Missouri Class of 2015 Forum

[CPM723]

Do you think that Mizzou's ranking will rise this year after the steps they have taken with career services?

[thelawschoolproject]

Do you think that Mizzou's ranking will rise this year after the steps they have taken with career services?

Eh, not sure. I think they might move up a little. But, it's not just career services that holds them back. If you look at their overall LSAT trend, their medians seem to be slipping back. Not sure if that's a sign of a less competitive applicant pool or their inability to stack schollys so people with higher scores are enticed to live in Columbia.

[beachbum]

Also, had Mizzou's ranking not substantially decreased over the last few years (they went from 76th to 107th in 3 years time) they would have better out-of-state appeal. (Although, their reputation is still better than SLU's.)

It's possible, though I'm not as well-versed in Mizzou's placement outside of St. Louis. I'm skeptical that its ranking - and particularly the changes to that ranking within only a few years - has any bearing on its placement, though. And I still maintain that, if you want to work outside of the immediate region, Mizzou might not be the best decision.

Also, if we're still talking St. Louis, I would definitely debate that Mizzou has a better rep than SLU. If anything, I'd say they're fairly interchangeable (though SLU still has the larger alumni network). If we're talking KC/other parts of Missouri, though, I wouldn't be surprised at all if Mizzou has the better rep.

I wouldn't be surprised if Mizzou moves up in rank (it's current rank seems unusually low for the school), though, again, I'd be very surprised if this has any bearing on employment prospects in the immediate future.

[CPM723]

Out of Mizzou, Marquette, and Loyola-Chicago, which one would provide me the greatest likelihood of mobility?

[beachbum]

Out of Mizzou, Marquette, and Loyola-Chicago, which one would provide me the greatest likelihood of mobility?

I don't wanna be a dick, but that's kind of a false decision, no? All three of these schools are very much limited to their respective regions. I'd say Loyola is probably the weakest, as its target market is oversaturated, and it's pretty low on the pecking order within that market. But really, go to Mizzou if you want Missouri, Marquette if you want Wisconsin (and to not worry about the bar exam), and Loyola Chicago if you want Chicago.

"Mobility" is all relative, though. No school (including HYS) is going to get you a free pass into every market. Higher-ranked schools will give you an easier time with major markets (i.e. NYC, DC, Chi), and an easier time getting back to markets in which you have ties, but you're probably not gonna be able to land employment in, say, Seattle if you've never stepped foot in Seattle.

If you're trying to get to Texas, definitely throw an app to some Texas schools. (I'm not too familiar with Texas, but you might try SMU and Houston).

Edit: Also, dude, your GPA is solid - think about retaking the LSAT. You're gonna have a MUCH easier time (with everything) if you can land a ~167 and attend UT.

[CPM723]

That makes sense. I am from Texas, but do not have a desire to go to any Texas schools other than UT- which I am applying to.

[molazapuku]

Brief disclaimer: most of the following is based on my observations, reading, and conversations with 2 and 3Ls. I have not personally experienced the job market, yet, and career services wont give you the time of day until Nov 1 (which is a pretty universal rule).

Do I feel I will have an equal chance at internships and what not? Equal, I think, is not exactly what I would call is. St. Louis is the largest legal market in the state, and many of the larger firms in the state are there. SLU students are in a better position to network inside that area and I think that is a distinct advantage. But Mizzou is stronger everywhere else in the state, and if you are open to government (ie, unpaid) internships you are in a pretty good position from Mizzou.

I dont expect much trouble finding summer work. PAID summer work...yeah, that will be hard.

The three schools you listed are all regional...none have a large amount of mobility. Mizzou is perhaps the most likely to help you in Texas...but this is relative. You have a better shot at somehow running into a Mizzou alum in Texas than you do one from the other schools....but the difference is something like "slim chance" being better than "no chance". Your ties to Texas are far more important than which of those schools you choose to attend, I think,

[thelawschoolproject]

Your ties to Texas are far more important than which of those schools you choose to attend, I think,

+1 Especially if Loyola, Mizzou, and Marquette are the options.

[CPM723]

Makes sense. Is Mizzou everyone's first choice?

[molazapuku]

Oh...and rankings...

Rankings are way jacked up right now, and Missouri has been really raked over by how things are calculated. So take with a grain of salt. I know there is a lot of talk (and lawsuits) about schools misrepresenting their employment rates...but I honestly dont know how that would push Missouri down the pack. Many of those schools seem to be the 4th tier schools but I could be wrong on that.

Assuming everyone is on the up and up (which simply isnt true) Missouri still gets hurt by the system because of the weight given to jobs at graduation. Mizzou feeds government in this state and you cant get that job until you pass the bar...therefore no job at graduation even though that is a choice. And, as previously discussed, Missouri is in between two big legal markets but sits inside a relatively small one. You have to hustle more, and it takes longer...that is not so much a flaw in the system as much as just the way things are. I would really like to see rankings along the lines of JD-requiring positions after 3 (6?) months...but when you are staring down student loan debt you want a job NOW. So I understand why this is the way it is even if it is easier to game.

Its not JUST the employment numbers, though. The "expenditures per student" rating hurts efficient schools like Mizzou as well. And peer reviews are so arbitrary that I have always wondered about them (I remember a story about judges ranking Penn State very highly despite the fact that they did not HAVE a law school...I imagine rankings are still partly based on "Oh, I recognize them! I saw their football team play on ESPN last night")

And to top all of this off...rankings are basically irrelevant to these schools. WUSTL is best, SLU and Mizzou are roughly peers that feed slightly different markets, and UMKC brings up the rear. For the bottom three...the effects of the rankings are the same if they are 75-77 or 175-177.They only matter to people who worry about competing with schools they were never going to compete with anyway. I wanted to work in St. Louis(but open to other parts of MO), couldn't get into WUSTL (nor afford it if I did), Didnt much like SLUs facility and felt the lower price and more comfortable surroundings of Mizzou made up for the loss of some networking opportunities at SLU. That decision process is the type you should be following and less worry applied to rankings.

Or better yet, knock the crap out of the LSAT and go to WashU. =)

[thelawschoolproject]

Is Mizzou everyone's first choice?

Mizzou is my backup school. I'm aiming for a scholly at WUSTL or admission to a T20. Of course, depending on what my score is when it comes back in the next two weeks, that could all change.

[molazapuku]

Mizzou was my first choice...but I may change my mind in about 6 weeks when finals start. =)

It MIGHT be a little too late to run away and join the circus, though.

[thelawschoolproject]

Mizzou was my first choice...but I may change my mind in about 6 weeks when finals start. =)

It MIGHT be a little too late to run away and join the circus, though.

Since you've been taking classes there, how do you like it? I applied and was accepted in a previous cycle so I attended one of the admitted students days. I sat in on one class and didn't find it a particularly competitive place. Most of the students didn't speak, and honestly it didn't look like they were prepared for that day's lecture. Do you find the school academically rigorous? I've always loved Mizzou, and originally planned to go there just for the in-state tuition and because of the proximity to my family, but my visit was a total turn off. I'm trying to figure out if maybe it was an off day, or if that's a typical experience. Any information you could provide would be most appreciated!

[molazapuku]

May I ask what you sat in on, and if you remember who the Prof was? It is not what I would call competitive, at least in the sense we fear. Sure, there are gunners but they are the exception and are universally seen as silly. Most everyone is really friendly and generally open to helping each other.

Academically rigorous...depends. Sitting in on a class can give you odd perceptions that may or may not be true. The new torts professor, IMO, is fantastic but you had better be prepared cause he is going to dig into every detail and try to tie it altogether. I think that is more what we mean by rigorous, it is great but you have to be really mentally into it. Other profs are really smart, but hard to follow...so you may have been in one of those classes where people had sort of given up on the class and were working with outside materials (at least, that is what my money is on).

But the Socratic thing is generally pretty loose...you wont feel grilled or intimidated. Most allow passes. One of them RARELY calls on anyone. Generally, the view seems to be you are a grown up, not gonna get wrapped up in forcing you to pay attention or being strict about attendance. If you have an emergency, Deans and Profs are friendly and understanding.

[thelawschoolproject]

That seems to be overall what I was expecting.

As for the class I sat in on it was a Criminal Law lecture on affirmative defenses. I don't remember the prof, though. It was spring 2010. (Although, that probably doesn't help.)

Thanks for your feedback!

[molazapuku]

Ok, can't speak for Criminal law...that's a second semester class. I haven't had much in the way of interaction with any of those Profs so cant even venture a guess (and I think some of them are new, so it may have changed since you sat in).

[Ford Prefect]

That seems to be overall what I was expecting.

As for the class I sat in on it was a Criminal Law lecture on affirmative defenses. I don't remember the prof, though. It was spring 2010. (Although, that probably doesn't help.)

Thanks for your feedback!

It was probably Prof. Litton. I sat in on his class last spring also. Admissions is pretty particular about which professors' classes they send prospective students to sit in on.

[molazapuku]

That seems to be overall what I was expecting.

As for the class I sat in on it was a Criminal Law lecture on affirmative defenses. I don't remember the prof, though. It was spring 2010. (Although, that probably doesn't help.)

Thanks for your feedback!

It was probably Prof. Litton. I sat in on his class last spring also. Admissions is pretty particular about which professors' classes they send prospective students to sit in on.

I was thinking the same thing. My class actually got evicted from our normal room so they could bring visiting applicants into the big room. I guess they didnt want our professor scaring them away...

[Ford Prefect]

That seems to be overall what I was expecting.

As for the class I sat in on it was a Criminal Law lecture on affirmative defenses. I don't remember the prof, though. It was spring 2010. (Although, that probably doesn't help.)

Thanks for your feedback!

It was probably Prof. Litton. I sat in on his class last spring also. Admissions is pretty particular about which professors' classes they send prospective students to sit in on.

I was thinking the same thing. My class actually got evicted from our normal room so they could bring visiting applicants into the big room. I guess they didnt want our professor scaring them away...

Then we are, in fact, in the same class.

[CPM723]

Anybody see the Mizzou game today? What a great finish!

[molazapuku]

Yup...pretty great weekend to be in this region. =)

I still have zero faith in the Rams...

[CPM723]

Yeah, I wouldn't start believing in them just yet. Are law students able to get tickets to the games/ Are they expensive?

[molazapuku]

I assume you mean Mizzou sports (as opposed to the Cardinals and Rams). And the answer to that is you can absolutely get tickets. There are a couple of different options for student tickets, none of which are what I would call terribly expensive. Football-only season tickets for student seating (fairly close to field, but toward the endzone) were something like $150. A ticket package to the same football section + 4 basketball games was like $240.

The other sports, I believe, are free with a student ID. Near as I can tell Football and Basketball charge students and everything else is an "Olympic sport" and is free. I believe that includes Baseball (a big deal for those of us from St. Louis) but I am not 100% sure. The girls volleyball team seems to have a pretty big following as well. Not sure at all about soccer...but again, I believe free.

[CPM723]

I assume you mean Mizzou sports (as opposed to the Cardinals and Rams). And the answer to that is you can absolutely get tickets. There are a couple of different options for student tickets, none of which are what I would call terribly expensive. Football-only season tickets for student seating (fairly close to field, but toward the endzone) were something like $150. A ticket package to the same football section + 4 basketball games was like $240.

The other sports, I believe, are free with a student ID. Near as I can tell Football and Basketball charge students and everything else is an "Olympic sport" and is free. I believe that includes Baseball (a big deal for those of us from St. Louis) but I am not 100% sure. The girls volleyball team seems to have a pretty big following as well. Not sure at all about soccer...but again, I believe free.

Would we have time as students to go to the games?

[molazapuku]

We don't have any first semester grades ...so take this with a grain of salt as it is only my opinion and observation with no metrics to back it up.

You are talking 6 Saturday afternoons, half of which occur before you start to feel remotely stressed (read: when your first midterm makes you freak out about your study habits and finals come into distant view and when your first truly graded memo is assigned). This is not a catastrophic loss of productivity. And I am in the camp that one should cultivate SOME kind of life outside the law building or else it will drive you mad. There HAS to be a point of diminishing returns on your studies. Knocking off to watch a little football, having a baseball game on while you read the casebook...these things will NOT kill you. I do not feel behind my classmates in any sense and I have certainly not spent every waking moment studying the law. I will post at least SOME guidance if my grades reflected that (it will be somewhat generalized...I do have classmates on this board and I don't think it is too hard to connect the dots).

Now, if you choose to go to every single law school event thrown by every single student associate AND go to the football games...you may feel a bit more stressed. I see some people that seem to feel compelled to go to everything, I feel that just being a student this first semester and having some activities to keep yourself sane is enough. Then again I worry less about my resume than other folks (non-trad with work experience).

As for basketball...I dunno. I am not a basketball guy and didn't buy the tickets. Maybe next year. But you get 4 tickets and essentially pick your package (as I understood it) so it could be games 1-4, or games 5-8, etc. Seems like you could avoid the truly stressful points fairly easily.