IOWA 2012 Forum

[hawkeye22]

Fair enough. I suppose it depends on what you mean by "not difficult."

I wrote "not difficult for those that are competitive for Biglaw." Obviously, you are going to have a tough time going to Dorsey if you're outside of the top quarter.

[neeko]

Any movement?

[northerniowan]

Not yet.

[sebastian0622]

I am from Texas. I have a pretty good idea of what to expect if I go to SMU or U of Houston. For example, if one attends SMU, the "plan" is to work in Dallas or Ft. Worth. Someone from SMU generally does not try to work in Houston - it is not part of the typically achievable "plan" (maybe not impossible, just not generally attempted).
I know nothing about the plan at Iowa, so to speak. What is the typical plan for an Iowa Law student after school, is it to aim for Chicago and fall back on Des Moines? Is the average student aiming for Big Law? or is it more of a try for Big Law but happy with Mid Law (not for lack of opportunities, but just from a more laid back, less gunner-ish point of view)? It seems to me that an Iowa grad has more options in terms of markets than an SMU or UofH grad. Maybe another way to say this is that Iowa's region is a little larger in terms of square mileage and includes some interesting smaller markets. But maybe it also overlaps with some bigger schools in the region. Help me understand the landscape and the plan at Iowa.

I'm speaking from experience and observation here, and only partially from data, but I'll give my best effort. I'm not sure there is a "typical plan." If your plan going to Iowa is to get Chicago biglaw, that's not a very good plan, at least if you're not prepared to shift to Plan B by a month into your second year. Maybe one in 12 Iowa Law students (7-8% or so) get Chicago biglaw. I think the NLJ250 placement at Iowa is about 12% overall (this is actual data, not a guess), so if your plan at Iowa is to get biglaw anywhere, you do have a fighting chance to do it, but again, you really need a Plan B. Note that Plan B might be Des Moines midlaw for a lot of people, but those jobs are fairly limited too. You might have 10 people in your class get jobs there, because a lot of those firms pull from Drake instead.

Frankly, I'd say about two-thirds of people will have no legal job lined up by graduation, so the plan frankly needs to be FIND A JOB. Any job. I'm not sure people can be any pickier than that. Maybe if you're first in your class, but for 85%+ of people, you just need to take whatever you can get.

I mean, it's not at all hopeless if you know what you're getting into. Iowa has a solid national reputation. Even though that doesn't translate into a lot of firms at OCI and a lot of jobs being thrown around here, it presents an opportunity for you to get out and hustle. You can work in D.C. You can work in San Francisco. Those jobs aren't going to come to you, and they won't be at our OCI. But if you're a student in good standing (preferably top half of the class) at Iowa Law, and you are willing to hustle and network and learn to be (or naturally are) a good interviewer, you can make things happen. But it's not like you're at a T-14 and a third of your class will have an NLJ250 SA lined up through OCI and half of your class is going to have an NLJ250 job within nine months of graduating, with another big group doing federal clerkships, etc. It's going to be a lot scarier than that, and I think your ability to network, your personality, your flexibility in terms of where to practice and what to practice, those are all going to be a bigger factor here than a top school, or even a similarly-ranked school with a big home market.

In other words, the plan can't be "I'm going to do pretty well, there will be a lot of firms at OCI, and then I'm going to get a job in (whatever city)." It's more like, "I probably won't get anything at OCI, but I'm going to a school that employers respect. They may not come looking for me, but they won't laugh at me if I show up at the front door." Then you go bust your ass to find something.

Edit to add: A lot of people I know actually have never wanted biglaw. I would say maybe even half of the people I know didn't bid on any MN or Chi firms at OCI, including me. While some may not have bid on them due to grades, there were a lot of people who I talked to right away as a 1L who expressed that they didn't want biglaw. I just don't want it to seem like that's the holy grail, but it does provide some numbers for people to consider.

Edit to add: To answer your question more directly, a wish list of markets for an Iowa grad might go something like this, based on a combination of pay + likelihood of finding something: Chicago, Minneapolis, Des Moines, Kansas City, anywhere else in Iowa (including Cedar Rapids and Davenport), Wichita/Topeka/other mid-sized Midwestern cities, any where else in the country.

[shredderrrrrr]

Is there any real legal market in Iowa City? I obviously know there isn't enough demand to bank on getting on job there, but are there Iowa City firms at OCI? Do any students stand a chance of staying in Iowa City? As much as I love bigger cities, I would love to live in Iowa City. I know it unrealistic, but should I even think there is a chance?

[chrisbru]

Is there any real legal market in Iowa City? I obviously know there isn't enough demand to bank on getting on job there, but are there Iowa City firms at OCI? Do any students stand a chance of staying in Iowa City? As much as I love bigger cities, I would love to live in Iowa City. I know it unrealistic, but should I even think there is a chance?

You'd have a better chance in Cedar Rapids. Not many law firms in Iowa City, and they are all pretty small.

[sebastian0622]

I don't think there were any firms hiring for spots in Iowa City during OCI. There were maybe 3 from Cedar Rapids.

[chrisbru]

Man, kids would honestly pick Chicago over Minneapolis? I may sound like an idiot here, but I would hate to live in Chicago compared to Minneapolis. I seriously love Minneapolis. I'm not anti big-city (I love NYC), but I just can't foster any love for Chicago.

Yes. There are more jobs available, and they pay more from what I hear. Plus, a lot of Iowa students are from Illinois, but there aren't many Iowa students from Minnesota.

I agree with you though, Minneapolis >>>> Chicago IMO.

[shredderrrrrr]

Man, kids would honestly pick Chicago over Minneapolis? I may sound like an idiot here, but I would hate to live in Chicago compared to Minneapolis. I seriously love Minneapolis. I'm not anti big-city (I love NYC), but I just can't foster any love for Chicago.

Yes. There are more jobs available, and they pay more from what I hear. Plus, a lot of Iowa students are from Illinois, but there aren't many Iowa students from Minnesota.

I agree with you though, Minneapolis >>>> Chicago IMO.

Do you think the higher salaries in Chi are mitigated by the higher cost of living? I mean whenever I drive to Chicago, it's always about $30 to park for a few hours, even in a shitty lot a ways from Michigan Avenue. A few weekends ago in Minneapolis, however, I parked in a downtown lot for over 48 hours and it cost me about $11.

But that makes sense about more people heading there over MN due to job availability.

[chrisbru]

Do you think the higher salaries in Chi are mitigated by the higher cost of living? I mean whenever I drive to Chicago, it's always about $30 to park for a few hours, even in a shitty lot a ways from Michigan Avenue. A few weekends ago in Minneapolis, however, I parked in a downtown lot for over 48 hours and it cost me about $11.

But that makes sense about more people heading there over MN due to job availability.

Yeah, but a lot of people are prestige whores, and being able to say they make $160k in Chicago is better than saying they make $145k in Minneapolis.

[trublu25]

Do you think the higher salaries in Chi are mitigated by the higher cost of living? I mean whenever I drive to Chicago, it's always about $30 to park for a few hours, even in a shitty lot a ways from Michigan Avenue. A few weekends ago in Minneapolis, however, I parked in a downtown lot for over 48 hours and it cost me about $11.

But that makes sense about more people heading there over MN due to job availability.

Yeah, but a lot of people are prestige whores, and being able to say they make $160k in Chicago is better than saying they make $145k in Minneapolis.

Last I looked (as in during fall OCI), market in Minneapolis is around 110k. 160k is considerably more when you're servicing student loans, and Chicago does not have to be a terribly expensive city if you don't let all those zeros go to your head.

[shredderrrrrr]

Is there any real legal market in Iowa City? I obviously know there isn't enough demand to bank on getting on job there, but are there Iowa City firms at OCI? Do any students stand a chance of staying in Iowa City? As much as I love bigger cities, I would love to live in Iowa City. I know it unrealistic, but should I even think there is a chance?

You'd have a better chance in Cedar Rapids. Not many law firms in Iowa City, and they are all pretty small.

I'd almost rather live in Chicago than Cedar Rapids lol. I don't know why, but I've never liked CR. My girlfriend grew up in CR so I spent half of my high school years there and it always just felt dumpy. Compared to Iowa City though, lots of towns look pretty bad.

Still cool to know that there are nearby firms that hire from time to time.

[chrisbru]

Is there any real legal market in Iowa City? I obviously know there isn't enough demand to bank on getting on job there, but are there Iowa City firms at OCI? Do any students stand a chance of staying in Iowa City? As much as I love bigger cities, I would love to live in Iowa City. I know it unrealistic, but should I even think there is a chance?

You'd have a better chance in Cedar Rapids. Not many law firms in Iowa City, and they are all pretty small.

I'd almost rather live in Chicago than Cedar Rapids lol. I don't know why, but I've never liked CR. My girlfriend grew up in CR so I spent half of my high school years there and it always just felt dumpy. Compared to Iowa City though, lots of towns look pretty bad.

Still cool to know that there are nearby firms that hire from time to time.

I'd actually love to commute from Coralville to Cedar Rapids. If I can get a job there, I'll take it. 1) I don't really want to sell my house and 2) moving is a pain in the ass.

[hawkeye22]

Man, kids would honestly pick Chicago over Minneapolis? I may sound like an idiot here, but I would hate to live in Chicago compared to Minneapolis. I seriously love Minneapolis. I'm not anti big-city (I love NYC), but I just can't foster any love for Chicago.

Yes. There are more jobs available, and they pay more from what I hear. Plus, a lot of Iowa students are from Illinois, but there aren't many Iowa students from Minnesota.

I agree with you though, Minneapolis >>>> Chicago IMO.

Do you think the higher salaries in Chi are mitigated by the higher cost of living? I mean whenever I drive to Chicago, it's always about $30 to park for a few hours, even in a shitty lot a ways from Michigan Avenue. A few weekends ago in Minneapolis, however, I parked in a downtown lot for over 48 hours and it cost me about $11.

But that makes sense about more people heading there over MN due to job availability.

Lol, well if you are parking in garages on Michigan Ave, etc. your 160k isn't going to go very far. I think that on the whole the cost of living in Chicago can be quite low. Neighborhood selection is important in this regard: if you live on the Gold Coast and go party at the Enclave every night, then you're going to have to pay for it. However, there are tons of great, cheap places to live, eat and drink that aren't too far from the Loop.

Also, FWIW at least for us (Class of 2013) it was much easier to find something in Minneapolis than in Chicago. We had three Chicago firms at OCI and over ten from MN.

[shredderrrrrr]

Is there any real legal market in Iowa City? I obviously know there isn't enough demand to bank on getting on job there, but are there Iowa City firms at OCI? Do any students stand a chance of staying in Iowa City? As much as I love bigger cities, I would love to live in Iowa City. I know it unrealistic, but should I even think there is a chance?

You'd have a better chance in Cedar Rapids. Not many law firms in Iowa City, and they are all pretty small.

I'd almost rather live in Chicago than Cedar Rapids lol. I don't know why, but I've never liked CR. My girlfriend grew up in CR so I spent half of my high school years there and it always just felt dumpy. Compared to Iowa City though, lots of towns look pretty bad.

Still cool to know that there are nearby firms that hire from time to time.

I'd actually love to commute from Coralville to Cedar Rapids. If I can get a job there, I'll take it. 1) I don't really want to sell my house and 2) moving is a pain in the ass.

As a 0L, the idea of having ANY job sounds fantastic to me. Even if it is in a city I don't like.

[shredderrrrrr]

Man, kids would honestly pick Chicago over Minneapolis? I may sound like an idiot here, but I would hate to live in Chicago compared to Minneapolis. I seriously love Minneapolis. I'm not anti big-city (I love NYC), but I just can't foster any love for Chicago.

Yes. There are more jobs available, and they pay more from what I hear. Plus, a lot of Iowa students are from Illinois, but there aren't many Iowa students from Minnesota.

I agree with you though, Minneapolis >>>> Chicago IMO.

Do you think the higher salaries in Chi are mitigated by the higher cost of living? I mean whenever I drive to Chicago, it's always about $30 to park for a few hours, even in a shitty lot a ways from Michigan Avenue. A few weekends ago in Minneapolis, however, I parked in a downtown lot for over 48 hours and it cost me about $11.

But that makes sense about more people heading there over MN due to job availability.

Lol, well if you are parking in garages on Michigan Ave, etc. your 160k isn't going to go very far. I think that on the whole the cost of living in Chicago can be quite low. Neighborhood selection is important in this regard: if you live on the Gold Coast and go party at the Enclave every night, then you're going to have to pay for it. However, there are tons of great, cheap places to live, eat and drink that aren't too far from the Loop.

Also, FWIW at least for us (Class of 2013) it was much easier to find something in Minneapolis than in Chicago. We had three Chicago firms at OCI and over ten from MN.

My issue with Chicago is more personal preference than the cost of living. Anywhere can be relatively cheap if you're smart enough. I just don't really like the town itself. Don't really have any reason not to, but it just never grew on me. I do like the Grant Park area though.

[chrisbru]

Lol, well if you are parking in garages on Michigan Ave, etc. your 160k isn't going to go very far. I think that on the whole the cost of living in Chicago can be quite low. Neighborhood selection is important in this regard: if you live on the Gold Coast and go party at the Enclave every night, then you're going to have to pay for it. However, there are tons of great, cheap places to live, eat and drink that aren't too far from the Loop.

Also, FWIW at least for us (Class of 2013) it was much easier to find something in Minneapolis than in Chicago. We had three Chicago firms at OCI and over ten from MN.

Sidenote, I LOVE Enclave.

[Opie]

Anybody know how many Des Moines firms come to OCI? I realize there are only a few firms in Des Moines that will even be HIRING, but just curious about people's experience.

[game6]

In via status checker!

[shredderrrrrr]

You got my hopes up Iowa! I recieved a letter in the mail from UI Admissions and hoped it was scholarship information...but it was health form asking if I have been immunized for measels and mumps. Lol, rough.

[minnbills]

Accepted!

[chrisbru]

Accepted!

Congrats! Thinking about visiting?

This applies to game6 as well!

[minnbills]

Accepted!

Congrats! Thinking about visiting?

This applies to game6 as well!

Thanks! Yeah I think I will visit. Also, if anyone wants info on stats feel free to PM.

[chrisbru]

Accepted!

Congrats! Thinking about visiting?

This applies to game6 as well!

Thanks! Yeah I think I will visit. Also, if anyone wants info on stats feel free to PM.

Hit me up if you want a tour (of the law school, campus, or - preferably - the bars) let me know.

[minnbills]

Hit me up if you want a tour (of the law school, campus, or - preferably - the bars) let me know.

haha I definitely need to see both. Thanks man