IOWA 2012 Forum

[shredderrrrrr]

Yeah both scholarships have a top third stipulation. My Drake offer, however, has an interesting setup as far as stipulations go (my Iowa one may as well, but I have yet to receive the full information). In order to retain the Drake scholarship and stipend, I only need to be in the top third for one of the two semesters my first year. If I fail to do this, I can still receive the full scholarship minus the stipend if I was top 35% one of the two semesters. If I fail to do this, I get a 50% scholarship so long as I was top half in one of the two semesters.

All in all, you have a MUCH lower chance of losing the Drake scholarship. It's tempting if you want to stay in Des Moines.

I am 100% set on staying in Iowa. I really have no intention of working outside of the state, and think Des Moines is a great place. While the better prestige and better portability of Iowa make it tempting, the huge stipend and networking opportunities from the Opperman Scholarship make Drake a pretty good choice.

[Opie]

Yeah both scholarships have a top third stipulation. My Drake offer, however, has an interesting setup as far as stipulations go (my Iowa one may as well, but I have yet to receive the full information). In order to retain the Drake scholarship and stipend, I only need to be in the top third for one of the two semesters my first year. If I fail to do this, I can still receive the full scholarship minus the stipend if I was top 35% one of the two semesters. If I fail to do this, I get a 50% scholarship so long as I was top half in one of the two semesters.

All in all, you have a MUCH lower chance of losing the Drake scholarship. It's tempting if you want to stay in Des Moines.

I am 100% set on staying in Iowa. I really have no intention of working outside of the state, and think Des Moines is a great place. While the better prestige and better portability of Iowa make it tempting, the huge stipend and networking opportunities from the Opperman Scholarship make Drake a pretty good choice.

So, for Drake it's:
Top 33.3% = 100% tuition + $10k
Top 35% = 100% tuition
Top 50% = 50% tuition
Weighted average cost of attendance per year $46628

At Iowa, it's:
Top 37.5% = 100% tuition + free housing
Bottom 62.5% = nothing but free housing
Weighed average cost of attendance per year $16467.50

That makes a lot of assumptions and doesn't make some that probably should be made, but it's a start for your deciscion making.

ETA: You should probably add some more money to the Iowa one for utilities or anything not covered by your housing arrangement.

[sebastian0622]

Yeah both scholarships have a top third stipulation. My Drake offer, however, has an interesting setup as far as stipulations go (my Iowa one may as well, but I have yet to receive the full information). In order to retain the Drake scholarship and stipend, I only need to be in the top third for one of the two semesters my first year. If I fail to do this, I can still receive the full scholarship minus the stipend if I was top 35% one of the two semesters. If I fail to do this, I get a 50% scholarship so long as I was top half in one of the two semesters.

All in all, you have a MUCH lower chance of losing the Drake scholarship. It's tempting if you want to stay in Des Moines.

I am 100% set on staying in Iowa. I really have no intention of working outside of the state, and think Des Moines is a great place. While the better prestige and better portability of Iowa make it tempting, the huge stipend and networking opportunities from the Opperman Scholarship make Drake a pretty good choice.

It sure seems from Iowa OCI that Drake places just as well in Des Moines, probably better. And it places similarly all around Iowa based on my summer working at a firm in NE Iowa, where most of the grads were Drake grads. At Drake, you're missing out the national reputation of Iowa, and that's about it.

Top 37.5% at Iowa is far from a guarantee for anyone. Add in one significant life event (say, your parent gets hospitalized or you get sick) and the scholarship is toast. Or if nothing bad happens and you just struggle to adjust to law school, which happens to a lot of really smart people, you're still screwed. Of course, you're also competing against more qualified students, which won't have a huge effect but will probably have some.

And no, they won't make an exception for you if something terrible or time-consuming happens in your life. They don't care about you. My wife and I had a kid during Fall semester, then my dad spent the three weeks before and during Spring finals in the ICU, where he was in an induced coma and nearly died a couple times. He was in emergency surgery at midnight the night before my first Spring exam. Still, I finished in the top half for the year overall (including top 1/3rd the second semester), discussed the things that went on in my life with the administration, and they still summarily rescinded my scholarship with what sure seemed like no consideration at all for my circumstances.

Make no mistake: at Iowa (and probably elsewhere in law school), you are a number. You're not an individual, they don't care at all about you, and the system is designed to recoup some scholarship funds by rescinding the awards. This means it is up to you to seriously and carefully weigh the financial aid packages offered and treat this as a business decision, because that's how you will be treated.

If you are 100% sure you want to stay in Iowa, I'd take the money at Drake due to the likelihood of retaining significant scholarship money and the strong Iowa placement. Besides, Des Moines is a better (and even less expensive) place to live than Iowa City for people older than 24, and being at Drake would give you three years to network with Des Moines area employers.

[sebastian0622]

A funny story just as an aside:

When I was working in Des Moines and told people I was heading to law school for the upcoming Fall, they'd generally ask, "At Drake? I've heard that's a very good school." When I told them I was going to Iowa, most of them responded with this almost-indescribable tone of voice that was a mixture of patronizing, comforting/consoling, and a kind of forced enthusiasm. They'd say, "Oh, ohhhhhkaay..." and kind of nod a few times. It was obvious that they thought I failed to get admitted into Drake and was therefore forced to go to Iowa. This group of people included business managers and (non-legal) professionals. I mean, what are you supposed to say at that point? I didn't mind, but it was funny.

edit to add: I will say, among the people who practice in Iowa, there doesn't seem to be any elitism on behalf of the Iowa grads. I heard a little playful banter from alums of both schools over the summer, but there certainly isn't any overarching thought that Iowa grads are smarter / more successful than Drake grads. Because, when it comes to people practicing in Iowa, they really aren't. You can check any of the webpages for the Des Moines firms or the composition of the courts to support that as well. You'll see a LOT of Drake grads.

[Opie]

Honestly, I think the scholarships are about equal. If you lose the Iowa scholarship, you're paying about $53k for the three years. With the Drake scholarship, you could end up paying $57800 for the last two years minus the stipend you hit for 1L. This isn't including anything but tuition. With drake though you'll have to get housing. The Drake Neighborhood is kind of ghetto and you can get a 1BR that is liveable for about $7200 plus electric. Honestly, I think it boils down to where your girl gets a job and where you want to be.

[Opie]

A funny story just as an aside:

When I was working in Des Moines and told people I was heading to law school for the upcoming Fall, they'd generally ask, "At Drake? I've heard that's a very good school." When I told them I was going to Iowa, most of them responded with this almost-indescribable tone of voice that was a mixture of patronizing, comforting/consoling, and a kind of forced enthusiasm. They'd say, "Oh, ohhhhhkaay..." and kind of nod a few times. It was obvious that they thought I failed to get admitted into Drake and was therefore forced to go to Iowa. This group of people included business managers and (non-legal) professionals. I mean, what are you supposed to say at that point? I didn't mind, but it was funny.

edit to add: I will say, among the people who practice in Iowa, there doesn't seem to be any elitism on behalf of the Iowa grads. I heard a little playful banter from alums of both schools over the summer, but there certainly isn't any overarching thought that Iowa grads are smarter / more successful than Drake grads. Because, when it comes to people practicing in Iowa, they really aren't. You can check any of the webpages for the Des Moines firms or the composition of the courts to support that as well. You'll see a LOT of Drake grads.

I've seen that too. Drake has such a good reputation locally (based on it's UG I'm sure) that they assume it's a good law school (which it's not bad for what it is).

My planned response if I go to Iowa is that I got Into Drake but decided on Iowa because it's so much better ranked.

ETA: I'm currently researching placement at the better firms in Iowa and I think it's basically Drake = Iowa. I think more if the jobs went to Drake grads because most Drake grads are looking to stay here and a large amount of Iowa grads are from somewhere else (read: Illinois) and aren't planning on staying.

[shredderrrrrr]

Yeah both scholarships have a top third stipulation. My Drake offer, however, has an interesting setup as far as stipulations go (my Iowa one may as well, but I have yet to receive the full information). In order to retain the Drake scholarship and stipend, I only need to be in the top third for one of the two semesters my first year. If I fail to do this, I can still receive the full scholarship minus the stipend if I was top 35% one of the two semesters. If I fail to do this, I get a 50% scholarship so long as I was top half in one of the two semesters.

All in all, you have a MUCH lower chance of losing the Drake scholarship. It's tempting if you want to stay in Des Moines.

I am 100% set on staying in Iowa. I really have no intention of working outside of the state, and think Des Moines is a great place. While the better prestige and better portability of Iowa make it tempting, the huge stipend and networking opportunities from the Opperman Scholarship make Drake a pretty good choice.

It sure seems from Iowa OCI that Drake places just as well in Des Moines, probably better. And it places similarly all around Iowa based on my summer working at a firm in NE Iowa, where most of the grads were Drake grads. At Drake, you're missing out the national reputation of Iowa, and that's about it.

Top 37.5% at Iowa is far from a guarantee for anyone. Add in one significant life event (say, your parent gets hospitalized or you get sick) and the scholarship is toast. Or if nothing bad happens and you just struggle to adjust to law school, which happens to a lot of really smart people, you're still screwed. Of course, you're also competing against more qualified students, which won't have a huge effect but will probably have some.

And no, they won't make an exception for you if something terrible or time-consuming happens in your life. They don't care about you. My wife and I had a kid during Fall semester, then my dad spent the three weeks before and during Spring finals in the ICU, where he was in an induced coma and nearly died a couple times. He was in emergency surgery at midnight the night before my first Spring exam. Still, I finished in the top half for the year overall (including top 1/3rd the second semester), discussed the things that went on in my life with the administration, and they still summarily rescinded my scholarship with what sure seemed like no consideration at all for my circumstances.

Make no mistake: at Iowa (and probably elsewhere in law school), you are a number. You're not an individual, they don't care at all about you, and the system is designed to recoup some scholarship funds by rescinding the awards. This means it is up to you to seriously and carefully weigh the financial aid packages offered and treat this as a business decision, because that's how you will be treated.

If you are 100% sure you want to stay in Iowa, I'd take the money at Drake due to the likelihood of retaining significant scholarship money and the strong Iowa placement. Besides, Des Moines is a better (and even less expensive) place to live than Iowa City for people older than 24, and being at Drake would give you three years to network with Des Moines area employers.

Oh yes. I'm sure any school would be happy to take the money back the second they get a chance. Unfortunately, schools are for-profit businesses.

I love both Iowa City and Des Moines, but the chances of practicing in Iowa City seem very slim compared to practicing in Des Moines. I would think it is preferable while in school to be loacted in the city you will be most able to practice after graduation. For this reason, I think Drake would have an advantage.

From what I've gathered, Drake is as good as, if not slightly better than, Iowa in terms of placement in the state, while Iowa blows Drake out of the water anywhere else. For someone like me who has every intention of living in Iowa, that serves to eliminate any TTT negativity associated with Drake.

Thanks for all the opinions and help! It'll be an interesting decision.

[Opie]

Thanks for all the opinions and help! It'll be an interesting decision.

There will be more info once I finish my research. I'll be posting it in the choosing a law school forum and will link to it when I do.

[jbabs]

I find it hard to believe that Drake gets tangibly more respect from employers than Iowa. In terms of lay prestige, I'll freely concede that Iowa hasn't a...scholarly reputation. But among the people that matter, i.e. the attorneys responsible for hiring, wouldn't Iowa win out? Would a DM firm really prefer Drake's top third over Iowa's top third?

[sebastian0622]

Would a DM firm really prefer Drake's top third over Iowa's top third?

No reason to take it from strangers on the internet; you can pull up some of the major DSM law firms and look at their attorney profiles to see that the numbers are similar between Drake and U of I. I just checked out Davis Brown and they had similar numbers of Drake vs. Iowa grads. If the economy were better, I'd say it was a result of self-selection, but there is no shortage of qualified Iowa Law students who are trying to find any jobs and would gladly take one in Des Moines right now.

[Opie]

Would a DM firm really prefer Drake's top third over Iowa's top third?

No reason to take it from strangers on the internet; you can pull up some of the major DSM law firms and look at their attorney profiles to see that the numbers are similar between Drake and U of I. I just checked out Davis Brown and they had similar numbers of Drake vs. Iowa grads. If the economy were better, I'd say it was a result of self-selection, but there is no shortage of qualified Iowa Law students who are trying to find any jobs and would gladly take one in Des Moines right now.

Very true! And it's more like top 10-15% these days. You see a lot of Order of the Coif.

[buckythebadger]

In via status checker today! How long did it take for everyone to get a scholarship offer?

[jbabs]

In via status checker today! How long did it take for everyone to get a scholarship offer?

Congratulations! I received my scholarship offer via email about a month after my status checker updated, but Iowa only started making offers recently - hopefully you'd hear back sooner.

[traehekat]

Would a DM firm really prefer Drake's top third over Iowa's top third?

No reason to take it from strangers on the internet; you can pull up some of the major DSM law firms and look at their attorney profiles to see that the numbers are similar between Drake and U of I. I just checked out Davis Brown and they had similar numbers of Drake vs. Iowa grads. If the economy were better, I'd say it was a result of self-selection, but there is no shortage of qualified Iowa Law students who are trying to find any jobs and would gladly take one in Des Moines right now.

are there more iowa natives at drake than iowa? iowa typically gets ~50% out of state, and so if im a hiring partner and im choosing between top third, iowa native at drake and top third, not an iowa native at iowa, i might be more comfortable with the iowa native because i know he/she is less likely to jump ship after a few years, especially if they have significant ties to a major market like nyc/chi.

[sebastian0622]

Would a DM firm really prefer Drake's top third over Iowa's top third?

No reason to take it from strangers on the internet; you can pull up some of the major DSM law firms and look at their attorney profiles to see that the numbers are similar between Drake and U of I. I just checked out Davis Brown and they had similar numbers of Drake vs. Iowa grads. If the economy were better, I'd say it was a result of self-selection, but there is no shortage of qualified Iowa Law students who are trying to find any jobs and would gladly take one in Des Moines right now.

are there more iowa natives at drake than iowa? iowa typically gets ~50% out of state, and so if im a hiring partner and im choosing between top third, iowa native at drake and top third, not an iowa native at iowa, i might be more comfortable with the iowa native because i know he/she is less likely to jump ship after a few years, especially if they have significant ties to a major market like nyc/chi.

That's a good point. Obviously, we're not going to come up with a definitive, empirically-sound answer regarding the schools' relative weights in Des Moines or Iowa. More than anything, I was just trying to communicate that Drake places a lot in Des Moines and Iowa. As far as Des Moines is concerned, Drake and Iowa are peer schools. Sure, the pendulum may swing one way or the other a bit, but there isn't a massive difference. Obviously that changes once you leave the state, where I think you'd have a hard time with placement from Drake unless you were top 10% or something.

I guess what I'm saying is that the main advantage of Iowa over Drake is placement in Chicago, Minneapolis, and nationally--although national placement isn't easy out of Iowa. To the extent that Iowa may have better placement in state, it's probably marginal (especially in Des Moines).

The Drake vs. Iowa decision has to be weighted vastly differently by someone who wants to stay in Iowa versus someone who wants to leave Iowa.

[brupe]

@buckythebadger When did you go in review?

[Gail]

Preliminary Waitlist


166/3.6lol

What now?

I think that the fact that I don't go to a great college and that I have a substandard applicant background played a role in this.

[JuneLSATFail]

Preliminary Waitlist


166/3.6lol

What now?

I think that the fact that I don't go to a great college and that I have a substandard applicant background played a role in this.

You are above their LSAT 75th percentile and at their GPA median. I am not sure I understand why you got WL.

[Gail]

Preliminary Waitlist


166/3.6lol

What now?

I think that the fact that I don't go to a great college and that I have a substandard applicant background played a role in this.

You are above their LSAT 75th percentile and at their GPA median. I am not sure I understand why you got WL.

Not sure either. Maybe my PS sucked - I thought it was good, but I should probably re-read it now because that would make sense. Maybe my LORs were crap, two professors, one a business professor (major) and one a foreign language professor (minor). I did an addendum. Maybe they think I'm a criminal?


Sigh... I'm depressed.

[armstrot]

I'm going to withdraw my acceptance, so you can get accepted;)

Preliminary Waitlist



166/3.6lol

What now?

I think that the fact that I don't go to a great college and that I have a substandard applicant background played a role in this.

You are above their LSAT 75th percentile and at their GPA median. I am not sure I understand why you got WL.

Not sure either. Maybe my PS sucked - I thought it was good, but I should probably re-read it now because that would make sense. Maybe my LORs were crap, two professors, one a business professor (major) and one a foreign language professor (minor). I did an addendum. Maybe they think I'm a criminal?


Sigh... I'm depressed.

[Gail]

Should I send an LOCI? I still have yet to hear from any other schools? If I send an LOCI and they go ahead and accept me (probably with no money), will it be bad if I didn't attend?


EDIT: Would be totally stupid to ask them why they waitlisted me specifically?

[traehekat]

Should I send an LOCI? I still have yet to hear from any other schools? If I send an LOCI and they go ahead and accept me (probably with no money), will it be bad if I didn't attend?

I would say it's YP but Iowa doesn't really have a reputation for doing that so I'm not sure what the issue is. Can't hurt to send a LOCI.

[Gail]

Well, I only saw via status checker. Should I wait to see if they sent anything asking for more details? I can't believe it's YP.


My numbers aren't THAT much better than their medians. Right now the best school I could possibly squeak into is Texas, but they didn't send a fee waiver, so I didn't send an application.

[sebastian0622]

Well, I only saw via status checker. Should I wait to see if they sent anything asking for more details? I can't believe it's YP.


My numbers aren't THAT much better than their medians. Right now the best school I could possibly squeak into is Texas, but they didn't send a fee waiver, so I didn't send an application.

You should apply to Texas if you are ok with living there for three years of school. It's a really good school. Not sure what's up with the waitlist at Iowa. My numbers were just a tiny bit better than yours, and I got waitlisted at Minnesota in a similarly-confusing fashion. I got into much more selective schools (Vandy, Cornell), so no idea what happened. I thought MAYBE it's because I'm from Iowa, and Iowa is a peer school, so they assumed that I'd take Iowa over Minny if I didn't go somewhere higher. And to be honest, they'd have been right. Are you from Minnesota, Illinois, or Indiana?

[shredderrrrrr]

Would a DM firm really prefer Drake's top third over Iowa's top third?

No reason to take it from strangers on the internet; you can pull up some of the major DSM law firms and look at their attorney profiles to see that the numbers are similar between Drake and U of I. I just checked out Davis Brown and they had similar numbers of Drake vs. Iowa grads. If the economy were better, I'd say it was a result of self-selection, but there is no shortage of qualified Iowa Law students who are trying to find any jobs and would gladly take one in Des Moines right now.

are there more iowa natives at drake than iowa? iowa typically gets ~50% out of state, and so if im a hiring partner and im choosing between top third, iowa native at drake and top third, not an iowa native at iowa, i might be more comfortable with the iowa native because i know he/she is less likely to jump ship after a few years, especially if they have significant ties to a major market like nyc/chi.

That's a good point. Obviously, we're not going to come up with a definitive, empirically-sound answer regarding the schools' relative weights in Des Moines or Iowa. More than anything, I was just trying to communicate that Drake places a lot in Des Moines and Iowa. As far as Des Moines is concerned, Drake and Iowa are peer schools. Sure, the pendulum may swing one way or the other a bit, but there isn't a massive difference. Obviously that changes once you leave the state, where I think you'd have a hard time with placement from Drake unless you were top 10% or something.

I guess what I'm saying is that the main advantage of Iowa over Drake is placement in Chicago, Minneapolis, and nationally--although national placement isn't easy out of Iowa. To the extent that Iowa may have better placement in state, it's probably marginal (especially in Des Moines).

The Drake vs. Iowa decision has to be weighted vastly differently by someone who wants to stay in Iowa versus someone who wants to leave Iowa.

This is about the best explanation I've seen. It makes complete sense.