UVA c/o 2016 Applicants (2012-2013 cycle) Forum

[Rahviveh]

What is conventional wisdom on negotiating scholly $$$ across peer school such as UVA and others within the lower T14? Should one contact them earlier in the cycle with the hopes of more cash flow being available (but obviously ruling the option out very, very early if the attempt is failed)? Or is it better to wait until March and April with all offers in hand? I had planned on waiting things out, but UVA seems to have the pedal to the metal right now with these scholly offers.

Wait till you have leverage.

I agree with noodleyone. It looks like they may be more willing to spend money this year to attract people they might have yped in the past. I applaud the effort!!

[shntn]

They seem less interested in YP this year. My numbers almost always get WL.

I 100% expected to be WLed. I was very, very happy and surprised with the acceptance.

And bernal. They chucked YP right out the window this year, it seems.

[elterrible78]

They seem less interested in YP this year. My numbers almost always get WL.

I 100% expected to be WLed. I was very, very happy and surprised with the acceptance.

And bernal. They chucked YP right out the window this year, it seems.

Will Penn do the same?

[shntn]

They seem less interested in YP this year. My numbers almost always get WL.

I 100% expected to be WLed. I was very, very happy and surprised with the acceptance.

And bernal. They chucked YP right out the window this year, it seems.

Will Penn do the same?

At this point I'm half tempted to walk over on my lunch break and just flat-out ask.

[20141023]

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[elterrible78]

At this point I'm half tempted to walk over on my lunch break and just flat-out ask.

Let me know what they say, will you?

[NoodleyOne]

Not to harp on this but...

What do you think UVAs swinging for the fences with tradition CCN+ admits means for the rest of the schools? It seems that they are especially worried about medians dropping in another down year and are trying to entice people that would normally end up at NYU, Columbia, Chicago, Harvard, etc. with big scholly offers. Could this potentially have a "trickle up" effect? For instance, I know my numbers normally mean I'm paying sticker or close to it at Columbia with the much higher NYC cost of living, and this offer from UVA makes it seem like a much better bet. Could we see Columbia or NYU increasing offers to maintain their class sizes + medians from lower ranked schools?

Although it appears that Michigan so far hasn't really thrown in the huge scholarship offers that UVA has so far, and we haven't heard anything from Penn or NYU yet to see how they react... I'm just curious as to what this aggression from UVA means for the rest of the cycle.

[lsacqueen]

Congrats to those accepted (and with those huge schollies )!!!

I was wondering if you guys had a status checker change from complete to something else, like UR or decision sent, before you got the call?

[NoodleyOne]

Congrats to those accepted (and with those huge schollies )!!!

I was wondering if you guys had a status checker change from complete to something else, like UR or decision sent, before you got the call?

I didn't. I got the call before the status checker.

[20141023]

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[jym_dawg]

Not to harp on this but...

What do you think UVAs swinging for the fences with tradition CCN+ admits means for the rest of the schools? It seems that they are especially worried about medians dropping in another down year and are trying to entice people that would normally end up at NYU, Columbia, Chicago, Harvard, etc. with big scholly offers. Could this potentially have a "trickle up" effect? For instance, I know my numbers normally mean I'm paying sticker or close to it at Columbia with the much higher NYC cost of living, and this offer from UVA makes it seem like a much better bet. Could we see Columbia or NYU increasing offers to maintain their class sizes + medians from lower ranked schools?

Although it appears that Michigan so far hasn't really thrown in the huge scholarship offers that UVA has so far, and we haven't heard anything from Penn or NYU yet to see how they react... I'm just curious as to what this aggression from UVA means for the rest of the cycle.

If they were interested in protecting the median at all costs, my first impression is that they'd throw money to 170/171s over 173+s because the former seem more likely to strike out at the T6 - UVA is competing mostly with MPD. Competition is much stiffer for the 173+s. For median protection purposes, a 170 is just as good as a 175.

Based on the some of the scholly numbers we've seen so far, I would agree that UVA is trying hard to keep (raise?) their medians but this phenomenon of raining money seems to be unique to them. If it were, don't think it necessarily implies that CCN would also play ball. Hard to tell this early in the cycle, though, and I hope I'm wrong and every school plays rainmaker.

[NoodleyOne]

Maybe my brain is just sleep-deprived as to why I'm thinking about it this much, but is this perhaps a move by UVA to jump in the rankings in some way? I'm just thinking maybe it's a strategic move on a cycle with down numbers to take advantage of the habits of other schools, and the increasing debt-awareness of incoming students, to make a long-term move. And I'm wondering how much other schools pay attention to this and will react accordingly.

[WhiteyCakes]

Maybe my brain is just sleep-deprived as to why I'm thinking about it this much, but is this perhaps a move by UVA to jump in the rankings in some way? I'm just thinking maybe it's a strategic move on a cycle with down numbers to take advantage of the habits of other schools, and the increasing debt-awareness of incoming students, to make a long-term move. And I'm wondering how much other schools pay attention to this and will react accordingly.

I can't look away from your new avi

[NoodleyOne]

Maybe my brain is just sleep-deprived as to why I'm thinking about it this much, but is this perhaps a move by UVA to jump in the rankings in some way? I'm just thinking maybe it's a strategic move on a cycle with down numbers to take advantage of the habits of other schools, and the increasing debt-awareness of incoming students, to make a long-term move. And I'm wondering how much other schools pay attention to this and will react accordingly.

I can't look away from your new avi

You're welcome.

[jym_dawg]

UVA and Penn are both sitting at 170/3.87. M and D already took the big median hit down to 169 last cycle. If everyone is right that fewer high scorers are applying, then maybe UVA is trying to avoid this too. Much harder to maintain that median with a class of 350 than 200. Not sure how Berkley fits into this picture, but a move to jump Penn seems plausible. LSN also shows UVA also threw money at a few RD 169s with very high (3.95+) GPAs.

[02889]

US News needs to lose "acceptance rate" as one of the criteria for its law school rankings as it currently accounts for 2.5% of a school's score - which is more than things you think would matter more like financial aid (1.5%), library resources (0.75%), and bar passage rate (2.0%). This alone creates crappy YP situations for very qualified applicants just so a school can claim that it is "selective." Anyway, like you all have said, I hope this cycle blows YP out the water for all of you overqualified TLSers (which I am not one of, just for the record).

I hear you on the stupidity of acceptance rate as a metric, mostly because it makes schools like UVA and Penn treat their high-numbers applicants either like gods or they completely ignore or deny them based entirely on whether they might attend, rather than their fit for the school, accomplishments, etc. But after going through the methodology, I think US News does a decent job. Maybe it should be tweaked or updated (like job placement having a much larger share), but it's not as bad when you see it all broken down:

Quality Assessment - 40% of total score
Peer assessment (25%)
Assessment by lawyers & judges (15%)

Selectivity - 25% of total score
Median LSAT (12.5%)
Median GPA (10%)
Acceptance rate (2.5%)

Placement Success - 20% of total score
Employment rate at graduation (4%)
Employment rate at 9 months (14%)
Bar passage rate (2%)

Faculty Resources - 15% of total score
Expenditures per student (9.75%)
Other, including financial aid (1.5%)
Student/faculty ratio (3%)
Number of volumes in library (0.75%)

[edit] It makes me think that in a cycle when nearly all schools might take hits to their medians, the law school would be better off shifting its attention to its career office to boost 9 month employment numbers, either artificially through school-funded gigs or through actively trying to get everyone jobs. The percent with jobs at 9 months out is 14% of the score, which is much more substantial than the 2.5% for acceptance rate.

[elblufer]

Placement success should mean much more to rankings than it does. You don't put $200k into a graduate degree to come out without a job, no matter how good the degree is.

[20141023]

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[Rahviveh]

Maybe my brain is just sleep-deprived as to why I'm thinking about it this much, but is this perhaps a move by UVA to jump in the rankings in some way? I'm just thinking maybe it's a strategic move on a cycle with down numbers to take advantage of the habits of other schools, and the increasing debt-awareness of incoming students, to make a long-term move. And I'm wondering how much other schools pay attention to this and will react accordingly.

Personally, I definitely feel like UVA sees this cycle as an opportunity to take a leap (or at least a small hop) in rankings. As U.S. News stated earlier this year:

“U.S. News plans to collect this new, more granular employment data and use it in our upcoming law school rankings. After studying the data, our goal is to revise the part of our Best Law Schools rankings methodology that has to do with employment rates.”

Last year, UVA actually had the highest placement rates in JD-required jobs out of any of the T14 (followed by Columbia). With the new methodology looking to implement the revised employment data, I definitely think that UVA will see a rise in rankings (even if it means UVA staying at #7 and Berkeley and Penn falling to #8). If they get this boost PLUS the boost of higher-than-normal-LSAT/GPA applicants this cycle, there might be some noticeable movement amongst the T14. (Especially because employment counts for 18% of a school's score.)

Doesnt that include school funded jobs?

[kingjones59]

Maybe my brain is just sleep-deprived as to why I'm thinking about it this much, but is this perhaps a move by UVA to jump in the rankings in some way? I'm just thinking maybe it's a strategic move on a cycle with down numbers to take advantage of the habits of other schools, and the increasing debt-awareness of incoming students, to make a long-term move. And I'm wondering how much other schools pay attention to this and will react accordingly.

Personally, I definitely feel like UVA sees this cycle as an opportunity to take a leap (or at least a small hop) in rankings. As U.S. News stated earlier this year:

“U.S. News plans to collect this new, more granular employment data and use it in our upcoming law school rankings. After studying the data, our goal is to revise the part of our Best Law Schools rankings methodology that has to do with employment rates.”

Last year, UVA actually had the highest placement rates in JD-required jobs out of any of the T14 (followed by Columbia). With the new methodology looking to implement the revised employment data, I definitely think that UVA will see a rise in rankings (even if it means UVA staying at #7 and Berkeley and Penn falling to #8). If they get this boost PLUS the boost of higher-than-normal-LSAT/GPA applicants this cycle, there might be some noticeable movement amongst the T14. (Especially because employment counts for 18% of a school's score.)

Skewed, since UVA has the highest school-funded job rate out of any of the T14

[02889]

Maybe my brain is just sleep-deprived as to why I'm thinking about it this much, but is this perhaps a move by UVA to jump in the rankings in some way? I'm just thinking maybe it's a strategic move on a cycle with down numbers to take advantage of the habits of other schools, and the increasing debt-awareness of incoming students, to make a long-term move. And I'm wondering how much other schools pay attention to this and will react accordingly.

Personally, I definitely feel like UVA sees this cycle as an opportunity to take a leap (or at least a small hop) in rankings. As U.S. News stated earlier this year:

“U.S. News plans to collect this new, more granular employment data and use it in our upcoming law school rankings. After studying the data, our goal is to revise the part of our Best Law Schools rankings methodology that has to do with employment rates.”

Last year, UVA actually had the highest placement rates in JD-required jobs out of any of the T14 (followed by Columbia). With the new methodology looking to implement the revised employment data, I definitely think that UVA will see a rise in rankings (even if it means UVA staying at #7 and Berkeley and Penn falling to #8). If they get this boost PLUS the boost of higher-than-normal-LSAT/GPA applicants this cycle, there might be some noticeable movement amongst the T14. (Especially because employment counts for 18% of a school's score.)

Skewed, since UVA has the highest school-funded job rate out of any of the T14

I think that was Regulus's point, supporting the idea that UVA is really trying to make a jump in the rankings due to their inflated employment data and potential new reach for top numbers.

[20141023]

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[Rahviveh]

Yale is TTT

[shntn]

Yale is TTT

And positively vicious with their YP.

[RSterling]

Sorry for the bump, but are there any September people still waiting? I'm sitting with a 169 and a GPA above the 75th and haven't heard a word. I'm getting (irrationally, probably) worried that I'm headed for WL territory. Is there someone out there willing to ease my fears?