IOWA 2012 Forum

[shredderrrrrr]

You're going to have a rough time convincing future employers that you can bring in business.

I can't bring in business because I stay at home with my girlfriend during the weekends instead of going out to the bars? Huh? When I reference being socially awkward that is in regards to the college bar scene.

Go to a different school?

In all seriousness though... There are people who never go out in our class. They are also the ones that look most lonely around the law school building. There are also people that don't love to go out, but do so once in a while (especially at the beginning) to meet people in a social setting. There are a handful of people in our class that don't drink and still go to the bar. It's cheap (most bars have no cover except home games) and it really isn't the animal house atmosphere that you may imagine. Especially with bars like TCB (pool hall), Joe's (more grad students), and Blue Moose/The Mill (live music), you can find a place that fits your personality.

Then, of course, there's those of us that show up to a 10:30am class 10 minutes late wearing a ball cap and sunglasses. But check in with me when grades come out before we decide for sure how bad that does for me.

Social skills are going to be more useful for getting a job than for getting good grades. Yeah, you may get an outline, or a study group, or yadda yadda, but it's just as possible to get good grades without any help from anyone else. A job, on the other hand, is close to IMPOSSIBLE to get if you don't know how to be social. And beyond that... Getting promoted in a legal environment will have a lot to do with your social skills, which probably will include going to bars with your coworkers/superiors, even if you don't drink.

As far as interviewing goes, that is another story. I can be social and interact with employers and coworkers. Unless OCI's are held at 1 AM in a bar, they shouldn't be a problem. In fact, I'm great at interacting with others in an an academic or professional setting. It is just things like parties and bars that I have never felt comfortable in or been a big fan of. Your point about getting promoted once in a job, however, is a very good point. I don't see my decision not to go to bars as negatively impacting my job search, but I could see it being an issue once in a job. I'll have to work on that. Maybe Iowa will be the place to do it!

[shredderrrrrr]

I just thought of this: Gabe's. It's one of the best live music venues in the country. Shred can go there.

Unfortunately, they don't get near as good of music as they used to. I used to go there frequently (mostly when it was the Picador), but now all the good music goes to the Blue Moose. I heard the booking agent from Gabes now works at Blue Moose.

[Rammstein]

If it's any indication, I have never drank and I have never gone out to a bar in my 4 years of college (other than for music).

Again, good luck bringing in business.

[Opie]

I just thought of this: Gabe's. It's one of the best live music venues in the country. Shred can go there.

Unfortunately, they don't get near as good of music as they used to. I used to go there frequently (mostly when it was the Picador), but now all the good music goes to the Blue Moose. I heard the booking agent from Gabes now works at Blue Moose.

I hadn't heard that. Good to know. I'm into more low-key partying, you can hang out with me. If there is dancing involved at a place, I'm usually nit going there. If they serve anything that they call a martini that has anything but vodka, gin, and vermouth (and maybe a garnish), I'm out too.

[shredderrrrrr]

I hadn't heard that. Good to know. I'm into more low-key partying, you can hang out with me. If there is dancing involved at a place, I'm usually nit going there. If they serve anything that they call a martini that has anything but vodka, gin, and vermouth (and maybe a garnish), I'm out too.

Haha you sound like someone I could go out with. I probably have an unfair view of bars growing up in Iowa City and constantly having 19 year old girls throwing up on my front lawn.

Again, good luck bringing in business.

Are you serious? Do you honestly think the amount one drinks is directly proportional to the amount of business they can bring in? And do you honestly think that going to bars is the only way to know people and subsequently bring in business? Get real man.

[typ3]

I hadn't heard that. Good to know. I'm into more low-key partying, you can hang out with me. If there is dancing involved at a place, I'm usually nit going there. If they serve anything that they call a martini that has anything but vodka, gin, and vermouth (and maybe a garnish), I'm out too.

Haha you sound like someone I could go out with. I probably have an unfair view of bars growing up in Iowa City and constantly having 19 year old girls throwing up on my front lawn.

Again, good luck bringing in business.

Are you serious? Do you honestly think the amount one drinks is directly proportional to the amount of business they can bring in? And do you honestly think that going to bars is the only way to know people and subsequently bring in business? Get real man.

Not exactly far off. The business / professional associations / chamber of commerce associations in the cities I've worked usually hold their events at bars. The same for a lot of state bar programs. Not saying it's impossible, but when you get into the private practice world you will more likely than not be expected to network as a lowly associate on top of being enslaved to the firm 70+ hours a week. If you go to a larger firm they definitely have firm events and functions you'll be expected to be at. Except they will be at more upscale venues than your lowlie townie or undergrad bar. lol

[Rammstein]

Are you serious? Do you honestly think the amount one drinks is directly proportional to the amount of business they can bring in? And do you honestly think that going to bars is the only way to know people and subsequently bring in business? Get real man.

Yes. I am quite serious.

You sound like an awkward introvert. You need to be comfortable, or at least appear comfortable in settings like bars or firm gatherings. Work on this in law school. It will pay dividends later.

[Flappy Scribbleneck]

Are you serious? Do you honestly think the amount one drinks is directly proportional to the amount of business they can bring in? And do you honestly think that going to bars is the only way to know people and subsequently bring in business? Get real man.

Yes. I am quite serious.

You sound like an awkward introvert. You need to be comfortable, or at least appear comfortable in settings like bars or firm gatherings. Work on this in law school. It will pay dividends later.

If appearing comfortable then successful? I think you have the necessary and sufficient reversed!

[Rammstein]

Are you serious? Do you honestly think the amount one drinks is directly proportional to the amount of business they can bring in? And do you honestly think that going to bars is the only way to know people and subsequently bring in business? Get real man.

Yes. I am quite serious.

You sound like an awkward introvert. You need to be comfortable, or at least appear comfortable in settings like bars or firm gatherings. Work on this in law school. It will pay dividends later.

If appearing comfortable then successful? I think you have the necessary and sufficient reversed!

Jesus Christ. Good luck to you too.

When you're not a piss-pants 0L you will understand what I'm talking about. In the meantime, keep working on your MW3 skills, n00bs.

[sebastian0622]

Are you serious? Do you honestly think the amount one drinks is directly proportional to the amount of business they can bring in?

Um yeah, pretty much. It won't be an Iowa City bar at 1 a.m., but it could be the country club bar at 6 p.m. or the bar at a client's company Christmas party or the bar in a Marriott while you're traveling to meet a client face-to-face, but yeah, bars are a huge part of business. And, for better or worse, so is drinking. Clients are made really awkward if you don't have a drink or two with them. Again, not saying this is right or good or fair, but it's the truth.

[sebastian0622]

Serious question. What about kids that don't really go out? My socially awkward nature combined with my hatred for bars means I'm pretty bad at meeting others. I've always known this would hurt my networking opportunities, but how bad would it be if a student didn't ever go out drinking? I'd much rather spend my weekend with my girlfriend playing Modern Warfare 3. If it's any indication, I have never drank and I have never gone out to a bar in my 4 years of college (other than for music). The idea of spending my night paying to get into loud rooms full of drunk people sounds miserable.

Oh yeah, and a good bar isn't "paying to get into loud rooms full of drunk people." Saying that just makes you sound kind of ... intolerant. A good bar is more like not paying cover to get into a room full of buzzed people with the music played at a reasonable volume.

--ImageRemoved--

[chrisbru]

Overall response to the last page or so:

Let's all be nice here. There are different kinds of people with different kinds of personalities and backgrounds, and all have their place in the world. That being said, being social, going to bars, and (yes, really) actually drinking have been proven to go hand-in-hand with being successful in business, especially the legal field. Sure, that may be sufficient but not necessary, but feel free to find evidence that indicates that socially inept non-drinkers are more successful than the reverse. This may be indicative of the type of personality that goes with these behaviors, but the result is the same. Get out, have a drink or two, and give it a shot. You may end up liking it.

TL;dr:
1) Be social
2) Go to bar
3) Have a (responsible) amount of alcohol
4) ???
5) Profit

Just don't pull any crap like making people wander around for weeks because they forgot to say they wanted to search for a false bottom on a treasure chest. That stuff is infuriating.

ITT: We all out ourselves as shameless nerds.

Speak for yourself. I have no idea what y'all are talking about. Though it's hard to focus when I'm trying to play Final Fantasy XIII.

When you're not a piss-pants 0L you will understand what I'm talking about. In the meantime, keep working on your MW3 skills, n00bs.

You're not helping for being a gigantic dick. I agree with your points, but explain the best you can in a constructive way, and they will either listen to your or ignore it and figure it out the hard way later.

I just thought of this: Gabe's. It's one of the best live music venues in the country. Shred can go there.

It's hit or miss these days. They are bringing in a lot more electronic music (dubstep, house, etc.) which I really like, but not everyone does. Blue Moose brings the bigger touring bands lately.

If it's any indication, I have never drank and I have never gone out to a bar in my 4 years of college (other than for music).

Again, good luck bringing in business.

I don't think that's DEFINITELY going to be a problem, but could be. If you don't mind me asking... How do you know how much you'd hate it if you've never done it other than for music? Pre-concieved notions?

I hadn't heard that. Good to know. I'm into more low-key partying, you can hang out with me. If there is dancing involved at a place, I'm usually nit going there. If they serve anything that they call a martini that has anything but vodka, gin, and vermouth (and maybe a garnish), I'm out too.

Let's not get rash, Opie. Martinis are evolving, and it has nothing to say about the bar that serves them. Girls especially love the fruity vodka martinis. It benefits bars quite a bit to have an expanded martini menu. I'd actually think you'd be hard pressed to find a bar that ONLY serves traditional gin or vodka martinis.

Haha you sound like someone I could go out with. I probably have an unfair view of bars growing up in Iowa City and constantly having 19 year old girls throwing up on my front lawn.

Well, bars are 21 and up now. And those 19 year old girls were more likely drinking in a fraternity house or dorm than in a bar anyway.

[typ3]

Hey, stop the hate on those 19 year old undergrads. I guarantee Iowa City's 19 year old drunk girls can rival those of any other city in the Midwest. Just remember, those girls aren't trash-- trash gets picked up.

[patrickj11288]

Jesus there are kids on this forum that have never had a sip of alcohol in their lives? If its for religious reasons its understandable, but I was in a huge social fraternity at Purdue for four years and let me tell you I wouldnt give back those experiences for anything. I've met a lot of cool people, that I wouldnt have known otherwise, and will be friends with for the rest of my life as a direct result of drinking at bars and parties. If you havent I would give it a shot. I'm saying this because I'm sure the atmosphere at Iowa is really similar to Purdue's.

[shredderrrrrr]

Rammstein: I suppose I should listen to you. It appears you know a lot about not getting a job. Who better to trust about being successful than a kid who has been rejected 60 or so times and is "reeking desperation"?

Sebastian: Once again, I was referring to success in law school, not my career. I believe it was chrisbru that pointed out the importance of networking in a firm and I agreed he was right. So your point about needing to be comfortable in bars is right on. The part about drinking still seems weak though. A client will feel uncomfortable if their lawyer isn't drinking with them? What about non-drinkers feeling uncomfortable having drinkers drink in front of them? I really don't see it being a major problem. I can see being ostracized by coworkers because you don't drink (trust me, I've dealt with that for years), but I think it's a stretch to say actual drinking will result in more business. Are you telling me that a guy socializing in a bar with water will bring in less business than the same guy socializing in a bar with alcohol?

And I'm not intolerant or like the stapler guy in regards to bars. I guess without being a connoisseur of bars, I can't be a fair judge, but from my limited experience, Iowa City had a lot of bars as I defined. Bars as you defined sound much better, but I don't think you can deny the existence of bars as I defined. Those are the ones I would very much like to avoid.

Chrisbru: I appreciate your summary and I agree that I should force myself to go out to bars, especially after law school. I'll still skip the drinking part (I have personal reasons) largely because I don't see as much of a need to actually drink as much as I do being social.

I didn't mean to imply when I said that I've never gone out to a bar that I've never been in a bar. I just meant that I've never done the typical bar-hopping on a Friday night thing. In Iowa City, I've been to the Union, Brothers, Summit, Blue Moose, and Gabes. I've been in bars for various reasons and am not just making assumptions. Like I said, I'm no connoisseur, but I've been to bars before. Sorry for not making that clear.

And how well is the 21 and up ordinance working these days? Back when I lived in Iowa City, lots of my girlfriends would go out to the bars (I was in high school). For the most part, keeping minors out of bars was not a priority. I hope the ordinance is working.

[shredderrrrrr]

Jesus there are kids on this forum that have never had a sip of alcohol in their lives? If its for religious reasons its understandable, but I was in a huge social fraternity at Purdue for four years and let me tell you I wouldnt give back those experiences for anything. I've met a lot of cool people, that I wouldnt have known otherwise, and will be friends with for the rest of my life as a direct result of drinking at bars and parties. If you havent I would give it a shot. I'm saying this because I'm sure the atmosphere at Iowa is really similar to Purdue's.

Man, why are people so offended that some people don't have a desire to drink? I have my reasons (lol, not religious at all though) but lots of it comes down to not wanting to. I also have never drank pop for over 10 years. People just have different desires.

Your argument for why someone should drink: I have had amazing experiences and met great people that I couldn't have if I didn't drink. If you want to have amazing experiences and meet great people, therefore, you should drink.

This argument makes sense, but I feel the same way about not drinking. Not drinking has allowed me to experience amazing things and meet great people that I wouldn't have had I drank. I met my girlfriend of 6 years largely as a result of my not drinking and I have had an amazing life. I feel like people assume I am a introverted hermit because I don't party or drink at bars. Believe it or not, kids can have fun without drinking. I applaud you for having such great experiences at Purdue as a result of drinking, but I have had equally great experiences without alcohol.

Overall, I just fail to see the point of drinking in my case. You say that I could meet people and experience cool things, but I already am content with what I have. Why bother drinking for that reason when I already know amazing people and experience great things? If my life sucked, your advice would be beneficial. For non-drinkers who actually love their life, however, it doesn't really mean much.

[nickjive]

I also have never drank pop for over 10 years.

How do you play MW3 without Mountain Dew? They pretty much go hand in hand.

[shredderrrrrr]

I also have never drank pop for over 10 years.

How do you play MW3 without Mountain Dew? They pretty much go hand in hand.

Doritos!!!

[Opie]

I also have never drank pop for over 10 years.

How do you play MW3 without Mountain Dew? They pretty much go hand in hand.

Mountain Dew is for noobs. Real men snort NoDoz.

[shredderrrrrr]

Any word yet on any schools Opie?

I got accepted to Marquette! No intention of going there, but it's good to at least have an accept under the belt.

[Opie]

Any word yet on any schools Opie?

I got accepted to Marquette! No intention of going there, but it's good to at least have an accept under the belt.

Congrats! Nothing yet. I submitted somewhat late though.

[typ3]

If you don't drink then go and drink a non alcoholic beer or mocktail. Still, if you feel socially awkward in a bar / mixer setting don't join a professional or business association because that's predominantly what you'll be doing.

[typ3]

Jesus there are kids on this forum that have never had a sip of alcohol in their lives? If its for religious reasons its understandable, but I was in a huge social fraternity at Purdue for four years and let me tell you I wouldnt give back those experiences for anything. I've met a lot of cool people, that I wouldnt have known otherwise, and will be friends with for the rest of my life as a direct result of drinking at bars and parties. If you havent I would give it a shot. I'm saying this because I'm sure the atmosphere at Iowa is really similar to Purdue's.

Man, why are people so offended that some people don't have a desire to drink? I have my reasons (lol, not religious at all though) but lots of it comes down to not wanting to. I also have never drank pop for over 10 years. People just have different desires.

Your argument for why someone should drink: I have had amazing experiences and met great people that I couldn't have if I didn't drink. If you want to have amazing experiences and meet great people, therefore, you should drink.

This argument makes sense, but I feel the same way about not drinking. Not drinking has allowed me to experience amazing things and meet great people that I wouldn't have had I drank. I met my girlfriend of 6 years largely as a result of my not drinking and I have had an amazing life. I feel like people assume I am a introverted hermit because I don't party or drink at bars. Believe it or not, kids can have fun without drinking. I applaud you for having such great experiences at Purdue as a result of drinking, but I have had equally great experiences without alcohol.

Overall, I just fail to see the point of drinking in my case. You say that I could meet people and experience cool things, but I already am content with what I have. Why bother drinking for that reason when I already know amazing people and experience great things? If my life sucked, your advice would be beneficial. For non-drinkers who actually love their life, however, it doesn't really mean much.

I think the essence of everyone's arguments have been lost in the shuffle.

It was said you don't like to go out to bars and you don't drink.

The problem is you are relating bars / mixers solely with drinking. You need to get out and do things with people to network, plain and simple.

Go to the bar, law schools functions, etc. don't drink alcohol but meet your classmates and your future fellow peers. To completely ignore your classmates and your surroundings for three years is very short sighted. Your classmates will be your peers in the profession and they will be great references and referrals for work. This goes the same for going to mixers with other professional students (dental / medical / etc.) If you ever plan on doing personal injury I would sure hope you're making friends with as many doctors as possible who can refer those in worker's comp / car accidents to you.


I can dig up the ABA's research study from this last year, but in ranking how people find their lawyers it goes something like this:

Word of mouth / reference from a trusted source or family member >>>>>>>>> yellow pages >>> internet search

[shredderrrrrr]

To completely ignore your classmates and your surroundings for three years is very short sighted.

Come on, I never said anything like that!

Have you read all my comments? I have said that going to bars is indeed beneficial for success. I believe it. I have submitted to that advice and have no arguments. My only differing opinion is in regards to actually drinking alcohol while at the bars.

[40_Minus_1]

To completely ignore your classmates and your surroundings for three years is very short sighted.

Come on, I never said anything like that!

Have you read all my comments? I have said that going to bars is indeed beneficial for success. I believe it. I have submitted to that advice and have no arguments. My only differing opinion is in regards to actually drinking alcohol while at the bars.

This is all kind of a moot point, anyway. By the end of your first year you're going to have a serious drinking problem, just like everyone else.