Yale c/o 2020 Applicants (2016-2017) Forum

[Rdominicana15]

I posed an honest question and was immediately bombarded with degrading and snide comments

First of all, there's nothing about a question being honest that makes it immune from criticism. Particularly one about race, duh.

Secondly, the subtext of the way you asked, then re-asked, and then responded to our responses, gave us some clues as to what you seemed to be getting at.

Even despite that, multiple respondents (myself included) semi-empathized but felt the need to point out some things you seemed to be overlooking (like, it's not all about you; you will be just fine with your alternative options, etc). Nevertheless, you chose to get offended and take it personally. Alas. At this point, all I can say is, good luck.

I just wanted to thank many of you for your comments. It is too often people achieve the success of URMs to being URMs. URMs are not getting in because of the color of their skin. Thank you for engaging in this conversation, it definitely makes me see that there are people out there who don't feel like URMs are getting handouts.

[Studybuddy17]

I posed an honest question and was immediately bombarded with degrading and snide comments

First of all, there's nothing about a question being honest that makes it immune from criticism. Particularly one about race, duh.

Secondly, the subtext of the way you asked, then re-asked, and then responded to our responses, gave us some clues as to what you seemed to be getting at.

Even despite that, multiple respondents (myself included) semi-empathized but felt the need to point out some things you seemed to be overlooking (like, it's not all about you; you will be just fine with your alternative options, etc). Nevertheless, you chose to get offended and take it personally. Alas. At this point, all I can say is, good luck.

I just wanted to thank many of you for your comments. It is too often people achieve the success of URMs to being URMs. URMs are not getting in because of the color of their skin. Thank you for engaging in this conversation, it definitely makes me see that there are people out there who don't feel like URMs are getting handouts.

I have no doubt in my mind that any URM's admitted at Yale had overwhelming qualifications and circumstances. My point was only to raise a question of whether disadvantage and circumstance independent of the racial sphere are sufficiently being acknowledged.

[Monday]

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[Studybuddy17]

What you are all saying is definitely true, it's just hard to absorb the reality of having worked so hard with everything in my capacity to build up excellent stats and still being rejected.

+1. Thanks for being willing to ask these questions. I wouldn't say I have a firm opinion either way on race and admissions, but too often only one side gets represented in debate and treated like the obviously correct answer - whereas I think it's definitely an open question whether this practice is truly just or fair.

Thank you! My intent as well is not to advocate one specific side. I am always open to any discussion and criticism as long as it is respectful

[pretzeltime]

Ultimately, this just ain't the best place to discuss this stuff. It doesn't work well. Especially when all of the remaining waiters are on a short fuse and prone to saltiness.

[dyebri]

I personally know urms that they're numbers and credentials are nowhere near some of the people who were rejected to Yale. But they somehow managed to get in

[seeprybyrun]

I posed an honest question and was immediately bombarded with degrading and snide comments. If anyone wants to know what truly hinders opportunity and achievement it is narrow-minded obstinate and unaccepting people that pose the real obstacles. Meanwhile this has been a nice prep for dealing with some disrespectful over-zealous individuals that I will likely encounter in law school

The comments were far from disrespectful or snide; rather, you are taking too much offense. Instead, as a person with undoubtedly a lot of privilege in your life, it would be a good idea for you to listen carefully to others' opinions about race and privilege---especially from those with different backgrounds and life experiences---and to learn from them. Don't take offense and don't become defensive. Nobody is saying you're a bad person but rather we are challenging potentially biased assumptions you have.

Your initial question was hyperbolic ("have any non-URMs been admitted?", emphasis added) and appears to belie a false assumption that Yale admits a disproportionate number of URMs. As I presented in my earlier post, the data do not support that assumption: the proportion of URMs admitted to YLS appears to track well with the proportion of URMs in the country's population.

[dyebri]

I posed an honest question and was immediately bombarded with degrading and snide comments. If anyone wants to know what truly hinders opportunity and achievement it is narrow-minded obstinate and unaccepting people that pose the real obstacles. Meanwhile this has been a nice prep for dealing with some disrespectful over-zealous individuals that I will likely encounter in law school

The comments were far from disrespectful or snide; rather, you are taking too much offense. Instead, as a person with undoubtedly a lot of privilege in your life, it would be a good idea for you to listen carefully to others' opinions about race and privilege---especially from those with different backgrounds and life experiences---and to learn from them. Don't take offense and don't become defensive. Nobody is saying you're a bad person but rather we are challenging potentially biased assumptions you have.


To be honest they do accept a disproportionate amount of Urm. About half the class is. This isn't racist or mean. This is just truth. That means half the class they are rejecting is non Urm and equally qualified

Your initial question was hyperbolic ("have any non-URMs been admitted?", emphasis added) and appears to belie a false assumption that Yale admits a disproportionate number of URMs. As I presented in my earlier post, the data do not support that assumption: the proportion of URMs admitted to YLS appears to track well with the proportion of URMs in the country's population.

[whatislife]

I have no doubt in my mind that any URM's admitted at Yale had overwhelming qualifications and circumstances. My point was only to raise a question of whether disadvantage and circumstance independent of the racial sphere are sufficiently being acknowledged.

I do think there are several avenues for us as applicants to signal non-racial difficulties that we've dealt with. Most schools I believe let us talk about socioeconomic class in diversity statements, and there are checkboxes for first-gen students as well. Whether people are shyer about claiming disadvantage in a non-racial way is a different question, of course, and perhaps law schools should do a better job of emphasizing that people should talk about those circumstances. But in terms of avenues to talk about such disadvantages/how they are reviewed vis-a-vis race in ad coms, non-racial disadvantages are definitely acknowledged (although I don't have access to behind-the-scenes deliberations, so perhaps I'm too optimistic in my assessment of how well ad coms factor them in making decisions).

[drjekyllope]

It's not fair that urnms get an advantage. This isn't fucked yo to say. We're all dealing with our own problems

there's a difference between "having your application viewed through the lens of your circumstances" and "getting an advantage". did i score a 180 and have a 4.0 gpa? no, because i just learned what the LSAT was last year and i was the first person in my family to go to college, so i had no clue what i was doing. did i do pretty good despite all that? you betcha.

it's not fair that i have had to spend my life dealing with casual racism, microaggressions, and people casting doubt on my achievements because of my race. it's not fair that these institutions are virtually inaccessible due to high cost and that i have to give up financial freedom for the next 10+ years to get a law degree that will maybe hopefully land me a good job. i think it's pretty damn fair that historically disadvantaged people get a fair shot at places like HYS.

[seeprybyrun]

To be honest they do accept a disproportionate amount of Urm. About half the class is. This isn't racist or mean. This is just truth. That means half the class they are rejecting is non Urm and equally qualified

Source for your data? I already presented my source contradicting your assertion.

[law-school-3458]

Your initial question was hyperbolic ("have any non-URMs been admitted?", emphasis added) and appears to belie a false assumption that Yale admits a disproportionate number of URMs. As I presented in my earlier post, the data do not support that assumption: the proportion of URMs admitted to YLS appears to track well with the proportion of URMs in the country's population.

This doesn't necessarily establish that the number of URMs admitted is not disproportionate. One might plausibly argue that the relevant population is not the country's population as a whole, but the population of qualified law school applicants. (It's not clear why, for example, a demographic with 25% of the American population should therefore have 25% of the spots at Yale Law School.)

[Studybuddy17]

I posed an honest question and was immediately bombarded with degrading and snide comments. If anyone wants to know what truly hinders opportunity and achievement it is narrow-minded obstinate and unaccepting people that pose the real obstacles. Meanwhile this has been a nice prep for dealing with some disrespectful over-zealous individuals that I will likely encounter in law school

The comments were far from disrespectful or snide; rather, you are taking too much offense. Instead, as a person with undoubtedly a lot of privilege in your life, it would be a good idea for you to listen carefully to others' opinions about race and privilege---especially from those with different backgrounds and life experiences---and to learn from them. Don't take offense and don't become defensive. Nobody is saying you're a bad person but rather we are challenging potentially biased assumptions you have.

Your initial question was hyperbolic ("have any non-URMs been admitted?", emphasis added) and appears to belie a false assumption that Yale admits a disproportionate number of URMs. As I presented in my earlier post, the data do not support that assumption: the proportion of URMs admitted to YLS appears to track well with the proportion of URMs in the country's population.

It's interesting how judgemental you can be while at the same time advocating open-mindedness. To assume I am from a privileged background without knowing me is the epitome of judgmentalism. I very likely have experienced more lack of privilege, prejudice, and disadvantage than anyone you ever have known has experienced. I emphasized much of this in my personal statement but the fact is I don't fit into a clear "underrepresented l" situation. That was the sole basis of my comments and intent. To presume I am from a "privileged" background just because of not being a URM only underscores my point

[dyebri]

It's not fair that urnms get an advantage. This isn't fucked yo to say. We're all dealing with our own problems

there's a difference between "having your application viewed through the lens of your circumstances" and "getting an advantage". did i score a 180 and have a 4.0 gpa? no, because i just learned what the LSAT was last year and i was the first person in my family to go to college, so i had no clue what i was doing. did i do pretty good despite all that? you betcha.

it's not fair that i have had to spend my life dealing with casual racism, microaggressions, and people casting doubt on my achievements because of my race. it's not fair that these institutions are virtually inaccessible due to high cost and that i have to give up financial freedom for the next 10+ years to get a law degree that will maybe hopefully land me a good job. i think it's pretty damn fair that historically disadvantaged people get a fair shot at places like HYS.

Their are non Urm who are also the first in the family to learn about what the lsat is and have to take it for the first time and also couldn't have the priveladge of studying for it because they're family's are broken up and they have to raise their siblings on their own. Shouldn't they be given the same amount of advantage. But they don't because of they're color of skin. It's the truth.

[lilitiger99]

I posed an honest question and was immediately bombarded with degrading and snide comments

First of all, there's nothing about a question being honest that makes it immune from criticism. Particularly one about race, duh.

Secondly, the subtext of the way you asked, then re-asked, and then responded to our responses, gave us some clues as to what you seemed to be getting at.

Even despite that, multiple respondents (myself included) semi-empathized but felt the need to point out some things you seemed to be overlooking (like, it's not all about you; you will be just fine with your alternative options, etc). Nevertheless, you chose to get offended and take it personally. Alas. At this point, all I can say is, good luck.

I just wanted to thank many of you for your comments. It is too often people achieve the success of URMs to being URMs. URMs are not getting in because of the color of their skin. Thank you for engaging in this conversation, it definitely makes me see that there are people out there who don't feel like URMs are getting handouts.

I have no doubt in my mind that any URM's admitted at Yale had overwhelming qualifications and circumstances. My point was only to raise a question of whether disadvantage and circumstance independent of the racial sphere are sufficiently being acknowledged.

Read hillbilly elegy. Author admits being a first generation, white, low income student "helped" him in Yale admissions (and he got in during his second cycle of applications.) This is a pretty silly argument. Yale (and other schools) are interested in seeing diversity for valid reasons. They're also interested in creating pipelines & the next generation of people of color as leaders.
That aside - many URMs apply to Yale and are rejected - disadvantages at all. AS a URM, I might think that the successful URMs (those of us with high numbers and t13 admittances) frequent these sites more and update stats more because relatively there are SO few of us.

Reminds me of the chris rock special. No matter how poor a white guy is, he doesn't want to be chris rock. No matter how much y'all are against affirmative action and "envy" the "soft" boosts - you don't want to be in the position to be treated as a minority in this country. Period.

No need to turn this into the oppression Olympics, but let's be serious....

[whatislife]

Your initial question was hyperbolic ("have any non-URMs been admitted?", emphasis added) and appears to belie a false assumption that Yale admits a disproportionate number of URMs. As I presented in my earlier post, the data do not support that assumption: the proportion of URMs admitted to YLS appears to track well with the proportion of URMs in the country's population.

This doesn't necessarily establish that the number of URMs admitted is not disproportionate. One might plausibly argue that the relevant population is not the country's population as a whole, but the population of qualified law school applicants. (It's not clear why, for example, a demographic with 25% of the American population should therefore have 25% of the spots at Yale Law School.)

But how would you define "qualified law school applicants"? If the answer is purely/mostly numerical, and there are reasons to think that certain races have an advantage in that regard, shouldn't the ad com consider judging applicants who had to fight through not as favorable situations differently from applicants who didn't?

[dyebri]

race should not be a factor in admissions. Plain and simple

[HonestlyThough]

I think the important thing is to recognize that our applications gave us non URMs the chance to discuss individual circumstances and disadvantages. In my opinion, yale went above and beyond to prompt us to explore them. They asked about test prep and app assistance and first gen status, etc.

If you didn't speak to your struggles, that's on you.

It feels unfair as hell, to those of you carrying some bitterness. I get it. I really do. I had a 2340 sat in high school, was top of my class, had extracurriculars and leadership roles and work experience. Got rejected from Harvard and Yale and Stanford and Penn for undergrad. I'll admit it made me angry at the time. I felt like I'd been the best applicant I, as a person, could be. People from my HS who'd "achieved" less got spots. None of them were white.

But then I started to learn some shit and opened my eyes to all of the ways in which, DESPITE struggles (my dad had cancer when I was in high school and struggled with unemployment, for example) I faced, others overcame far more. I listened. It's so important to listen.

Now, here I am again with all of the qualifying scores and grades and whatnot. Still not getting in. And, yes, it sucks. But I am completely aware that they are reading all applications. I am not. They are making the choices that seem best based off of the applicants before them. They choose those that they think should be at Yale and those that have showed the most promise through the journies they have undertaken. And that's that.

Also, my PS talked extensively about privilege (including the ways in which I've benefited from it). That was a personal choice. Maybe it made me look like I hadn't worked to be there. And if so, I accept that consequence. I focused on telling the story I needed to tell and highlighting the absolute injustice that has motivated me to go to law school and to fight like hell afterward to make the game of life a little more equal.

Edits: confused high school and college because it's noon and I STILL havent had my coffee

[drjekyllope]

It's not fair that urnms get an advantage. This isn't fucked yo to say. We're all dealing with our own problems

there's a difference between "having your application viewed through the lens of your circumstances" and "getting an advantage". did i score a 180 and have a 4.0 gpa? no, because i just learned what the LSAT was last year and i was the first person in my family to go to college, so i had no clue what i was doing. did i do pretty good despite all that? you betcha.

it's not fair that i have had to spend my life dealing with casual racism, microaggressions, and people casting doubt on my achievements because of my race. it's not fair that these institutions are virtually inaccessible due to high cost and that i have to give up financial freedom for the next 10+ years to get a law degree that will maybe hopefully land me a good job. i think it's pretty damn fair that historically disadvantaged people get a fair shot at places like HYS.

Their are non Urm who are also the first in the family to learn about what the lsat is and have to take it for the first time and also couldn't have the priveladge of studying for it because they're family's are broken up and they have to raise their siblings on their own. Shouldn't they be given the same amount of advantage. But they don't because of they're color of skin. It's the truth.

dude, that's not the truth. if that is someone's circumstance and they write about it in a compelling way and have decent stats, they're gonna get into a good school. you're not gonna get tossed on a reject pile with a story like that just because you're white.

[lilitiger99]

It's not fair that urnms get an advantage. This isn't fucked yo to say. We're all dealing with our own problems

there's a difference between "having your application viewed through the lens of your circumstances" and "getting an advantage". did i score a 180 and have a 4.0 gpa? no, because i just learned what the LSAT was last year and i was the first person in my family to go to college, so i had no clue what i was doing. did i do pretty good despite all that? you betcha.

it's not fair that i have had to spend my life dealing with casual racism, microaggressions, and people casting doubt on my achievements because of my race. it's not fair that these institutions are virtually inaccessible due to high cost and that i have to give up financial freedom for the next 10+ years to get a law degree that will maybe hopefully land me a good job. i think it's pretty damn fair that historically disadvantaged people get a fair shot at places like HYS.

Their are non Urm who are also the first in the family to learn about what the lsat is and have to take it for the first time and also couldn't have the priveladge of studying for it because they're family's are broken up and they have to raise their siblings on their own. Shouldn't they be given the same amount of advantage. But they don't because of they're color of skin. It's the truth.

They do. Read hillbilly elegy from a yale alum. He explicitly states he did not get into "top" schools his first application cycle, and got into yale most likely because of his "boosts" - poor, white, rural - and discussions with faculty.

I find it curious no one bats an eyelash at the alum who posted from another cycle that he got denied from all t13 besides Yale because he had a 158 and just happened to be the son of an important alum. Or applicants like Jared Kushner who's dad had to donate 3 million dollars to get into NYU Law. Aren't they taking away spots from the disadvantaged ?

[seeprybyrun]

Your initial question was hyperbolic ("have any non-URMs been admitted?", emphasis added) and appears to belie a false assumption that Yale admits a disproportionate number of URMs. As I presented in my earlier post, the data do not support that assumption: the proportion of URMs admitted to YLS appears to track well with the proportion of URMs in the country's population.

This doesn't necessarily establish that the number of URMs admitted is not disproportionate. One might plausibly argue that the relevant population is not the country's population as a whole, but the population of qualified law school applicants. (It's not clear why, for example, a demographic with 25% of the American population should therefore have 25% of the spots at Yale Law School.)

It appears we disagree on a common definition of "proportionate," then. To me, that the racial makeup of the incoming class matches the country's demographics seems a reasonable definition of proportionate. If the incoming class overrepresents white people, for example, then it perpetuates the systemic advantage white people already have.

[potterotter]

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[seeprybyrun]

To presume I am from a "privileged" background just because of not being a URM only underscores my point

In my experience, only privileged people make the arguments you are making.

[Studybuddy17]

To presume I am from a "privileged" background just because of not being a URM only underscores my point

In my experience, only privileged people make the arguments you are making.

Maybe it's time to realize that the extent of your experience is not supreme

[pretzeltime]

what if I promised yall that 0% of people in this thread are changing their minds, regardless of what you say