Stanford Law School c/o 2018 Applicants (2014-2015 Cycle) Forum

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wsag286:

This so far has been a conversation centered on trying to make a rational decision between what higher ranked schools offer compared to lower ranked schools with reduced COA. By your logic, since "no one knows what's going to happen in the future," there's no incentive to reduce the amount of debt any student takes on because all he/she is doing is deferring luxury vacations and cars. You spent, like, 80% of your post creating a straw man argument about how prestige obsessed law 0Ls are carrying on a pity party when there are people out in the world who are struggling to put food on the table. Let me be clear -- worrying/obsessing about $300k of debt does not diminish the struggles of other people just becuase that debt is hopefully going to translate to a high-paying job in the future. It's a responsible way to consider and prepare for the future, as opposed to your much-repeated insistence that no one knows what's going to happen down the road. You're right: no one knows. But you're wrong to suggest that we can't influence what does happen or what kind of position we are in when life throws a curveball.

I'm not even going to really get into how YHS does offer marginally higher ROI for certain students. E.g., Stanford has the best, if not the second best, supreme court clinic in the country. Is it ridiculous for a student to weigh the possibility of participating in such a program compared to the COA savings of going to a different school that offers a scholly? No. It's a tradeoff people make. That tradeoff does NOT necessarily involve a range rover or bora bora. It could involve a desire to be debt free or to provide financial assistance to parents, etc.

Obviously this thread has gotten off track but I just hate when the law school version of #firstworldproblems gets used pejoratively and inappropriately to derail legit conversation.

[yot11]

It is impossible to know what is going to happen down the road...whether you'll land that biglaw job with big bonuses and pay off all of your debt in 10 years. Or whether you'll end up paying humongous tax bills after your IBR is done & loans are forgiven because you didn't land biglaw, ended up at a medium-sized firm in a locale with an unbelievably high cost-of-living, and had three children--two of which are sharing rooms because you can't afford a house big enough for all of them.

It's similarly impossible to know most things in the future. Such as whether you are going to have a mental breakdown and fall into depression. Or whether your firstborn child is going to contract a rare disease and riddle your family with medical bills. Or whether your elderly father is going to end up living with you and adding to your monthly expenses because he slipped on some icy stairs and broke his hip. I do not mean to be insensitive. What I am merely trying to say is: you cannot predict the future, and you have to deal with the cards you are dealt.

When I hear folks talking about the "struggle" of paying sticker at YHSCCN, I think of the people who do not even have college degrees, have two children to take care of, are single parents, making $35k at a job they'll almost certainly lose once it is outsourced, and are making do. The questions "how are you going to buy a house" or "how are you going to take care of your children" or "how are you going to pay your light bill" pop up daily. But they make do.

Some people like to claim that they are not "elite snobs" or that some other people are. Here's my take: we are all inherently "elite snobs" right now. Debating T14 with a full ride versus T4 at sticker is inherently an elite argument. We are relying on arguments of perceived prestigiousness to determine whether or not the prestige justifies the cost in certain cases. And that is fine. In this case, I don't mind it at all and in fact embrace this discussion.

What I do mind, though, is when we conflate this idea of "struggle" with the idea of attending YHSCCN or any T14 at sticker price. Some people jokingly say, "You might as well kill yourself." Tell that to struggling single parents without college degrees who literally cannot find permanent employment.

Ultimately, if I am saddled with $200-300k in debt, I will do what I have always planned to do: deal with the cards I am dealt. Yes, it may mean that I may never be able to buy the car of my dreams or install the gazebo behind my house, but I will definitely still be better off than 90% of people in that I have a professional degree from one of the top, elite schools in the country and somewhere down the line--even if not immediately--it will mean a lot to an employer. And yes, the tax burden might force me to rethink my dreams to parasail off the coast of Bora Bora, but I guess I'll have to settle for a road trip and sightseeing in New York City instead.

In the context of the T14 full-ride vs. YHS/CCN sticker/with debt argument, I will just say that it may ultimately be the case that you attend the T14 with a full-ride. And you will do great, attend law school debt free, and buy your dark black Range Rover with 24" rims and dual 4K HD screens on the back of the driver and passenger seats for the kids to watch Frozen on while en route to Aspen for your annual winter getaway. But if the law school game is one of prestige--and it is according to every lawyer I've spoken to--then I would rather do YHS/CCN at sticker and hold off on the Range Rover until 30 or 35. And if I'm indeed "drowning" in so much debt, maybe I'll have to get a Toyota Highlander instead, have the kids watch Frozen on my iPad, and stay at a bed-and-breakfast outside of Killington, Vermont.

Yup, you never know what's going to happen. So you should just leave your elderly father's driveway unshoveled, because hey, you never know what's going to happen. Maybe if you shovel it he'll trip on a crack on the concrete instead.

Point is, you should make a concerted effort to influence the things that you can control. Ie how much debt you take on. Good luck making it to your B&B in Vermont with your highlander when you lost your job at 27 and now are making $15/hour doing doc review. If you went to a school with $$$, you are not f*cked. If you went to HYS, you are.

[miamiri]

It is impossible to know what is going to happen down the road...whether you'll land that biglaw job with big bonuses and pay off all of your debt in 10 years. Or whether you'll end up paying humongous tax bills after your IBR is done & loans are forgiven because you didn't land biglaw, ended up at a medium-sized firm in a locale with an unbelievably high cost-of-living, and had three children--two of which are sharing rooms because you can't afford a house big enough for all of them.

It's similarly impossible to know most things in the future. Such as whether you are going to have a mental breakdown and fall into depression. Or whether your firstborn child is going to contract a rare disease and riddle your family with medical bills. Or whether your elderly father is going to end up living with you and adding to your monthly expenses because he slipped on some icy stairs and broke his hip. I do not mean to be insensitive. What I am merely trying to say is: you cannot predict the future, and you have to deal with the cards you are dealt.

When I hear folks talking about the "struggle" of paying sticker at YHSCCN, I think of the people who do not even have college degrees, have two children to take care of, are single parents, making $35k at a job they'll almost certainly lose once it is outsourced, and are making do. The questions "how are you going to buy a house" or "how are you going to take care of your children" or "how are you going to pay your light bill" pop up daily. But they make do.

Some people like to claim that they are not "elite snobs" or that some other people are. Here's my take: we are all inherently "elite snobs" right now. Debating T14 with a full ride versus T4 at sticker is inherently an elite argument. We are relying on arguments of perceived prestigiousness to determine whether or not the prestige justifies the cost in certain cases. And that is fine. In this case, I don't mind it at all and in fact embrace this discussion.

What I do mind, though, is when we conflate this idea of "struggle" with the idea of attending YHSCCN or any T14 at sticker price. Some people jokingly say, "You might as well kill yourself." Tell that to struggling single parents without college degrees who literally cannot find permanent employment.

Ultimately, if I am saddled with $200-300k in debt, I will do what I have always planned to do: deal with the cards I am dealt. Yes, it may mean that I may never be able to buy the car of my dreams or install the gazebo behind my house, but I will definitely still be better off than 90% of people in that I have a professional degree from one of the top, elite schools in the country and somewhere down the line--even if not immediately--it will mean a lot to an employer. And yes, the tax burden might force me to rethink my dreams to parasail off the coast of Bora Bora, but I guess I'll have to settle for a road trip and sightseeing in New York City instead.

In the context of the T14 full-ride vs. YHS/CCN sticker/with debt argument, I will just say that it may ultimately be the case that you attend the T14 with a full-ride. And you will do great, attend law school debt free, and buy your dark black Range Rover with 24" rims and dual 4K HD screens on the back of the driver and passenger seats for the kids to watch Frozen on while en route to Aspen for your annual winter getaway. But if the law school game is one of prestige--and it is according to every lawyer I've spoken to--then I would rather do YHS/CCN at sticker and hold off on the Range Rover until 30 or 35. And if I'm indeed "drowning" in so much debt, maybe I'll have to get a Toyota Highlander instead, have the kids watch Frozen on my iPad, and stay at a bed-and-breakfast outside of Killington, Vermont.

Yup, you never know what's going to happen. So you should just leave your elderly father's driveway unshoveled, because hey, you never know what's going to happen. Maybe if you shovel it he'll trip on a crack on the concrete instead.

Point is, you should make a concerted effort to influence the things that you can control. Ie how much debt you take on. Good luck making it to your B&B in Vermont with your highlander when you lost your job at 27 and now are making $15/hour doing doc review. If you went to a school with $$$, you are not f*cked. If you went to HYS, you are.

not sure what the purpose of this discussion is when no one even disagrees with each other here. No one has advocated taking debt on blindly. Of course it is a risk possibly compromising quality of life for a number of years. wsag826 was trying to demonstrate that it is important to keep perspective, not to lose the big picture, that even when you end up doing doc review you will likely get a different better job down the line (the person in the scenario is only 27 and has a graduate degree already) and are still much better off than the majority of people in the country.
If anyone is going to law school because of what comes or comes not afterward then they are going for the wrong reasons. Any motives other than to gain knowledge and form relationships and help people improve their lives are the wrong reasons to go, in my opinion.

And now lets get back to the original thread. Congrats to everyone admitted!

[tonysoprano]

It is impossible to know what is going to happen down the road...whether you'll land that biglaw job with big bonuses and pay off all of your debt in 10 years. Or whether you'll end up paying humongous tax bills after your IBR is done & loans are forgiven because you didn't land biglaw, ended up at a medium-sized firm in a locale with an unbelievably high cost-of-living, and had three children--two of which are sharing rooms because you can't afford a house big enough for all of them.

It's similarly impossible to know most things in the future. Such as whether you are going to have a mental breakdown and fall into depression. Or whether your firstborn child is going to contract a rare disease and riddle your family with medical bills. Or whether your elderly father is going to end up living with you and adding to your monthly expenses because he slipped on some icy stairs and broke his hip. I do not mean to be insensitive. What I am merely trying to say is: you cannot predict the future, and you have to deal with the cards you are dealt.

When I hear folks talking about the "struggle" of paying sticker at YHSCCN, I think of the people who do not even have college degrees, have two children to take care of, are single parents, making $35k at a job they'll almost certainly lose once it is outsourced, and are making do. The questions "how are you going to buy a house" or "how are you going to take care of your children" or "how are you going to pay your light bill" pop up daily. But they make do.

Some people like to claim that they are not "elite snobs" or that some other people are. Here's my take: we are all inherently "elite snobs" right now. Debating T14 with a full ride versus T4 at sticker is inherently an elite argument. We are relying on arguments of perceived prestigiousness to determine whether or not the prestige justifies the cost in certain cases. And that is fine. In this case, I don't mind it at all and in fact embrace this discussion.

What I do mind, though, is when we conflate this idea of "struggle" with the idea of attending YHSCCN or any T14 at sticker price. Some people jokingly say, "You might as well kill yourself." Tell that to struggling single parents without college degrees who literally cannot find permanent employment.

Ultimately, if I am saddled with $200-300k in debt, I will do what I have always planned to do: deal with the cards I am dealt. Yes, it may mean that I may never be able to buy the car of my dreams or install the gazebo behind my house, but I will definitely still be better off than 90% of people in that I have a professional degree from one of the top, elite schools in the country and somewhere down the line--even if not immediately--it will mean a lot to an employer. And yes, the tax burden might force me to rethink my dreams to parasail off the coast of Bora Bora, but I guess I'll have to settle for a road trip and sightseeing in New York City instead.

In the context of the T14 full-ride vs. YHS/CCN sticker/with debt argument, I will just say that it may ultimately be the case that you attend the T14 with a full-ride. And you will do great, attend law school debt free, and buy your dark black Range Rover with 24" rims and dual 4K HD screens on the back of the driver and passenger seats for the kids to watch Frozen on while en route to Aspen for your annual winter getaway. But if the law school game is one of prestige--and it is according to every lawyer I've spoken to--then I would rather do YHS/CCN at sticker and hold off on the Range Rover until 30 or 35. And if I'm indeed "drowning" in so much debt, maybe I'll have to get a Toyota Highlander instead, have the kids watch Frozen on my iPad, and stay at a bed-and-breakfast outside of Killington, Vermont.

Yup, you never know what's going to happen. So you should just leave your elderly father's driveway unshoveled, because hey, you never know what's going to happen. Maybe if you shovel it he'll trip on a crack on the concrete instead.

Point is, you should make a concerted effort to influence the things that you can control. Ie how much debt you take on. Good luck making it to your B&B in Vermont with your highlander when you lost your job at 27 and now are making $15/hour doing doc review. If you went to a school with $$$, you are not f*cked. If you went to HYS, you are.

not sure what the purpose of this discussion is when no one even disagrees with each other here. No one has advocated taking debt on blindly. Of course it is a risk possibly compromising quality of life for a number of years. wsag826 was trying to demonstrate that it is important to keep perspective, not to lose the big picture, that even when you end up doing doc review you will likely get a different better job down the line (the person in the scenario is only 27 and has a graduate degree already) and are still much better off than the majority of people in the country.
If anyone is going to law school because of what comes or comes not afterward then they are going for the wrong reasons. Any motives other than to gain knowledge and form relationships and help people improve their lives are the wrong reasons to go, in my opinion.

And now lets get back to the original thread. Congrats to everyone admitted!

+1

[everything_bagel]

Mets' link is all anyone here needs to read. QED.

Let's talk about Stanford vs. Harvard/Yale. For those of you who have strong preferences: what does it come down to?

[qwer123]

Mets' link is all anyone here needs to read. QED.

Let's talk about Stanford vs. Harvard/Yale. For those of you who have strong preferences: what does it come down to?

I like Stanford's weather, small class, grading system, and location so much. But Harvard's slightly higher lay prestige will probably be helpful if I am to pursue a career back in my home country in Asia.

[antiworldly]

Mets' link is all anyone here needs to read. QED.

Let's talk about Stanford vs. Harvard/Yale. For those of you who have strong preferences: what does it come down to?

Fiancée already lives and works in the town next to one. Which one? Just the hardest law school in the country to get in. Nice job dear. . .

[bookworm381]

Mets' link is all anyone here needs to read. QED.

Let's talk about Stanford vs. Harvard/Yale. For those of you who have strong preferences: what does it come down to?

For me its HY for location's sake. My family is from the south and my SO works in sports. Obviously there are sports teams near Stanford, but not nearly the amount surrounding HY (especially bc of NY). If we were to talk about weather preferences however...S all the way

[Indifference]

Mets' link is all anyone here needs to read. QED.

Let's talk about Stanford vs. Harvard/Yale. For those of you who have strong preferences: what does it come down to?

For me it's location. Family, SO, etc. all in the Northeast. So Stanford wins on weather (by so, so much), but not much else.

[wsag826]

wsag286:

This so far has been a conversation centered on trying to make a rational decision between what higher ranked schools offer compared to lower ranked schools with reduced COA. By your logic, since "no one knows what's going to happen in the future," there's no incentive to reduce the amount of debt any student takes on because all he/she is doing is deferring luxury vacations and cars. You spent, like, 80% of your post creating a straw man argument about how prestige obsessed law 0Ls are carrying on a pity party when there are people out in the world who are struggling to put food on the table. Let me be clear -- worrying/obsessing about $300k of debt does not diminish the struggles of other people just becuase that debt is hopefully going to translate to a high-paying job in the future. It's a responsible way to consider and prepare for the future, as opposed to your much-repeated insistence that no one knows what's going to happen down the road. You're right: no one knows. But you're wrong to suggest that we can't influence what does happen or what kind of position we are in when life throws a curveball.

I'm not even going to really get into how YHS does offer marginally higher ROI for certain students. E.g., Stanford has the best, if not the second best, supreme court clinic in the country. Is it ridiculous for a student to weigh the possibility of participating in such a program compared to the COA savings of going to a different school that offers a scholly? No. It's a tradeoff people make. That tradeoff does NOT necessarily involve a range rover or bora bora. It could involve a desire to be debt free or to provide financial assistance to parents, etc.

Obviously this thread has gotten off track but I just hate when the law school version of #firstworldproblems gets used pejoratively and inappropriately to derail legit conversation.

I agree that my argument devolved a bit into straw man, but my point is larger than that, as I explained/alluded to in previous posts. There is no need to categorize what I wrote as "first world problems" because it's not a first world problem for me. Where I come from, it is not a first world issue. It affects all kinds of people.

I'm not trying to make anyone feel bad or trying to insult people. I'm merely saying that we all deal with the cards we are dealt. Everyone will judge their debt accordingly, but for me, $200k of debt is not enough to make me give up YHS or CCN because I recognize just how important this prestige is to access certain jobs and fields. And given the salaries and wealth biglaw attorneys continue to generate, I'm willing to bet that most folks at these schools with $200k are still going to pay everything off. That might mean sacrificing some material things, but in the grand scheme of things, it does not mean sacrificing a roof over your head or the family you've always wanted to start.

Don't give up the school of your dreams because you got $100k at a T14 you just applied to because you would go there if you didn't get into Stanford. I've spoken to a number of friends who have carried on with that mentality, and all regret it. They tell me, "You're left wondering what could have been."

You may be less willing to do so, but I'm going to pursue my dream schools at whatever cost because I recognize the importance of it in the long-run and I see it as a risk worth taking. If it doesn't pan out, I'm not going to look back with deep regret because I got the degrees I needed and with these degrees, even those who fall can get back up quicker than most others.

I will refrain from further discussion on this given that it's getting a little bit off topic, but I hope everyone enjoys the rest of their weekend.

[LoganCouture]

Mets' link is all anyone here needs to read. QED.

Let's talk about Stanford vs. Harvard/Yale. For those of you who have strong preferences: what does it come down to?

I have a strong Stanford preference. Went there for undergrad, live on campus now, and it would be really convenient not to move across the country.

I also am pretty certain I want to land in SF/SV after law school so Stanford obviously is most convenient for that.

My family is in CA (most of my extended family lives 20 mins from me right now) and my SO would love to stay (his family is here and it is a great area for him job wise).

That said, I am visiting all three of YHS and am very open to changing my mind. Particularly if one is more generous with need aid than the others.

ETA: also I'm really hoping that I grab significant scholarship money in the T14. Nothing that's swayed me yet, but that's because I'm looking at decent need aid at YHS (at least, that's what I hope/expect).

[pylon]

ETA: also I'm really hoping that I grab significant scholarship money in the T14. Nothing that's swayed me yet, but that's because I'm looking at decent need aid at YHS (at least, that's what I hope/expect).

Slightly off-topic, but does anyone know if there's a resource or thread or calculator that helps predict how much need aid you will receive (as a basic estimate)?

For example, if I have $X in savings/debt, currently make $Y, parents make $Z - how much Need will I get? I don't know if this exists but I find it so hard to decide between HYS/CCN$/T14$$ at this point in the cycle because I'm not sure how much need based support I'll be getting.

[cc78]

^^The SLS Financial Aid handbook, which you can access via the ASW, and maybe even the general SLS Current Students page, gives some data that can be helpful. It does not disclose their parental contribution formula, though, but it does give good detail about how it treats your assets and income.

[pylon]

Thank you - found it! It doesn't entirely provide an answer, but it definitely gives some insight into the process. If anyone else is interested, here is the link: https://www.law.stanford.edu/tuition/jd/financial-aid

[LoganCouture]

ETA: also I'm really hoping that I grab significant scholarship money in the T14. Nothing that's swayed me yet, but that's because I'm looking at decent need aid at YHS (at least, that's what I hope/expect).

Slightly off-topic, but does anyone know if there's a resource or thread or calculator that helps predict how much need aid you will receive (as a basic estimate)?

For example, if I have $X in savings/debt, currently make $Y, parents make $Z - how much Need will I get? I don't know if this exists but I find it so hard to decide between HYS/CCN$/T14$$ at this point in the cycle because I'm not sure how much need based support I'll be getting.

I received a full need based scholarship in undergrad so that's why I assume that my package will be decent. I'm sorry, I don't have any special insight other than what's provided in the handbook.

[fra]

FYI - the spreadsheet got messed up.

[xylocarp]

FYI - the spreadsheet got messed up.

what's wrong with it?

[antiworldly]

FYI - the spreadsheet got messed up.

That should fix it, I don't think we lost any input.

[love4life29]

.

[ThePinkRanger]

I'm in!!!!! Submitted 12/1. This rocks. Pm for anything.

[LoganCouture]

I'm in!!!!! Submitted 12/1. This rocks. Pm for anything.

Congratulations!!

[ThePinkRanger]

I'm in!!!!! Submitted 12/1. This rocks. Pm for anything.

Congratulations!!

Thanks!!!

[yot11]

I'm in!!!!! Submitted 12/1. This rocks. Pm for anything.

Congratulations!! I'd be so stoked.

[jemthey17]

I'm in!!!!! Submitted 12/1. This rocks. Pm for anything.

Congratulations!!

Thanks!!!

Yay! Congrats! Hopefully more to come and more joiners for the c/o 2018 thread.

[cc78]

I'm in!!!!! Submitted 12/1. This rocks. Pm for anything.

Congrats!