UCONN C/O 2018 Applicants Forum

[Law Man]

It is good that you are pleased with your choice of not going to UConn, and I hope that you succeed in law from where ever you actually went to law school. However, as I said, if you didn't go to one of the Ivies and if you finished in the middle of your class, regardless of where you went, your chances of a job are no better than if you had gone to UConn and finished in the middle of your class. Yes, my son does have a job lined up and is actually in consideration for another as well. The same is pretty much true for all his friends.

Those who finish at the top of their class, especially at UConn and especially in Connecticut and to some degree New York City, will get offers from good firms. This has been a given for as long as I can remember.

I also realize that for those who do not finish at the top of their class, finding jobs is more challenging. But as I said, if you are in the middle of your class at Boston College, or Boston University, you are no better off than being in the middle of your class at UConn, especially in Connecticut and New York. Like it or not, that is the reality. Also, as I said, if you are not in one of the top 15 or so law schools in the country, i.e., the Ivy League and a few others, then you are delusional if you think that anything except finishing at the very top of your class will make your situation any better whether you attended UConn or some other non-elite law school. I have been practicing for quite a long time and I have a pretty good idea of the situation in Connecticut. Like many other places, law grads are not in high demand. However, the RIGHT students can always succeed.

[ineedacupofcoffee]

As I said previously, I am a UConn Law Grad. I didn't mention that I also went undergrad to the University of Pennsylvania, or that I have now been practicing law for 34 years quite successfully.

A huge number of people in my class DID get into the top law firms, and DID get great jobs. Yes, that was a while ago, but I have no reason to believe that is not still true.

Sir, I'm sorry but I don't believe your experience is representative of situation surrounding today's market. I am well acquainted with UConn Law and know many people graduating/who have RECENTLY graduated. MANY do not have jobs or struggled/are struggling to find something halfway acceptable as employment. That's the reality of the situation now. I also know people who got top grades and ended up with great jobs...but the vast majority of applicants will NOT have top grades.

Congrats to your son for graduating - does he have a job lined up?

I passed up UConn with a full ride for this reason, and I'm happy I did. I'm not saying that UConn isn't a nice school - it is, and I seriously considered it. But, like any other low-ranked school, it's a huge gamble.

Yup. You get it. Plus, I understand the whole "it doesn't matter if you go to a school ranked 56th versus 54th like it would versus going to an ivy", but there IS a difference if one will give you a full ride with very low stip., and the other, nothing. Especially if a person is taking out loans.

[Killingly]

I also realize that for those who do not finish at the top of their class, finding jobs is more challenging. But as I said, if you are in the middle of your class at Boston College, or Boston University, you are no better off than being in the middle of your class at UConn, especially in Connecticut and New York. Like it or not, that is the reality. Also, as I said, if you are not in one of the top 15 or so law schools in the country, i.e., the Ivy League and a few others, then you are delusional if you think that anything except finishing at the very top of your class will make your situation any better whether you attended UConn or some other non-elite law school. I have been practicing for quite a long time and I have a pretty good idea of the situation in Connecticut. Like many other places, law grads are not in high demand. However, the RIGHT students can always succeed.

First of all, congrats again to your son. Like I said, I know many people graduating this year still looking.

And I agree with the above. This isn't a UConn-specific problem...but no one should be satisfied going to ANY school that will give them lukewarm career opportunities for the most part. I ended up going to one of "the top 15 or so law schools" and have median grades. I would not have the job I have now with those same grades from UConn.

I love UConn and am a proud husky (as are many of my family members), but no one should think that they should go to UConn merely based on a desire to live/work in CT.

[Law Man]

I also realize that for those who do not finish at the top of their class, finding jobs is more challenging. But as I said, if you are in the middle of your class at Boston College, or Boston University, you are no better off than being in the middle of your class at UConn, especially in Connecticut and New York. Like it or not, that is the reality. Also, as I said, if you are not in one of the top 15 or so law schools in the country, i.e., the Ivy League and a few others, then you are delusional if you think that anything except finishing at the very top of your class will make your situation any better whether you attended UConn or some other non-elite law school. I have been practicing for quite a long time and I have a pretty good idea of the situation in Connecticut. Like many other places, law grads are not in high demand. However, the RIGHT students can always succeed.

First of all, congrats again to your son. Like I said, I know many people graduating this year still looking.

And I agree with the above. This isn't a UConn-specific problem...but no one should be satisfied going to ANY school that will give them lukewarm career opportunities for the most part. I ended up going to one of "the top 15 or so law schools" and have median grades. I would not have the job I have now with those same grades from UConn.

I love UConn and am a proud husky (as are many of my family members), but no one should think that they should go to UConn merely based on a desire to live/work in CT.

Great! I am glad you found a successful career. May I ask what Law School you went to?

[Law Man]

As I said previously, I am a UConn Law Grad. I didn't mention that I also went undergrad to the University of Pennsylvania, or that I have now been practicing law for 34 years quite successfully.

A huge number of people in my class DID get into the top law firms, and DID get great jobs. Yes, that was a while ago, but I have no reason to believe that is not still true.

Sir, I'm sorry but I don't believe your experience is representative of situation surrounding today's market. I am well acquainted with UConn Law and know many people graduating/who have RECENTLY graduated. MANY do not have jobs or struggled/are struggling to find something halfway acceptable as employment. That's the reality of the situation now. I also know people who got top grades and ended up with great jobs...but the vast majority of applicants will NOT have top grades.

Congrats to your son for graduating - does he have a job lined up?

I passed up UConn with a full ride for this reason, and I'm happy I did. I'm not saying that UConn isn't a nice school - it is, and I seriously considered it. But, like any other low-ranked school, it's a huge gamble.

Yup. You get it. Plus, I understand the whole "it doesn't matter if you go to a school ranked 56th versus 54th like it would versus going to an ivy", but there IS a difference if one will give you a full ride with very low stip., and the other, nothing. Especially if a person is taking out loans.

Agreed.

[SBUalex]

The positivity in this forum is overwhelming!

Its actually making me nervous.

Sorry if my whining --and I can understand how it came off that way; sorry bout that--made you feel that way. I'm glad that we can kind of see both sides of the spectrum on this forum, and, LawMan, I appreciate you posting. As you said, the job market for lawyers has changed dramatically in the time since your time in law school, and the reality of UConn's employment statistics these days is pretty grim: http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/uconn/2013/

The main reason I had been considering UConn Law is that, having spent most of my life in CT, I believed it to be the best place to study law and make connections that would lead to in-state employment. It has been said before, but most of the schools ranked 21-100 (and even beyond that) can be good places to study law if you're hoping to get a job in that area after graduation. That said, there are no cities in Connecticut that rank among America's top 40 law hubs. The Nutmeg State is also on the wrong end of this chart of states with the "Most Law School Grads per Job Opening" http://www.theatlantic.com/business/arc ... ds/276463/

For me, that information combined with my lack of family connections in the legal field (I'm not suggesting that your kids haven't worked hard and done everything they could to secure good jobs, but I can't imagine that having a successful lawyer for a father hurt their chances) makes it a tough sell for me. Now, couple those considerations with the fact that UConn--my only in-state option--would be easily the most expensive school for me to attend, despite being the lowest ranked and worst from an employment standpoint, and there's almost no way I could justify matriculating.

That said, there are people who succeed at UConn, and walk away with good jobs in (what I consider) a great state to live in, but it is a gamble no matter how you frame it. I understand that the same can be said for most law schools outside of the Top 14 or 20, but very few "Top Tier" schools have an employment rate worse than UConn's 41% nine months after graduation.

EDITED for clarity's sake.

[Killingly]

Great! I am glad you found a successful career. May I ask what Law School you went to?

I feel a bit like you're being sarcastic or insincere, perhaps because you're reading my posts as bragging, or something. I want to assure you that's not what I'm trying to do. For the record, if I could do it all over again I wouldn't have even gone to my school at the price I paid.

[Law Man]

Great! I am glad you found a successful career. May I ask what Law School you went to?

I feel a bit like you're being sarcastic or insincere, perhaps because you're reading my posts as bragging, or something. I want to assure you that's not what I'm trying to do. For the record, if I could do it all over again I wouldn't have even gone to my school at the price I paid.

I am not being sarcastic! I am genuinely interested. I am sorry the school you did choose wasn't, in your opinion, "worth the price."

[Law Man]

The positivity in this forum is overwhelming!

Its actually making me nervous.

Sorry if my whining --and I can understand how it came off that way; sorry bout that--made you feel that way. I'm glad that we can kind of see both sides of the spectrum on this forum, and, LawMan, I appreciate you posting. As you said, the job market for lawyers has changed dramatically in the time since your time in law school, and the reality of UConn's employment statistics these days is pretty grim: http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/uconn/2013/

The main reason I had been considering UConn Law is that, having spent most of my life in CT, I believed it to be the best place to study law and make connections that would lead to in-state employment. It has been said before, but most of the schools ranked 21-100 (and even beyond that) can be good places to study law if you're hoping to get a job in that area after graduation. That said, there are no cities in Connecticut that rank among America's top 40 law hubs. The Nutmeg State is also on the wrong end of this chart of states with the "Most Law School Grads per Job Opening" http://www.theatlantic.com/business/arc ... ds/276463/

For me, that information combined with my lack of family connections in the legal field (I'm not suggesting that your kids haven't worked hard and done everything they could to secure good jobs, but I can't imagine that having a successful lawyer for a father hurt their chances) makes it a tough sell for me. Now, couple those considerations with the fact that UConn--my only in-state option--would be easily the most expensive school for me to attend, despite being the lowest ranked and worst from an employment standpoint, and there's almost no way I could justify matriculating.

That said, there are people who succeed at UConn, and walk away with good jobs in (what I consider) a great state to live in, but it is a gamble no matter how you frame it. I understand that the same can be said for most law schools outside of the Top 14 or 20, but very few "Top Tier" schools have an employment rate worse than UConn's 41% nine months after graduation.

EDITED for clarity's sake.

I thank you for posting those statistics. They really are dismal. From what I see, opportunities in virtually all of the states that UConn grads traditionally work in are down dramatically. The states of New York, Connecticut, RI, Mass, VT and NH are all depressed job markets for lawyers. Consequently, job placement from the area law schools are down. Even Harvard is at 86%!

I think you are correct in saying that the job market is worse than it was 34 years ago when I graduated. However, I suppose the good news is that fewer people are now going to law school, and the economy is starting to pick up. Also, good news for those of you going to UConn, my understanding is that UConn is trying very hard to set up to set up internships with local law firms and companies. I think they are aware of the problem, and trying to affirmatively do something about it.

However, let me tell you one very important fact of life in the law biz: one kind of lawyer is always in demand - the rain maker.

One thing you can do is show initiative. If you cannot land something after law school, open your own office. Start by taking things that you cannot screw up, e.g., no fault divorces. Once you take a few, your name will be out there, and you will get more. You will hang around the court house and meet other lawyers. You will build the contacts you don't have now.

I know a lot of people who started that way and did quite well. Many are doing far better than they ever would have done working for someone else.

Not interested in divorce law? I was involved in some divorce cases, and believe me, I steer far away from them. But they pay the bills. Here are some other ideas:

1. Offer to help out small firms on a part-time basis. Small firms have cycles of up and down. So do big firms, but big firms can absorb the cycles better. Small firms frequently need to take on a summer associate or part time help. Not glamorous, but you get your foot in the door.

2. Consider joining the JAG Corps. The Service has need of lawyers, and I can tell you for the Navy, that if you go to sea it will be on a large ship such as a Carrier, and most JAG officers never go to sea, unless they are career officers. The money is decent and you get free room and board.

3. Seriously start your own business. UConn offers entrepreneurial courses on hanging your own shingle. Rent a room in another firm and advertise for the type of clients you want. Frequently, if you rent space, the firm you are renting from will have a lot of expertise that you can dip into for free. Ultimately, working for yourself is far better than working for someone else.

I cannot stress to you how much better it is to try SOMETHING, than to sit around on your butt and wait for someone to offer you a job. In a free market, all the jobs out there are potentially yours. You just have to go get them. Once you have established that you are a rain maker, I doubt you will have any trouble finding a job at someone else's firm, if you still want to.

Let me finish by telling you a saying we had when I was in law school:

The top 10% either go into academics or big firms. In academics they have an easy life and make $60,000 per year
In big firms they work 80 hours per week and make $120,000 until they burn out. 2% make partner.

The middle 60% take jobs in small or middle size firms and start around 40k to 60k.

The bottom 30% cannot get jobs anywhere so they open their own practice and make millions.

The salary figures I give here probably need updating, but you get the idea.

[SBUalex]

I thank you for posting those statistics. They really are dismal. From what I see, opportunities in virtually all of the states that UConn grads traditionally work in are down dramatically. The states of New York, Connecticut, RI, Mass, VT and NH are all depressed job markets for lawyers. Consequently, job placement from the area law schools are down. Even Harvard is at 86%!

I think you are correct in saying that the job market is worse than it was 34 years ago when I graduated. However, I suppose the good news is that fewer people are now going to law school, and the economy is starting to pick up. Also, good news for those of you going to UConn, my understanding is that UConn is trying very hard to set up to set up internships with local law firms and companies. I think they are aware of the problem, and trying to affirmatively do something about it.

However, let me tell you one very important fact of life in the law biz: one kind of lawyer is always in demand - the rain maker.

One thing you can do is show initiative. If you cannot land something after law school, open your own office. Start by taking things that you cannot screw up, e.g., no fault divorces. Once you take a few, your name will be out there, and you will get more. You will hang around the court house and meet other lawyers. You will build the contacts you don't have now.

I know a lot of people who started that way and did quite well. Many are doing far better than they ever would have done working for someone else.

Not interested in divorce law? I was involved in some divorce cases, and believe me, I steer far away from them. But they pay the bills. Here are some other ideas:

1. Offer to help out small firms on a part-time basis. Small firms have cycles of up and down. So do big firms, but big firms can absorb the cycles better. Small firms frequently need to take on a summer associate or part time help. Not glamorous, but you get your foot in the door.

2. Consider joining the JAG Corps. The Service has need of lawyers, and I can tell you for the Navy, that if you go to sea it will be on a large ship such as a Carrier, and most JAG officers never go to sea, unless they are career officers. The money is decent and you get free room and board.

3. Seriously start your own business. UConn offers entrepreneurial courses on hanging your own shingle. Rent a room in another firm and advertise for the type of clients you want. Frequently, if you rent space, the firm you are renting from will have a lot of expertise that you can dip into for free. Ultimately, working for yourself is far better than working for someone else.

I cannot stress to you how much better it is to try SOMETHING, than to sit around on your butt and wait for someone to offer you a job. In a free market, all the jobs out there are potentially yours. You just have to go get them. Once you have established that you are a rain maker, I doubt you will have any trouble finding a job at someone else's firm, if you still want to.

Let me finish by telling you a saying we had when I was in law school:

The top 10% either go into academics or big firms. In academics they have an easy life and make $60,000 per year
In big firms they work 80 hours per week and make $120,000 until they burn out. 2% make partner.

The middle 60% take jobs in small or middle size firms and start around 40k to 60k.

The bottom 30% cannot get jobs anywhere so they open their own practice and make millions.

The salary figures I give here probably need updating, but you get the idea.

Man, that was motivational! I really enjoyed reading it, and to elaborate on a few things you said:

- It's a buyers market right now for law students. Fewer students attending = schools want you more, and need to focus on improving if they are going to remain an attractive or even viable option. Also, less students + more jobs in an improving economy = better odds of succeeding than law students two or three years ago.
- No matter where one receives their J.D., that person's attitude and work ethic are key determinants of their future success.

Personally, I'm not sure if I want to stay in Connecticut. After college I moved west for a while and I loved it out there, and--like I said--I have some better financial offers on the table. Essentially, I was hoping that UConn would really "wow" me, and make my decision of whether or not to stay in-state an easy one. Instead, their admissions process and financial aid offer made it easy for me to decide not to attend , and that was surprising and saddening to me. That's what I was trying to get across with my earlier posts, but that has just been my individual experience. Here is a fact that is universal: If you want to practice law in Connecticut, UConn is the best place to go.

There are Huskies in virtually every big firm in the state, all throughout the judicial and political scenes, and--thanks to the fact that the Storrs campus has become THE most competitive public school in the Northeast--the UConn name means a lot to Nutmeggers. Also, living in the capitol (and sharing your campus with the state's Attorney General) opens us a whole lot of networking possibilities that would not exist even at higher ranked schools around New England. Finally, if you haven't been to the campus yet, you should go. It's really beautiful.

TL;DR - Numbers be damned! UConn is still a good option if you want to work in CT, and you're willing to work hard on the networking side of things to guarantee yourself employment after graduation.

[Law Man]

INTERESTINGLY, I was talking to someone in the UConn Law Administration yesterday, and I told him about the conversations on this board, and particularly about the employment figures in the 2013 graduating class.

He told me that the 2014 figures are in fact much much different.

He said that the new figures (if I remember them correctly, this conversation was at a social event and a lot was going on.) show well over 60% employment after 9 months in law, in jobs that require a JD over 80% over all. He said he would email me a link to his data when it was available to the public.

I told him UConn should get a move on, since negative info was out there, and was influencing UConn's reputation. He agreed.

As soon as I get the precise figures, I will post them here.

Actually, looking at the 2013 figures, they are actually much more positive:

Employment in law firms: 43%

Employment in Business: 23%

Employment in Government 17%

Public Interest: 7%

Academia: 2%

So the total percentage of UConn Law grads in 2013 who were employed after 9 months is actually 92%

http://uconn.lawschoolnumbers.com/#school_employment

[slippa]

thank you for talking with the dean about the issues being discussed on this forum. my daughter & i were never questioning that UConn is a perfectly fine law school, it is just that the admissions departments at other schools are so amazingly nice, welcoming, friendly, helpful, etc. compared to UConn, that they need to improve their personal interaction with applicants.

[Law Man]

thank you for talking with the dean about the issues being discussed on this forum. my daughter & i were never questioning that UConn is a perfectly fine law school, it is just that the admissions departments at other schools are so amazingly nice, welcoming, friendly, helpful, etc. compared to UConn, that they need to improve their personal interaction with applicants.

That subject also came up.

It seems that there was a person in the Admissions Department who left at just the worst possible time. They have been understaffed, since this was a position that cannot be easily filled.

[slippa]

okay, that makes sense and explains why every other admissions department was far more charming and helpful!

[Law Man]

My connection at the law school sent me the following link:

http://www.law.uconn.edu/sites/default/ ... -21-14.pdf


I think this helps explain the employment situation for 2013 grads better than the previous figures that were posted here. The situation is far from what has been depicted here, with only a few people wanting jobs who do not have them.

[SBUalex]

My connection at the law school sent me the following link:

http://www.law.uconn.edu/sites/default/ ... -21-14.pdf


I think this helps explain the employment situation for 2013 grads better than the previous figures that were posted here. The situation is far from what has been depicted here, with only a few people wanting jobs who do not have them.

Many on this forum already know this, but it is crucially important to understand how to properly read and review those numbers (ABA Employment statistics). The most important category to look at is Full Time, Long Time positions that require Bar Passage. 79 out of their 187 graduates had secured such positions within nine months of graduation and that's where the site I had linked to earlier (Law School Transparency) gets their ~40% employment rate from. Sure, there are other employment outcomes, but most are jobs that could just as easily be earned WITHOUT a J.D. or the debt/opportunity cost that comes with it. For example, there are two people on that chart who are employed in "Non-professional positions;" likely waiters, bartenders, etc. So there may only be 7 graduates from the Class of 2013 who are unemployed 9 months after graduation, but there are also only 79 who have received the Full-Time, Long-Term positions that people go to law school for in the first place. That ratio is worse than most of the "Tier 2" law schools (Ranked 50-100) which UConn calls peers, and many of the Tier 3 schools (see Villanova, UNH, etc.) which would offer would-be Huskies a lot more in terms of financial aid.

Law schools regularly point to these statistics as indicators of success because to the un-trained eye they paint a rosy picture. It's when you dig a bit deeper that you see how lackluster those numbers really are.

[Law Man]

Sorry, but I think your interpretation (Law School Transparency) is way too narrow. Why not look at all of the jobs that JD graduates TRADITIONALLY take as opposed to just entering law firms? Not everyone goes to law school with the goal of practicing law. There are plenty of good jobs in business and government that require a JD.

If you read carefully, you will see that 126 out of 187 graduates are employed full-time in professional positions. This certainly sounds like a successful use of a JD to me. Of the remaining 61, only 14 are actively looking for jobs but not fining them, and 7 have taken non-professional jobs, presumably not fining employment where they could make use of their JDs. That would be 21 out of 187 who couldn't find suitable jobs. Some of the others are pursuing higher degrees, have deferred job starting dates, are not looking for jobs, have not reported their status.

21 out of 187 who have failed to find jobs, or have found only part time jobs, is quite a different picture from your table which implies that only 40-something percent found suitable employment. Why wouldn't jobs in business or government be counted, for example? Business frequently pays more than law, and such jobs are not at all inappropriate for those with a JD. If this class is anything like my class, there is probably a large percentage of grads who either have dual degrees such as MBAs and JDs, or Undergraduate degrees in Finance, Accounting or Management who now have JDs. Their career path may not be in the practice of law but is certainly not a "non-job" or "insignificant employment."

I guess the question to ask is why did the table you referred to leave out all of the information that gives you a complete picture of what graduates from each school are doing? Are they deliberately trying to make some schools look bad? In my opinion, more information is always better. Not presenting the whole story gives a biased presentation of what is really going on. And it is frankly disrespectful to those who are looking for information, by assuming that they are unable to handle the complete picture, and are too unsophisticated to interpret the ABA reporting form correctly.

[SBUalex]

I guess the question to ask is why did the table you referred to leave out all of the information that gives you a complete picture of what graduates from each school are doing? Are they deliberately trying to make some schools look bad? In my opinion, more information is always better. Not presenting the whole story gives a biased presentation of what is really going on. And it is frankly disrespectful to those who are looking for information, by assuming that they are unable to handle the complete picture, and are too unsophisticated to interpret the ABA reporting form correctly.

The link I posted has that exact chart--in its entirety--only one tab over from the page I had linked to (it's under ABA Statistics.) I agree that more information is better, and that's why they not only post the entire ABA graph, but prioritize the categories of employment which are of the highest value to law school graduates....and now I sound like a LST pitch man!

[ryanct7]

Under review as of today!

[ryanct7]

Well UConn said no, but my second and third choices each accepted w/ scholarships of over 20k a year each. Your loss, UConn Law. Good luck to the rest of you!

[FirmBiz]

thank you for talking with the dean about the issues being discussed on this forum. my daughter & i were never questioning that UConn is a perfectly fine law school, it is just that the admissions departments at other schools are so amazingly nice, welcoming, friendly, helpful, etc. compared to UConn, that they need to improve their personal interaction with applicants.

This is what turned me off from UCONN, applied since janurary, 2 days after the 15th of april they send me an offer of admission, then start calling me and hunting me down for financial aid info and a bunch of other stuff. Its as if I suddenly became a "priority" after essentially being ignored throughout the whole process.

They seriously need to improve in this area, would have strongly considered them had I not been treated like an afterthought, and then chased after once they felt they needed to.

[slippa]

it's a year later, and just an update to all the ragging i did about UConn admissions last year--my daughter just sent in her deposit for next fall...

[J234]

it's a year later, and just an update to all the ragging i did about UConn admissions last year--my daughter just sent in her deposit for next fall...

I will most likely be attending in the fall as well! My only concern is that UConn is more regional and I may not want to practice just in CT....

[slippa]

from what i've heard, as long as you pass the bar in other states, you can practice wherever you want--good luck!

[J234]

from what i've heard, as long as you pass the bar in other states, you can practice wherever you want--good luck!

Good point. Yah I don't know why I'm being so negative haha thanks best of luck to your daughter too