Should I Stay or Should I Go?: Cleveland-Marshall Forum

[JDizzle]

Hi all. For the past few months I've planned on attending Cleveland-Marshall College of Law, but I'm beginning the think I'm short-changing myself and am having second thoughts.

Necessary Info:
- 159 LSAT, 3.54 GPA (look LSAT once, averaged between 165-167 on practice tests)
- Interested in litigation and PI work, and I don't mind living and working in Cleveland in the years following graduation from LS.
- $10,000 per year merit scholarship
- Total money borrowed per year: $27,264 (remainder of tuition + COL).
- Total debt load at graduation: $81,792 + interest ($20,292 in Grad PLUS)
- Don't have my heart set on Big Law, as I'd much rather get real courtroom experience early on in my career.

I feel as though I'd be better served to take this year off, get a real job, and retake the LSAT and hope to apply next cycle to some T30 schools. However, securing meaningful employment has proven difficult and I'm questioning whether or not I'll be able to find something suitable for this next year away from school. This makes me think I should just shut-up and get started with LS (I can always transfer, right?).

Could I graduate from C-M and have a reasonable shot at securing employment that would allow me to pay back my debt come 2013?

Please advise, thanks.

[stintez]

Bottom line retake the LSAT. Your young you'll figure out something to make money on your year off.

[OliverWendellHomie]

My advice is to wait til next year. Sure, some grads from CSU make it into the big law firms in Cleveland (e.g. Jones Day, Baker Hostetler), but those are the rare exceptions. Even if you don't want Biglaw, as you indicated, small and midsized firms in Cleveland will be very competitive to get your foot in the door. After all, you have Case Western just down the road, and OSU just a couple of hours away. I would not bank on transferring because the fact is, there are plenty of people going to CSU this fall that have their mind set on doing well enough to transfer out, but only a few will be able to (the ABA has stats about the number of transfers in and out of each school). Do yourself a favor - work for a year, retake the LSAT, and see what your prospects are with your better LSAT score.

[AVBucks4239]

I am in the exact same boat as you. I have been accepted into Capital and Cleveland Marshall, deferred by OSU, and still waitlisted at Case. The only way I am going to attend law school in fall 2010 is if I get into Case.

As for my numbers, I am a 158 and 3.63. Those are extremely competitive numbers for Case. In fact, according to LSN, nobody has ever been denied with those numbers (knock on wood). The only reason I am waitlisted at Case and not already in is because I turned in my application so late.

My bottom line was this--Capital and Cleveland Marshall really limit my career opportunities in Columbus and Cleveland, which is where I would like to practice. Firms in Cleveland are going to take Case over CM and firms in Columbus are going to take an OSU grad over Capital.

My dad chose to go to a lesser law school in Ohio and was forced to work long hours and not make very good money for quite a while. I think he was a lawyer for over fifteen years before he cracked the 6 figure mark. I know the legal environment was different in the early 80's, but he knows a lot of young lawyers now that are in the same boat he was 25 years ago.

And just to add, transferring is way harder than you think. Almost everybody at Capital and Cleveland State are looking to transfer to either Case or OSU. The competitiveness for A's is extremely high, despite the relative ease of getting into each respective school.

If I don't get into Case, my plan is one of two things: get a "real" job from one of my undergrad degrees; or, more likely, get a decent-paying blue-collar job and volunteer 20+ hours per week. Not only do schools love that stuff, but I will be able to save up money and have a really good chance of getting into a better school.

Best of luck with your decision.

[JDizzle]

I am in the exact same boat as you. I have been accepted into Capital and Cleveland Marshall, deferred by OSU, and still waitlisted at Case. The only way I am going to attend law school in fall 2010 is if I get into Case.

As for my numbers, I am a 158 and 3.63. Those are extremely competitive numbers for Case. In fact, according to LSN, nobody has ever been denied with those numbers (knock on wood). The only reason I am waitlisted at Case and not already in is because I turned in my application so late.

Bummer on the late application, friend. I was accepted to Case and received a $13,000 per year scholarship but elected not to attend because my debt load would still have been staggering ($130,000ish at graduation). Waitlisted and consequently withdrew from OSU. Hopefully a seat will open for you at Case!

I've heard that firms in Cleveland are just as willing to hire top C-M grads as they are top Case grads, largely due to the sizable C-M alumni presence in Cleveland. Perhaps someone can corroborate this?

I understand the difficulties associated with transferring, especially from a school like C-M, but I'm fortunate enough to have the senior partner at a local law firm willing to tutor me privately throughout the remainder of the summer and through my first year. He is also a retired law professor (from Case) and all but assured me I would be at the top of my class with his tutelage. If I were to transfer I would probably aim for Notre Dame.

Thank you all very much for the advice thus far.

[AVBucks4239]

Bummer on the late application, friend. I was accepted to Case and received a $13,000 per year scholarship but elected not to attend because my debt load would still have been staggering ($130,000ish at graduation). Waitlisted and consequently withdrew from OSU. Hopefully a seat will open for you at Case!

I've heard that firms in Cleveland are just as willing to hire top C-M grads as they are top Case grads, largely due to the sizable C-M alumni presence in Cleveland. Perhaps someone can corroborate this?

I understand the difficulties associated with transferring, especially from a school like C-M, but I'm fortunate enough to have the senior partner at a local law firm willing to tutor me privately throughout the remainder of the summer and through my first year. He is also a retired law professor (from Case) and all but assured me I would be at the top of my class with his tutelage. If I were to transfer I would probably aim for Notre Dame.

Thank you all very much for the advice thus far.

If debt is your big concern AND you want to make good money coming out of law school, why not retake the LSAT and try to boost your application in an attempt to get more money?

First, Case is very well known for throwing around money left and right. If you do earn a score in your PT range, Case will give you AT LEAST a half scholarship and I would assume more than that.

Second, you would be able to work over the next 13 months and save up money for school.

Third, I think you are overestimating the end of school debt. According to my Princeton Review "Best 170 Law Schools" book, the average debt at the end of a CWRU legal education is $74,000.

[JDizzle]

If debt is your big concern AND you want to make good money coming out of law school, why not retake the LSAT and try to boost your application in an attempt to get more money?

That's one option .

Debt is a big concern. Especially if I were to attend a TTT or TT and graduate with near (or over) six-figures in loans.

First, Case is very well known for throwing around money left and right. If you do earn a score in your PT range, Case will give you AT LEAST a half scholarship and I would assume more than that.

I would think that with a 166/7 and a 3.54 that I could get a full-tuition scholarship from Case. However, I would be looking to attend a higher-ranked school than Case with that LSAT score.

Second, you would be able to work over the next 13 months and save up money for school.

Assuming I could find the kind of job that would allow me money to save in addition to money to live.

Third, I think you are overestimating the end of school debt. According to my Princeton Review "Best 170 Law Schools" book, the average debt at the end of a CWRU legal education is $74,000.

My calculations went something like this:

$40,560 (tuition+activities fee) - $13,000 (scholarship) + $1550 (books) + $16,785 (COL) = $45,895 per year. $45,895 x 3 = $137,685. I guess I underestimated .

[Grizz]

I didn't even have to read the paragraph fully, only look at your LSAT to tell you that retaking is your best bet.

[lawschoollll]

Do not attend this institution. Retake the Law School Admission Test.

[mpj_3050]

I am in the exact same boat as you. I have been accepted into Capital and Cleveland Marshall, deferred by OSU, and still waitlisted at Case. The only way I am going to attend law school in fall 2010 is if I get into Case.

As for my numbers, I am a 158 and 3.63. Those are extremely competitive numbers for Case. In fact, according to LSN, nobody has ever been denied with those numbers (knock on wood). The only reason I am waitlisted at Case and not already in is because I turned in my application so late.

Bummer on the late application, friend. I was accepted to Case and received a $13,000 per year scholarship but elected not to attend because my debt load would still have been staggering ($130,000ish at graduation). Waitlisted and consequently withdrew from OSU. Hopefully a seat will open for you at Case!

I've heard that firms in Cleveland are just as willing to hire top C-M grads as they are top Case grads, largely due to the sizable C-M alumni presence in Cleveland. Perhaps someone can corroborate this?

I understand the difficulties associated with transferring, especially from a school like C-M, but I'm fortunate enough to have the senior partner at a local law firm willing to tutor me privately throughout the remainder of the summer and through my first year. He is also a retired law professor (from Case) and all but assured me I would be at the top of my class with his tutelage. If I were to transfer I would probably aim for Notre Dame.

Thank you all very much for the advice thus far.

You 2 have similar numbers to mine 3.54 and 160, 160. I believe it was AvBucks who said there was the proctor mistake at the Columbus site which messed me up too. Well, I am not going to retake so I am applying to Case, Cincy, Kentucky, Pitt, Cleveland State, and Penn State. I am looking for public service loan forgiveness law or non-law 10 years. I am hoping to take debt into the long 35-40 year career consideration. If you are applying again maybe Cincy or Kentucky would be good choices. Kentucky gives a number of non-resident tuition reduction scholarships and they are tops in the state. I think that the transfer advice is solid - I would assume that it is very difficult. If you retake don't mess up like me and average high 160's and get another 160. Also, JDizzle, what are the stipulations on the Cleveland Marshall scholarship?

[JDizzle]

Do not attend this institution. Retake the Law School Admission Test.

I trust your advice is sound, but why? Specifics, please.

Also, JDizzle, what are the stipulations on the Cleveland Marshall scholarship?

Scholarship is renewable provided I maintain a 3.2 GPA.

[interalia]

The fact that you are already having second thoughts about taking more than 80K in loans to attend a poor law school shows that you realize it is a terrible idea.

A 3.5x is not a bad GPA at all. Read pithypike´s LSAT program... raise your score (or at least try)...profit.

[lawschoollll]

Do not attend this institution. Retake the Law School Admission Test.

I trust your advice is sound, but why? Specifics, please.

Because this is a bad law school. It will leave you in debt and it (more than likely) will not grant you entrance into an already foundering legal field. Please do some research.

[snowpeach06]

C-M is surprisingly well respected in Cleveland. However, that is the only place it is well respected. So, if you don't mind staying in Cleveland for a fairly long amount of time - I wouldn't bother taking the year off. If you really want to be somewhere else, re-take. However, before subscribing to the T-30 or bust mindset, keep in mind the worst case scenario. You could not find a job for this upcoming year. Then you still have living expenses - and no income. Leaving you in a worse financial situation than before. Furthermore, you could wind up with a similar LSAT meaning you really wasted a year. I don't know how much you studied, but everyone always seems to think they can re-take and get in the high 160's/170's. If this was true - then no one would go to lower ranked schools. $80k really isn't all that bad.

[Grizz]

Also, JDizzle, what are the stipulations on the Cleveland Marshall scholarship?

Scholarship is renewable provided I maintain a 3.2 GPA.

Pretty high stip, probably. Retake or don't go.

[JDizzle]

Do not attend this institution. Retake the Law School Admission Test.

I trust your advice is sound, but why? Specifics, please.

Because this is a bad law school. It will leave you in debt and it (more than likely) will not grant you entrance into an already foundering legal field. Please do some research.

Those aren't specifics, lawschoollll. It's a bad law school why?--because it's a TTT, because it's in Cleveland, bad placement rates, and/or poor starting salaries? As snowpeach06 stated, C-M is surprisingly well-regarded within the Cleveland legal community. There are C-M grads that work all over Cleveland (from Jones Day/Big Law to litigation boutiques), and the courts are filled with C-M alums. Cleveland is still one of the top 10 legal markets in the country, and I think something like 88% of C-M grads are employed within 9 months of graduation. Furthermore, when I visited Case back in April over 1/2 the students I talked with expressed regret at not saving money and attending C-M. I understand that C-M isn't HYS, but you can't just say "this is a bad law school" with nothing to back it up other than the knowledge that it's a TTT school. I've done the research, have you?

However, before subscribing to the T-30 or bust mindset, keep in mind the worst case scenario. You could not find a job for this upcoming year. Then you still have living expenses - and no income. Leaving you in a worse financial situation than before. Furthermore, you could wind up with a similar LSAT meaning you really wasted a year. I don't know how much you studied, but everyone always seems to think they can re-take and get in the high 160's/170's. If this was true - then no one would go to lower ranked schools. $80k really isn't all that bad.

That's my fear. I really do not want to burn this next year on what could be the pipe-dream of scoring better on the LSAT. I thought $80K was relatively manageable, as well. Thanks.

[bk1]

I wouldn't consider scoring better on the LSAT a pipe dream.

[snowpeach06]

Do not attend this institution. Retake the Law School Admission Test.

I trust your advice is sound, but why? Specifics, please.

Because this is a bad law school. It will leave you in debt and it (more than likely) will not grant you entrance into an already foundering legal field. Please do some research.

Those aren't specifics, lawschoollll. It's a bad law school why?--because it's a TTT, because it's in Cleveland, bad placement rates, and/or poor starting salaries? As snowpeach06 stated, C-M is surprisingly well-regarded within the Cleveland legal community. There are C-M grads that work all over Cleveland (from Jones Day/Big Law to litigation boutiques), and the courts are filled with C-M alums. Cleveland is still one of the top 10 legal markets in the country, and I think something like 88% of C-M grads are employed within 9 months of graduation. Furthermore, when I visited Case back in April over 1/2 the students I talked with expressed regret at not saving money and attending C-M. I understand that C-M isn't HYS, but you can't just say "this is a bad law school" with nothing to back it up other than the knowledge that it's a TTT school. I've done the research, have you?

However, before subscribing to the T-30 or bust mindset, keep in mind the worst case scenario. You could not find a job for this upcoming year. Then you still have living expenses - and no income. Leaving you in a worse financial situation than before. Furthermore, you could wind up with a similar LSAT meaning you really wasted a year. I don't know how much you studied, but everyone always seems to think they can re-take and get in the high 160's/170's. If this was true - then no one would go to lower ranked schools. $80k really isn't all that bad.

That's my fear. I really do not want to burn this next year on what could be the pipe-dream of scoring better on the LSAT. I thought $80K was relatively manageable, as well. Thanks.

I have a half tuition scholarship at Case, and I'm still going to wind up paying more than that. I know a number of people at C-M, and they have nothing but positive things to say. I also know a bunch of alum who have great jobs in Cleveland.

I don't know if I'm just making this up, but it seems to me like you have the same chance at scoring higher as you would to transfer. Either is a bit far fetched, so to me, it seems as though it would be truly wasteful to wait a year. It's a long time and not necessarily the easy solution that everyone makes it out to be. Hopefully I'll see you in the Cleve next year.

[JDizzle]

I wouldn't consider scoring better on the LSAT a pipe dream.

I certainly don't consider it a pipe dream, either. I honestly feel as though I have at least 5 more points in me for that damn test. That said, it could still be a pipe dream.

I don't know if I'm just making this up, but it seems to me like you have the same chance at scoring higher as you would to transfer. Either is a bit far fetched, so to me, it seems as though it would be truly wasteful to wait a year. It's a long time and not necessarily the easy solution that everyone makes it out to be. Hopefully I'll see you in the Cleve next year.

I could see the odds of scoring higher being similar to the odds of transferring out, but then again, you could just be making it up .

Taking a year off definitely isn't the easy solution that it's cracked-up to be. I'd hate to be in this exact same situation 12 months from now. To quote Ron Burgundy: "This is HARD! I am in a pickle!"

[Thirteen]

The fact that you are already having second thoughts about taking more than 80K in loans to attend a poor law school shows that you realize it is a terrible idea.

A 3.5x is not a bad GPA at all. Read pithypike´s LSAT program... raise your score (or at least try)...profit.

[chicoalto0649]

Could I graduate from C-M and have a reasonable shot at securing employment that would allow me to pay back my debt come 2013?

Please advise, thanks.

Well, to be technical, of course you could. Have you talked to any 1Ls 2Ls and 3ls at CM? I know a lot of people at OSU, which is hands down the best school in the state, who can not find jack shit. Even 1L summer internships are scarce. Don't even think about OCI cause it is not happening at Moritz. I know you do not want biglaw but even government and PI jobs are super hard to come by. I imagine it is the same if not worse at CM.

[JDizzle]

Well, to be technical, of course you could. Have you talked to any 1Ls 2Ls and 3ls at CM? I know a lot of people at OSU, which is hands down the best school in the state, who can not find jack shit. Even 1L summer internships are scarce. Don't even think about OCI cause it is not happening at Moritz. I know you do not want biglaw but even government and PI jobs are super hard to come by. I imagine it is the same if not worse at CM.

I've spoken to 1 1L at C-M who used to post on the board fairly frequently (Cole S. Law), and he told me that he had a great summer internship lined-up since early spring and was feeling confident about his prospects. He spoke very highly of his experiences at C-M and was quite encouraging. Granted, that's just 1 person.

Sucks to hear about Moritz students struggling. I have a friend entering his 3L year at Moritz right now who is in the top 15% of his class and doors are continuing to open for him. I suppose launching a successful law career is all in class rank.

With my connections at a few local law firms I doubt I would struggle to find a summer internship, but it is certainly something to think about.

It seems like most people are supporting the "retake the LSAT" position, with only "snowpeach06" in support of attending C-M in August. I have to wonder if the people against attending make the call solely based on the TTT nature of C-M and not necessarily on knowledge of the Cleveland law scene (which "snowpeach06" seems to possess) or of the school itself. Decisions, decisions...

[sdv]

only a single anecdote, but I know a CM grad who got a job in Pittsburgh right out of law school, did quite well for himself, and started his own practice. From everything I hear it's not a bad school at all.

With that said, I wouldn't exactly side against those advising to retake - depends on your personal goals and whether you have the ability and/or desire to wait a year to pursue better opportunities. But CM is not a "bad" law school.

[mpj_3050]

JDizzle, you also have to consider that there are what, 8 or 9 law schools in Ohio? Realistically, it goes OSU, then Case/Cincinnati depending on the region. Those scholarship stipulations sound rough - 3.2 could be very difficult to achieve. Hell you really can't predict your law school performance and kids there are going to be incredibly motivated knowing they face stiff competition and hence why people here have stated that transferring is difficult. I would recommend a retake as the others have. Just study more and do well on the test. Don't be like me and get 2 160's when you were averaging high 160's, (but then again we had a proctor mess up although I should have coped better). Anyway, it is not that C-M is a 3rd tier but rather that it is 3rd tier in a state with quite a few law schools. Akron, Toledo, Ohio Northern are vying for those Cleveland jobs too. The more schools are in the state the more rank matters. If you can't retake then maybe try and look at state schools where you can maybe get a little bit of money and residency, states that don't have a ton of law schools. For example, I am researching Kentucky, Kansas, and Nebraska because I stand a chance of getting money and there reign in their respective states. Of course this all depends on your goals and preferences.

[lawschoollll]

Do not attend this institution. Retake the Law School Admission Test.

I trust your advice is sound, but why? Specifics, please.

Because this is a bad law school. It will leave you in debt and it (more than likely) will not grant you entrance into an already foundering legal field. Please do some research.

Those aren't specifics, lawschoollll. It's a bad law school why?--because it's a TTT, because it's in Cleveland, bad placement rates, and/or poor starting salaries? As snowpeach06 stated, C-M is surprisingly well-regarded within the Cleveland legal community. There are C-M grads that work all over Cleveland (from Jones Day/Big Law to litigation boutiques), and the courts are filled with C-M alums. Cleveland is still one of the top 10 legal markets in the country, and I think something like 88% of C-M grads are employed within 9 months of graduation. Furthermore, when I visited Case back in April over 1/2 the students I talked with expressed regret at not saving money and attending C-M. I understand that C-M isn't HYS, but you can't just say "this is a bad law school" with nothing to back it up other than the knowledge that it's a TTT school. I've done the research, have you?

In fact, I have, which is why I turned down scholarships to 2 lower T14s in favor of waiting to see if the legal market - which is currently nightmarish - might improve. Law school-published employment statistics are not accurate by any definition of that word. Seriously, either retake the LSAT and go to a significantly better school; retake the LSAT and go to a school with guaranteed $0 + living expenses in debt; or do not go to law school. Normally I'm not so dramatic, but: you've been warned.