Columbia 2011! Forum

[amorfati]

Hate to break it to the other holds like myself, but based on some research into last year's hold results, things may not be looking up for us. Most people got into the WL.

Word on the street is that they're using the hold list somewhat differently than they did last year, or at least it seems that there are some people on hold who should be admitted based on their numbers.

My guess is that with last year's application surge they (and other schools) might have let in too many people too early, so they're being somewhat more cautious this time around (...even though it seems clear applications will have dropped off this cycle).

Some other schools are definitely doing similar things with their holds/waitlists.

[jrose5]

Hate to break it to the other holds like myself, but based on some research into last year's hold results, things may not be looking up for us. Most people got into the WL.

Word on the street is that they're using the hold list somewhat differently than they did last year, or at least it seems that there are some people on hold who should be admitted based on their numbers.

My guess is that with last year's application surge they (and other schools) might have let in too many people too early, so they're being somewhat more cautious this time around (...even though it seems clear applications will have dropped off this cycle).

Some other schools are definitely doing similar things with their holds/waitlists.

Makes sense. Others I've PM'ed today def. had good #s for Columbia. I hope they will let a substantial # of us off of "hold," though I still wonder what the difference between forgotten and hold is.

[archie&veronica]

And still no news for me (submitted in October)

Based purely on the fact that your profile says you got into Harvard and Stanford I don't think you have anything to worry about. Come to think of it, why do you care if you get into Columbia?

you're right, I don't care all that much, but I'd like a response since I spent the time and money applying! It's frustrating because I applied early and pretty much every other school has been able to make a decision on my file, so I don't get it..

[kobebeef]

Holds this late just proves that we aren't in "active considering" but we are in a pile to be re-reviewed late march. Haha

Wait, isn't a hold basically granting a re-review?

Yes.

Sigh, at least its not an outright rejection. I don't think I'll jump off a bridge if I don't get in but if a hold turns into a WL, how does CLS trend historically?

[Dany]

Sigh, at least its not an outright rejection. I don't think I'll jump off a bridge if I don't get in but if a hold turns into a WL, how does CLS trend historically?

Per LSN:

WL -> Admits

2006-2007: 6 (2 pages of WL results)
2007-2008: 4 (2 pages of WL results)
2008-2009: 2 (3 pages of WL results)
2009-2010: 0 (3 pages of WL results)

[Sample size, self-reporting, yadda yadda]

[BeachedBrit]

Also keep in mind that some holds don't change their status to waitlist until they get the decision from the hold that they are wl'd.

[lawscholar20]

Can someone please explain to me why Columbia has a "Hold" list? Why not put us on WL? The hold concept seems ridiculous. It's not like their indecisive and can't decide whether to admit us or not.

[lawscholar20]

Can someone please explain to me why Columbia has a "Hold" list? Why not put us on WL? The hold concept seems ridiculous. It's not like their indecisive and can't decide whether to admit us or not.

It seems to me that the Hold list is just a numbers based "technical" list used for organizational reasons.

[kobebeef]

Can someone please explain to me why Columbia has a "Hold" list? Why not put us on WL? The hold concept seems ridiculous. It's not like their indecisive and can't decide whether to admit us or not.

I believe, as others have surmised, that it's a "re-reviewing" process. Think of it as a waitlist before the waitlist. A waiting room to enter purgatory.

[Ratchet Jackson]

Can someone please explain to me why Columbia has a "Hold" list? Why not put us on WL? The hold concept seems ridiculous. It's not like their indecisive and can't decide whether to admit us or not.

I believe, as others have surmised, that it's a "re-reviewing" process. Think of it as a waitlist before the waitlist. A waiting room to enter purgatory.

This, but holding candidates enables CLS to postpone a decision in order to size up the entering class so they don't screw up their yields. If CLS discovers that the admissions they have already distributed are resulting in matriculation issues (aka not a lot of people are depositing), they will most likely actively engage the hold list for new admits. Vice versa (no matriculation issues) and yes, it seems as if many "held" candidates will inevitably end up in WL purgatory.

[nihilism is key]

Can someone please explain to me why Columbia has a "Hold" list? Why not put us on WL? The hold concept seems ridiculous. It's not like their indecisive and can't decide whether to admit us or not.

It seems to me that it is essentially a courtesy to applicants - a way to inform someone that they likely will not receive a decision until the end of the cycle.

[Knock]

Bar Statistics (Winter and Summer 2008 administrations)

State where the greatest number of first-time test takers took the bar NY
Bar passage rate (first-time test takers) 96.1% - High
Statewide bar passage rate (first-time test takers) 77.1%
Class of 2008 Graduates

Total graduates 445
Graduates known to be employed at graduation 97.3% - High
Graduates known to be employed nine months after graduation 97.8% - High
Class of 2008 Graduates-Class Breakdown at Graduation

Graduates whose employment status is unknown 1.3%
Graduates whose employment status is known 98.7%
Graduates known to be employed 98.6%
Graduates known to be enrolled in a full-time degree program 0.9%
Graduates known to be unemployed and seeking work 0.5%
Graduates known to be unemployed and not seeking work 0.0%
Class of 2008 Graduates-Class Breakdown at Nine Months

Graduates whose employment status is unknown 1.1%
Graduates whose employment status is known 98.9%
Graduates known to be employed 98.9%
Graduates known to be enrolled in a full-time degree program 0.9%
Graduates known to be unemployed and seeking work 0.0%
Graduates known to be unemployed and not seeking work 0.2%
Starting Salaries of Graduates Employed Full-time (Class of 2008)

25th percentile private sector starting salary $160,000
Median private sector starting salary $160,000
75th percentile private sector starting salary $160,000
Percent in the private sector who reported salary information 98%
Median public service starting salary $58,000
Areas of Legal Practice (Class of 2008)

Percent employed in academia 0.5%
Percent employed in business and industry 2.0%
Percent employed in government 2.2%
Percent employed in all judicial clerkships 8.0%
Percent employed in law firms 84.1%
Percent employed in public interest 3.2%
Percent employed in an unknown field 0.0%
Percent employed in a judicial clerkship by an Article III federal judge 8.0%
Employment Location (Class of 2008)

Graduates employed in-state 65%
Graduates employed out-of-state 33.0%
Graduates employed in foreign countries 2%
Number of states where graduates are employed 20
New England (CT, ME, MA, NH, RI, VT) 3.0%
Middle Atlantic (NY, NJ, PA) 68.0%
East North Central (IL, IN, MI, OH, WI) 2.0%
West North Central (IA, KS, MN, MO, NE, ND, SD) 0.5%
South Atlantic (DE, DC, FL, GA, MD, NC, SC, VA, WV) 9.0%
East South Central (AL, KY, MS, TN) 0.5%
West South Central (AR, LA, OK, TX) 2.0%
Pacific (AK, CA, HI, OR, WA) 12.0%
Mountain (AZ, CO, ID, MT, NV, NM, UT, WY) 1.0%
Employment location unknown 0.0%
Career Services

(Data appear as originally submitted by this school)
Career services operations The Career Services Office offers many educational and recruitment-based programs each of which is designed to meet the specific needs of each of the three J.D. classes and the international LL.M. students. For more info: http://www.law.columbia.edu/careers.
Job Type

Bar admission required/anticipated (e.g., attorney and corporate counsel positions, law clerks, judicial clerks) 98.0%
Bar admission required/anticipated - percent employed in full-time positions 100.0%
J.D. preferred, law degree enhances position (e.g., corporate contracts administrator, alternative dispute resolution specialist, government regulatory analyst, FBI special agent) 2.0%
J.D. preferred - percent employed in full-time positions 100.0%
Professional other (jobs that require professional skills or training but for which a J.D. is neither preferred nor particularly applicable; e.g., accountant, teacher, business manager, nurse) 0.0%
Professional other - percent employed in full-time positions N/A
Non-professional other (job that does not require any professional skills or training or is taken on a temporary basis and not viewed as part of a career path) 0.0%
Non-professional other - percent employed in full-time positions N/A
* Law School Careers details based on 2010 data

[mcweanis]

hey guys i compared the employment data and found some weird stuff that makes me doubt PI at columbia is at all viable.. :
http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 1&t=150402

[Lem37]

hey guys i compared the employment data and found some weird stuff that makes me doubt PI at columbia is at all viable.. :
http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 1&t=150402

Posted this in the other thread, but: you also have to remember that many of these percentages are self-select - as in, us students often choose what sector to practice in. Just because a large percentage of last year's CLS class appears to have chosen private sector over PI doesn't mean a PI career isn't viable at CLS, which is one of the top law schools in the country. To suggest that a PI career there is "not viable" is ridiculous.

[NikaneOkie]

And still no news for me (submitted in October)

Based purely on the fact that your profile says you got into Harvard and Stanford I don't think you have anything to worry about. Come to think of it, why do you care if you get into Columbia?

you're right, I don't care all that much, but I'd like a response since I spent the time and money applying! It's frustrating because I applied early and pretty much every other school has been able to make a decision on my file, so I don't get it..

I submitted in october, was forgotten, got into stanford, still cared, then got in about a week ago, so don't give up hope!

[mcweanis]

via

hey guys i compared the employment data and found some weird stuff that makes me doubt PI at columbia is at all viable.. :
http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 1&t=150402

Posted this in the other thread, but: you also have to remember that many of these percentages are self-select - as in, us students often choose what sector to practice in. Just because a large percentage of last year's CLS class appears to have chosen private sector over PI doesn't mean a PI career isn't viable at CLS, which is one of the top law schools in the country. To suggest that a PI career there is "not viable" is ridiculous.

viable isn't the right word- but then the question is, why do PI people self select to NYU? is it just reputation, or that people have chosen nyu for PI in the past so there's a big community, or is the lrap that much better, or the support for PI students, or the curriculum? i have heard both sides of all of these. if nyu is really 'better' than columbia for public interest in some quantifiable way other than just number of people doing it, i want to know how!

[Lem37]

via

hey guys i compared the employment data and found some weird stuff that makes me doubt PI at columbia is at all viable.. :
http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 1&t=150402

Posted this in the other thread, but: you also have to remember that many of these percentages are self-select - as in, us students often choose what sector to practice in. Just because a large percentage of last year's CLS class appears to have chosen private sector over PI doesn't mean a PI career isn't viable at CLS, which is one of the top law schools in the country. To suggest that a PI career there is "not viable" is ridiculous.

viable isn't the right word- but then the question is, why do PI people self select to NYU? is it just reputation, or that people have chosen nyu for PI in the past so there's a big community, or is the lrap that much better, or the support for PI students, or the curriculum? i have heard both sides of all of these. if nyu is really 'better' than columbia for public interest in some quantifiable way other than just number of people doing it, i want to know how!

I thought that the difference was more marginal in past years? As in, NYU 7-8% in PI, CLS 5-6%. If NYU has dramatically increased its PI percentage just this year (7-8% --> 14%), we may actually be looking at students who were displaced from the private sector into PI due to the shitty economy. For many law students who struck out at OCI BigLaw, public interest is definitely the next job option. I would be surprised in NYU did that poorly in the private sector, but you never know what the hell is happening ITE, and that appears to be a fairly large jump.

Honestly, it's more likely that people who are attracted to PI in the first place attend NYU, and thus self-select into the NYU --> PI thing. It can be self perpetuating, and says literally nothing about your chances at landing a PI gig after school. Most 1Ls at CLS work in PI their first summer (I currently work in PI myself). You're not going to be locked out of PI because you chose CLS over NYU.

[chasgoose]

via

hey guys i compared the employment data and found some weird stuff that makes me doubt PI at columbia is at all viable.. :
http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 1&t=150402

Posted this in the other thread, but: you also have to remember that many of these percentages are self-select - as in, us students often choose what sector to practice in. Just because a large percentage of last year's CLS class appears to have chosen private sector over PI doesn't mean a PI career isn't viable at CLS, which is one of the top law schools in the country. To suggest that a PI career there is "not viable" is ridiculous.

viable isn't the right word- but then the question is, why do PI people self select to NYU? is it just reputation, or that people have chosen nyu for PI in the past so there's a big community, or is the lrap that much better, or the support for PI students, or the curriculum? i have heard both sides of all of these. if nyu is really 'better' than columbia for public interest in some quantifiable way other than just number of people doing it, i want to know how!

I thought that the difference was more marginal in past years? As in, NYU 7-8% in PI, CLS 5-6%. If NYU has dramatically increased its PI percentage just this year (7-8% --> 14%), we may actually be looking at students who were displaced from the private sector into PI due to the shitty economy. For many law students who struck out at OCI BigLaw, public interest is definitely the next job option. I would be surprised in NYU did that poorly in the private sector, but you never know what the hell is happening ITE, and that appears to be a fairly large jump.

Honestly, it's more likely that people who are attracted to PI in the first place attend NYU, and thus self-select into the NYU --> PI thing. It can be self perpetuating, and says literally nothing about your chances at landing a PI gig after school. Most 1Ls at CLS work in PI their first summer (I currently work in PI myself). You're not going to be locked out of PI because you chose CLS over NYU.

I doubt that the PI numbers NYU has over CLS are due to people striking out at OCI and turning to PI. From what I can tell (and yes its as an unwise 0L, but based on the experiences of 2L/3L friends at top schools) PI jobs are usually harder to get than the jobs on offer at OCI. If you strike out at OCI, PI isn't necessarily that viable of an alternative. What is more likely for the difference is that people choosing between both that are also interested in PI self-select into NYU given its reputation for PI. Also, there is no doubt in my mind that NYU is more institutionally supportive towards students interested in PI. Its PI career services office seems far more extensive and supportive and it has that PI job fair which seems unparalleled among law schools also I mean PI is in its motto "A Private School in the Public Interest". Based on anecdotal evidence (which is admittedly weak) I get the feeling that pursuing PI at CLS takes a lot of fighting entropy and the general thrust of the students and the school towards private careers. It's not that CLS will make it harder to find a PI job (lets be real, it's still CLS) but that you will have to fight a little harder to keep wanting it. For those only sort of interested in PI and susceptible to the salaries of biglaw, CLS will probably kill their PI interest, whereas it might survive NYU. If you are definitely for sure interested in PI, then I don't think you can go wrong either way and should choose the school you like better.

[incompetentia]

NYU makes a point of their vast network available in PI, and tries to use it to their advantage in every way possible (seems to be unique among T6). It markets itself differently than the rest of the schools, and therefore attracts more students in that manner.

CLS attracts students by being CLS (otherwise none of us would have this patience with the damn status check).

[Lem37]

via

Posted this in the other thread, but: you also have to remember that many of these percentages are self-select - as in, us students often choose what sector to practice in. Just because a large percentage of last year's CLS class appears to have chosen private sector over PI doesn't mean a PI career isn't viable at CLS, which is one of the top law schools in the country. To suggest that a PI career there is "not viable" is ridiculous.

viable isn't the right word- but then the question is, why do PI people self select to NYU? is it just reputation, or that people have chosen nyu for PI in the past so there's a big community, or is the lrap that much better, or the support for PI students, or the curriculum? i have heard both sides of all of these. if nyu is really 'better' than columbia for public interest in some quantifiable way other than just number of people doing it, i want to know how!

I thought that the difference was more marginal in past years? As in, NYU 7-8% in PI, CLS 5-6%. If NYU has dramatically increased its PI percentage just this year (7-8% --> 14%), we may actually be looking at students who were displaced from the private sector into PI due to the shitty economy. For many law students who struck out at OCI BigLaw, public interest is definitely the next job option. I would be surprised in NYU did that poorly in the private sector, but you never know what the hell is happening ITE, and that appears to be a fairly large jump.

Honestly, it's more likely that people who are attracted to PI in the first place attend NYU, and thus self-select into the NYU --> PI thing. It can be self perpetuating, and says literally nothing about your chances at landing a PI gig after school. Most 1Ls at CLS work in PI their first summer (I currently work in PI myself). You're not going to be locked out of PI because you chose CLS over NYU.

I doubt that the PI numbers NYU has over CLS are due to people striking out at OCI and turning to PI. From what I can tell (and yes its as an unwise 0L, but based on the experiences of 2L/3L friends at top schools) PI jobs are usually harder to get than the jobs on offer at OCI. If you strike out at OCI, PI isn't necessarily that viable of an alternative. What is more likely for the difference is that people choosing between both that are also interested in PI self-select into NYU given its reputation for PI. Also, there is no doubt in my mind that NYU is more institutionally supportive towards students interested in PI. Its PI career services office seems far more extensive and supportive and it has that PI job fair which seems unparalleled among law schools also I mean PI is in its motto "A Private School in the Public Interest". Based on anecdotal evidence (which is admittedly weak) I get the feeling that pursuing PI at CLS takes a lot of fighting entropy and the general thrust of the students and the school towards private careers. It's not that CLS will make it harder to find a PI job (lets be real, it's still CLS) but that you will have to fight a little harder to keep wanting it. For those only sort of interested in PI and susceptible to the salaries of biglaw, CLS will probably kill their PI interest, whereas it might survive NYU. If you are definitely for sure interested in PI, then I don't think you can go wrong either way and should choose the school you like better.

I'll agree with the beginning of your analysis, because I doubt NYU struck out at OCI. However. being a 2L myself who worked in the legal industry before law school, I disagree with your analysis of getting public v. private interest jobs. You have one, maybe 2 shots at getting a BigLaw job (OCI) and one bad grade can sink you. After 2L year, it's really, really, really difficult to break into BigLaw because there's a pretty steady track from SA job ----> permanent offer, and the 3L who struck out the year before would be considered the exception to that rule. Getting a PI job last year was, for me, a thousand times easier - there are SO many more of them out there and they're a lot more lax about hard numbers (although obviously there's still competition for the top PI firms, so grades absolutely do matter). I applied over a four month period and had a lot of success.

But it's your last few sentences that give Columbia a bad name. You sort of portray us as greedy students who are susceptible to the evils of the world. I think that a few more people go into NYU knowing that they want to do PI, whereas a few more people come to CLS with an open mind about their future. This doesn't mean that people here are naturally swayed by money, because with the money of BigLaw comes long hours and little flexibility. You still have a HUGE percentage of students from both CLS and NYU going into private work, and I'd say the bump is just because many people who know they want to do PI decide, for whatever reason, that NYU is for them.

I am, to say the least, exhausted about defending CLS in the public/private debate, so barring any blatantly false accusations, I'm throwing in the towel.

[redsoxfan2495]

So... according to this graph we'll all probably be waiting a couple weeks for good news.



It kind of sucks that if they decide to wait list a bunch of us it'll be right around the time we have to commit elsewhere.

[chasgoose]

I'll agree with the beginning of your analysis, because I doubt NYU struck out at OCI. However. being a 2L myself who worked in the legal industry before law school, I disagree with your analysis of getting public v. private interest jobs. You have one, maybe 2 shots at getting a BigLaw job (OCI) and one bad grade can sink you. After 2L year, it's really, really, really difficult to break into BigLaw because there's a pretty steady track from SA job ----> permanent offer, and the 3L who struck out the year before would be considered the exception to that rule. Getting a PI job last year was, for me, a thousand times easier - there are SO many more of them out there and they're a lot more lax about hard numbers (although obviously there's still competition for the top PI firms, so grades absolutely do matter). I applied over a four month period and had a lot of success.

But it's your last few sentences that give Columbia a bad name. You sort of portray us as greedy students who are susceptible to the evils of the world. I think that a few more people go into NYU knowing that they want to do PI, whereas a few more people come to CLS with an open mind about their future. This doesn't mean that people here are naturally swayed by money, because with the money of BigLaw comes long hours and little flexibility. You still have a HUGE percentage of students from both CLS and NYU going into private work, and I'd say the bump is just because many people who know they want to do PI decide, for whatever reason, that NYU is for them.

I am, to say the least, exhausted about defending CLS in the public/private debate, so barring any blatantly false accusations, I'm throwing in the towel.

I don't think Columbia students are greedy and I didn't mean that in a negative way. I wasn't trying to make a value judgment between the two. I definitely plan on private practice upon graduation and have little to no interest in public interest law. Lets be honest too, even NYU with its vaunted PI reputation still only sends like 14-15% AT MOST to PI and almost everyone else into private practice. It's not like any law school sends that many people into the public interest because most law students want the salaries of private practice (both because of the high cost of law school, and because that's why many of them went to law school in the first place). It's not shameful to admit you want to be paid well. My point simply was, among the two, probably more self-select NYU who are interested in PI just as more probably self-select CLS who are interested in public interest. I also think that many students who don't know what they want to do are more susceptible to the influence of their friends and their institutional environment. Most of those people will end up choosing private practice anyways, just at NYU, with more people interested in PI, and the institutional emphasis on PI there is a chance that a little more of them will do PI than at CLS. I don't think that CLS students are more susceptible to "evil" because I don't think that wanting big law is evil, just as I don't think that wanting PI makes you morally superior.

[melamine]

aaah, just got held. Receive decision no later than April 22nd. Good to see a specific time that i'll hear by...

[Frasier27]

Just got reserved via email.

[OutCold]

Held via email today. Glad to still be in the running