. They can do a lot of positive things for the school (hire new faculty, offer new classes, bring in more employers), but since none of those factors are measured by the ranking, then those things don't count. And a school at a random place in the rankings moving up/down could arbitrarily cause any other school to move up/down just purely by the statistics.
People have said RU has dropped in the last 10 years or so. In that time they've built a multi-million dollar building, got a new dean, hired dozens of new faculty, offered new clinics, and have maintained half a dozen journals. That matters none in the ranking schema.

I don't know what RU ranks now, or what it was last year or 5 years ago or what the highest rank it's ever held has been. But I assure you if they really wanted the school's rank to change they could affect that number. Don't let it get into your head that the ranking is out of a school's control.
I'm aware there are many schools ranked higher than RU, the question is WHY? What about the ranking is helping me or what are they offering me for their position in the rankings that another school is not?

The truth is there is the t-14 and then there's regional schools. I would offer money for someone to compare regional schools and find what one ranked school offers that's so impressive over a lower ranked school in the region. Regional employers higher from regional law schools and they don't filter school's based on rank. If you look at the state of connecticut you have 3 good examples. Yale, UConn and Quinnepac. A t-14, A top 100, non-top 100. If you look at regional employers all the one's that hire in the region hire from all 3. Would I turn down Yale for Quinnepac, NO, because that's the t-14 advantage. But if I knew 100% w/o a doubt that I was going to get the same opportunities coming out of the other two I'd go to the cheaper one. (this is probably not the perfect anecdote, because UConn is a public school and may very well be cheaper, but hopefully I made a point about the absurdity of regional rankings in general). I will also add that while I'm sure UConn, another public school in the tri-state is ranked higher than Rutgers, it's also a large public, and I would not choose it over RU (if costs were equal) if I wanted to work in NY. I have yet to see the same number of employers that recruit RU students recruit at UConn. Just another example of the inconsistency in ranking.

If you're worried the school will drop farther in the ranking while you're a student go to a school that actively maintains efforts to keep their rankings high. While, I'm sure RU admins are well aware of the impact rankings have on prospective student, they are much too tied to their overall mission, and rely much too heavily on their current prestige, alumni base, and tradition. Could RU drop below what they are now? Probably.

I hate getting into the ranking discussion because it's mostly futile. It's something you think is a much bigger deal when you're trying to get into school than it is once you're in. I understand wanting to say I got into a T-14 or T-20 or top something, and it just doesn't sound all that smooth saying I go to a third tier school. All I can say is that the rankings matter a lot less than you would think they do, but your personal belief about them is up to your to decide. Personally, I don't mind "ranking" a school, but I truly wish there was a ranking that evaluated the things prospective students needed to know about a school.

Well taken. It's certainly true that schools move up and down in the rank based more on what OTHER schools do than what they do themselves. A change in rank, even a drastic one, most likely doesn't indicate a change in educational opportunities. Nevertheless, it's still something to be worried about as it could become a self fulfilling prophecy over the decades. If Rutgers fell to T3, this would certainly effect the quality of future applicants and the school's lay prestige. It's not enough to say the school would still be offering good opportunities, as outside perceptions of the the edu quality are important, even if they fall short of the true reality of the education. Employers in NJ probably wouldn't think much of Rutgers falling off the T3 cliff because the alumni base is so strong, but what about in NY where competition is at another level and there's not the same knowledge about what the school can offer? This is where the rank drop could come into play.

Also, I would generally agree that MOST regional schools are basically the same, as seton hall/dozo/bls/st johns/rutgers will all provide students with similar career prospects. The NYC exception, however, is Fordham. It's clearly a regional school (placement outside of NYC is surprisingly bad), but Rutgers and the others really can't keep up with it in terms of Big Law placement. They are on another level. Reasonable minds could disagree as to whether they are worth the extra 25k/yr in tuition over Rutgers, but that's another debate.

[bernie shmegma]

Thanks MIA. I've had a long weekend and the poster who was like "TTT" just rubbed me a bit because it has been something that has been the back of my mind regarding RU-N the entire time I've been focusing on the school. Obviously, I'm pretty sure it isn't happening, but it's just a random "fear". Believe me, it's still a huge question for me between RU-N and RU-C and ranking really doesn't mean all that much and I still have plenty of faith in RU-N's reputation and job placement in NJ .

@bernie: Go to Seton Hall. Please.

Keg, my apologies for the insensitivity and ignorance of human emotions. My impatience is both an asset and a flaw. In this case, I suppose it was a flaw, but hope that you can later return and re-consider the core of my message when the time is right for you. Well, I regret to inform you that I have declined my offer from Cardozo and Seton Hall. Your only hope now is Brooklyn.

MIA or Rutgers1L: How many people are active in the Federalist Society at RU? Do they have a significant presence on campus?

There is a federalist society and they "table" like any other student group. That is they put a table in the atrium and encourage people to sign up to attend meetings, become class representatives, and participate in their events. Are they the most stand out group at the school, probably not. I would imagine they are slightly more outnumbered in the general student body. But, I can't think of any one student group that is truly representative of the law school. There's so many student groups and they all have their own presence. Nobody is going to give you dirty looks if you walk over to the table and chit chat, or sign up with the Federalist (or any other group). RU students are for the most part pretty accepting.

I don't know if you picked up on this through implications in my other posts, but I love how you pre-empt that being accepted at RU by fellow students and not receiving dirty looks would be a thought for one interested in the Federalist Society.

[wizoz]

@Wizoz and anyone else-- here are some highlights from ASD on Friday.

I have to agree with one of the previous posts about RU not trying to "sell" itself too hard but simply showcasing what they have to offer and allowing you to decide if that's the right place for you.

Some impt. take aways--> the clinical program placement process--it was mentioned that you may not get your first pick as a 2L but that you would ultimately be placed in your first choice if you had not gotten it originally.

The scholarships available as a 2L and 3L are not very large-- max like 3K. Usually people get 1 to 2k.

They were pushing clerkships hard-which goes along with their placement numbers.

I spoke to one of the career services representatives because I wanted to gauge how supportive they would be in helping you reach out to firms that don't recruit at Rutgers and it does seem like there is a good amount of students who do some of the leg work on their own. With some guidance from that office-they seem to be successful.

I thought all the professors showed great enthusiasm for the work they're doing and they were all really funny. Dean Walton was actually nice (i've had awful experiences with her and the admissions office on the phone)

There were three different panels you could attend, family law, criminal law and an eminent domain related one. They stressed that you should not work during your first semester---maybe your second semester. Also, if you DO receive WORK-STUDY as part of your financial aid-'delay' it to your second semester but def take "SOME" of it-- even if it's a small amount. If you reject Work Study funds--you will not be offered them again.

What's the best preparation for law school?? Be a 50 book a year reader. Get used to reading for long periods of time without wanting to go on Facebook. ha! As a lawyer you've chosen to be a "professional reader".

The financial aid rep- Nicky Fornarotto was super helpful and very detailed on her kind of long presentation.

This is gr8! Thanks for the recap.

[inSouthAmerica]

@everypersononthisthread - Stop worrying about the USnews rankings. Worry about employment outcomes and the cost of attendance to probability of gainful employment ratio. Thanks.

[bernie shmegma]

@everypersononthisthread - Stop worrying about the USnews rankings. Worry about employment outcomes and the cost of attendance to probability of gainful employment ratio. Thanks.

How's the weather down there?

[inSouthAmerica]

rainy season...

[Need to be ACCEPTED]

I am new to this forum and curious to know is there a typical time-line for acceptance/denial? I submitted my application 2/23 and went complete on 3/12. My concern is, after reviewing everyone's post, that seat deposits seem to be due on April 1st and today is the 29th and I have yet to here anything.

[get it to x]

Just checked my letter and the due date is April 15? Weird. Anyone else have an April 15 seat deposit deadline?

[bernie shmegma]

I am new to this forum and curious to know is there a typical time-line for acceptance/denial? I submitted my application 2/23 and went complete on 3/12. My concern is, after reviewing everyone's post, that seat deposits seem to be due on April 1st and today is the 29th and I have yet to here anything.

Welcome! They got back to me in two weeks from my app status becoming complete. You should hear soon. Obviously they will not expect you to pay your deposit on April 1st if they accept you. You should hear this week from what I know as their turnover time line. I could be wrong, but I know myself and a buddy heard in about two weeks. Good luck!

[bernie shmegma]

Just checked my letter and the due date is April 15? Weird. Anyone else have an April 15 seat deposit deadline?

April 1st in Bold on my letter...

[clc8883]

I have started a Facebook group for our class, thought it would be good for us to start chatting with each other, get roommate situations squared away, etc. Anyway, it is Rutgers-Newark School of Law Class of 2013---hope to see some of you guys on there!!!!

[inSouthAmerica]

maybe this link will work?

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?v=inf ... 6588982164

[wizoz]

Just checked my letter and the due date is April 15? Weird. Anyone else have an April 15 seat deposit deadline?

My seat deposit is also due on 4/15. So, it's fair to say the due date depends on when you were accepted.

[keg411]

Just checked my letter and the due date is April 15? Weird. Anyone else have an April 15 seat deposit deadline?

My seat deposit is also due on 4/15. So, it's fair to say the due date depends on when you were accepted.

Dean Walton said she was able to extend mine to 4/15. Very helpful!

[pink_law14]

I submitted end of January and I've been complete since 2/12 and haven't heard a peep... what are they waiting for? Any ideas about time-line? I need to start making a decision. I'm in-state by the way, 3.2/154 Female... HURRY UP RUTGERS and just decide to reject or wait list me