WUSTL c/o 2016 Applicants (2012-2013) Forum

[alwayssunnyinfl]

[shntn]

(deposits at Cardozo)

lolololol

[DoveBodyWash]

This reminds me of the discussion my friends and I keep having. Do you go to the school that gives you warm fuzzies or the one that may be cutthroat but you graduate with a job?

+1

Pretty sure I'll be having the T14 Sticker vs WUSTL w/ $$ debate fairly soon...Leaning towards the latter but here's my thinking:
(This is assuming I get negligible or no scholly from T14 and that I'll get meaningful scholly from WUSTL)

T14 Sticker
BigLaw: Debt minimizes profit
MidLaw: Barely stay afloat financially
Unemployment: Completely f*cked

WUSTL w/ $$
BigLaw: Maximum profit (Probably less miserable since I'd actually get to keep most of my money)
MidLaw: Not baller but still financially solvent
Unemployment: Inconvenient..discouraging...but could afford to switch professions..not particularly ruinous

If lucky enough to get LRAP-qualifying PI work at either: Relatively okay, probably lower-middle class lifestyle...stuck there until loans are forgiven (or sucking the metaphorical D to ensure I don't get laid off before my loans are forgiven)


Re: warm fuzzies. FWIW, I think I'd ultimately perform better at a school that gave me the warm fuzzies

[shntn]

Cuse on point as always.

[somewhatwayward]

Given these numbers [WUSTL 16% big law and clerkship and Cardozo 14%] and without information about quality of jobs obtained, I think Cardozo makes more sense (although it does not make sense in an absolute sense) because you are getting basically the same placement while competing against a less qualified student body and probably getting more scholarship money since Cardozo will pay for a 165 while WUSTL will probably reject that person, forget a scholarship. The caveat is, as you point out, that if you don't want NYC, Cardozo will definitely be a bad choice. In that case, though, I might look to lower T1 schools with scholarships over WUSTL if the employment figures are similar. It sucks to be trying to best 80-90% of your class when your class is as smart as the classes WUSTL is taking.

The reason Cardozo gets shit, though, is because even though it places 15% into big law + clerkships, besting many higher-ranked schools, it doesn't produce good outcomes for the vast majority of the other students, and it is really, really expensive, partially because of COL in NYC but also because it charges way more tuition than it has business charging. Cardozo may be beating other schools but those other schools are doing so poorly that beating them doesn't mean much. Also, as with WUSTL, other schools that aren't in major metropolitan areas may place some of their class into decent firms that aren't NLJ 250, so their numbers are somewhat deflated.

You can't count on doing better because of the 'quality of the student body'. The difference between a 166 and a 165 on the LSAT when it comes to taking law school exams is meaningless. At both places you'll be competing against very intelligent and motivated people - and you have no way of knowing how you will be at law school exams until you start taking them. Your logic here is very flawed.

LOL you guys are posting so fast that it took me ten minutes to find this.

Anyway you are right that 166 v 165 doesn't mean anything but I think WUSTL and Cardozo have a much bigger gap. The most recent Cardozo stats I could find were c/o 2012 (the 2015 medians thread incorrectly cites the 2012 medians for Cardozo) putting them at 162...WUSTL was either 167 or 168 that year. I know WUSTL has dropped but I'm guessing Cardozo has too. A six pt gap across hundreds of people probably is a noticeable difference.

But you're right that the LSAT is only weakly-correlated so we can't say w certainty that WUSTL students are tougher academic competition. That still leaves the rest of my argument, though: supposing the classes are equally academically-talented, given the fact that AFAWK placement US pretty similar, why not go to Cardozo which will give you a big scholarship for your 165 (unless you want the Midwest...but the poster who originally asked, JayJones, is not tied to the Midwest)? Is WUSTL's 60% placement to Cardozo's 50% placement w the same big law and clerkship chances worth the extra 100K+?

Of course calculus changes if you have substantial $ from WUSTL or want the Midwest.

[DoveBodyWash]

LOL you guys are posting so fast that it took me ten minutes to find this.

Anyway you are right that 166 v 165 doesn't mean anything but I think WUSTL and Cardozo have a much bigger gap. The most recent Cardozo stats I could find were c/o 2012 (the 2015 medians thread incorrectly cites the 2012 medians for Cardozo) putting them at 162...WUSTL was either 167 or 168 that year. I know WUSTL has dropped but I'm guessing Cardozo has too. A six pt gap across hundreds of people probably is a noticeable difference.

But you're right that the LSAT is only weakly-correlated so we can't say w certainty that WUSTL students are tougher academic competition. That still leaves the rest of my argument, though: supposing the classes are equally academically-talented, given the fact that AFAWK placement US pretty similar, why not go to Cardozo which will give you a big scholarship for your 165 (unless you want the Midwest...but the poster who originally asked, JayJones, is not tied to the Midwest)? Is WUSTL's 60% placement to Cardozo's 50% placement w the same big law and clerkship chances worth the extra 100K+?

Of course calculus changes if you have substantial $ from WUSTL or want the Midwest.

The WUSTL sticker vs Dozo w/ $$ debate is essentially the same as the T14 sticker vs WUSTL w/ $ debate. It's an instance of one (supposedly more prestigious school) school versus a less prestigious school that's cheaper.

Personally, if I was in JayJones situation re: desired market and ties, then I'd probably lean towards Dozo as well if the scholly situation ends up being the same as the above hypo. I wouldn't pay an extra 100K to have a better shot at a market I didn't want anyway

[wannabelawstudent]

Yeah but how is WUSTL's international law program?

[shntn]

Yeah but how is WUSTL's international law program?

Legit.

[Randomnumbers]

Yeah but how is WUSTL's international law program?

It's right up there with its international space human rights law.

(Apparently it's pretty decent, so far as 'international law' actually exists.)

[danitt]

I watched a lot of Sex and the City and SJP has inspired me so what I'm looking for is a great equine law programme.

[alwayssunnyinfl]

I watched a lot of Sex and the City and SJP has inspired me so what I'm looking for is a great equine law programme.

I hope this is a reference to her horse face.

[shntn]

I watched a lot of Sex and the City and SJP has inspired me so what I'm looking for is a great equine law programme.

She's not exactly a dime, but I've never gotten the horse thing.

[shntn]

I watched a lot of Sex and the City and SJP has inspired me so what I'm looking for is a great equine law programme.

I hope this is a reference to her horse face.

(courtesy of dproduct)

[andy261]

Yeah but how is WUSTL's international law program?

It's right up there with its international space human rights law.

(Apparently it's pretty decent, so far as 'international law' actually exists.)

Prof. Sadat is pretty big in the international law field, and their joint JD/LL.M options are actually with good partner schools.

[JayJones78]

LOL you guys are posting so fast that it took me ten minutes to find this.

Anyway you are right that 166 v 165 doesn't mean anything but I think WUSTL and Cardozo have a much bigger gap. The most recent Cardozo stats I could find were c/o 2012 (the 2015 medians thread incorrectly cites the 2012 medians for Cardozo) putting them at 162...WUSTL was either 167 or 168 that year. I know WUSTL has dropped but I'm guessing Cardozo has too. A six pt gap across hundreds of people probably is a noticeable difference.

But you're right that the LSAT is only weakly-correlated so we can't say w certainty that WUSTL students are tougher academic competition. That still leaves the rest of my argument, though: supposing the classes are equally academically-talented, given the fact that AFAWK placement US pretty similar, why not go to Cardozo which will give you a big scholarship for your 165 (unless you want the Midwest...but the poster who originally asked, JayJones, is not tied to the Midwest)? Is WUSTL's 60% placement to Cardozo's 50% placement w the same big law and clerkship chances worth the extra 100K+?

Of course calculus changes if you have substantial $ from WUSTL or want the Midwest.

The WUSTL sticker vs Dozo w/ $$ debate is essentially the same as the T14 sticker vs WUSTL w/ $ debate. It's an instance of one (supposedly more prestigious school) school versus a less prestigious school that's cheaper.

Personally, if I was in JayJones situation re: desired market and ties, then I'd probably lean towards Dozo as well if the scholly situation ends up being the same as the above hypo. I wouldn't pay an extra 100K to have a better shot at a market I didn't want anyway

That's the thing. With my lack of ties (other than my PNW ones I dont wish to use)the decision is very hard. I have yet to get accepted at Cardozo (complete since 12/24!!) but I think I have a fair shot to get in. The decision will be either hard or easy, probably not in-between. If they give me enough $ that it will level out the COL in other schools I'm considering it'll be hard. If they offer me little to no money it'll be much easier, especially when looking at COL at schools I already got accepted to. As for WashU, I'd need to get accepted first but I also want to know that if I'll end up wanting NYC real bad the option (meaning a real one) will be there.

[icanbeohyes]

I really like the sociable atmosphere of WUSTL and it is one of the better schools I've gotten into, but for some reason I'm still skeptical about the location. Missouri :/

[shntn]

I really like the sociable atmosphere of WUSTL and it is one of the better schools I've gotten into, but for some reason I'm still skeptical about the location. Missouri :/

The people make the place, as they always say.

[fruitoftheloom]

I really like the sociable atmosphere of WUSTL and it is one of the better schools I've gotten into, but for some reason I'm still skeptical about the location. Missouri :/

Misery isn't that bad.

[icanbeohyes]

I really like the sociable atmosphere of WUSTL and it is one of the better schools I've gotten into, but for some reason I'm still skeptical about the location. Missouri :/

The people make the place, as they always say.

Yeah, true. I guess I'll see how I like it when I go for ASD. I've never been in the midwest before and I'm not sure if I want to commit myself to working there for at least the next 3-6 yrs of my life after law school.

[dougfunny]

I really like the sociable atmosphere of WUSTL and it is one of the better schools I've gotten into, but for some reason I'm still skeptical about the location. Missouri :/

What parts are you skeptical about? Since I am from there, I can try to answer any questions/doubts you might have.

[shntn]

I really like the sociable atmosphere of WUSTL and it is one of the better schools I've gotten into, but for some reason I'm still skeptical about the location. Missouri :/

The people make the place, as they always say.

Yeah, true. I guess I'll see how I like it when I go for ASD. I've never been in the midwest before and I'm not sure if I want to commit myself to working there for at least the next 3-6 yrs of my life after law school.

Yeah, visit and see what you think. True, ASD isn't exactly representative of daily life, but you'll still get a good feel for the place.

[Unoriginalist]

I really like the sociable atmosphere of WUSTL and it is one of the better schools I've gotten into, but for some reason I'm still skeptical about the location. Missouri :/

The people make the place, as they always say.

Yeah, true. I guess I'll see how I like it when I go for ASD. I've never been in the midwest before and I'm not sure if I want to commit myself to working there for at least the next 3-6 yrs of my life after law school.

Yeah, visit and see what you think. True, ASD isn't exactly representative of daily life, but you'll still get a good feel for the place.

I was shocked during my visit at how close everything was. It seemed like I could get anywhere in St. Louis in a matter of 15 minutes, tops (if I didn't get lost). Compared to a lot of cities in the Midwest I've been to, St. Louis seems pretty accessible.

[alwayssunnyinfl]

Also, it's my impression that St Louis is more Illinois than it is Missouri, if that makes any sense.

ETA: Odds that schollies drop on V-Day?

[JayJones78]

Also, it's my impression that St Louis is more Illinois than it is Missouri, if that makes any sense.

ETA: Odds that schollies drop on V-Day?

Do you mean Chicago like IL or Roseanne like IL? (I forgot the town they lived in but prob one of the best shows of all time)

[shntn]

Also, it's my impression that St Louis is more Illinois than it is Missouri, if that makes any sense.

ETA: Odds that schollies drop on V-Day?

xs20 had said late-ish February, tho.