Fordham(Full Tuition) vs. St. John's (free) vs.Brooklyn(1/3) Forum

[Guy]

retake

[rocon7383]

With some scholarship negotiations, I would now only have to pay roughly 10k per year to attend Cardozo. Any thoughts about this?

[rocon7383]

I see some people have voted, would you mind explaining the reason for your vote?

[HOPEFORCHANGE]

I'd go to Cardozo or Fordham. Fordham if you're in. People act like 10K or 20K or 30k per year is going to make or break them. Guess what? It won't. Compare median salaries. e.g. I had almost a full ride at a school that had a median starting salary of 50k. I chose to pay stick at a school with a median starting salary of 86k. Do the math.

Another thing to consider - in the end, when people ask where you went to school for the rest of your career, they won't ask "oh, but were you top 10% and/or on law review?" as a follow-up. Do you really want to have to drop that into the conversation so they don't think that you just couldn't get into the better school? And if you did anyway, how would you appear to them by saying, "but I was on law review and had a FULL RIDE." I also don't think going to a lower ranked school with way over 75th percentile credentials equals a much easier time in accomplishing either of the aforementioned anyway...

[rocon7383]

I'd go to Cardozo or Fordham. Fordham if you're in. People act like 10K or 20K or 30k per year is going to make or break them. Guess what? It won't. Compare median salaries. e.g. I had almost a full ride at a school that had a median starting salary of 50k. I chose to pay stick at a school with a median starting salary of 86k. Do the math.

Another thing to consider - in the end, when people ask where you went to school for the rest of your career, they won't ask "oh, but were you top 10% and/or on law review?" as a follow-up. Do you really want to have to drop that into the conversation so they don't think that you just couldn't get into the better school? And if you did anyway, how would you appear to them by saying, "but I was on law review and had a FULL RIDE." I also don't think going to a lower ranked school with way over 75th percentile credentials equals a much easier time in accomplishing either of the aforementioned anyway...

I can see where you're coming from. Although, I'm not really concerned about explaining a degree from a school like cardozo to other lawyers.

[Tron]

Even if you fall outside of the 25-33% and get shut out of big law for your 2l summer, you are amongst the top candidates for midlaw, boutiques, gov't/PI. The guy who mentioned gradations is right: there are jobs out there in nyc between 60-160k. And kids who go to fordham get those jobs over everyone else not at columbia/nyu/cornell. Guess what? Youll also be in the top pecking order for prestigious in school internships, which will help you land those mid/boutique law jobs, too. Another thing: going to fordham will make it a lot easier to get your second, third, and fourth jobs out of law school. Everyone on this site is so focused on where you start; you will be working for like 40 years, the Fordham name will carry you further than the alternative schools. Whenever the lateral market unfreezes, moving to a big firm if you start at a small one is not out of question either. I'm sure since Fordham has so many partners in top firms ("An analysis of the recently released AmLaw 100 shows that Fordham ranks fifth in number of graduates at the 30 firms with the highest average partner compensation.") it would bode better to have gone there than SJU, even if you kill it. After your first job, its networking that really counts (reputation aside), and that shouldn't be discounted, either.

[HOPEFORCHANGE]

I didn't really mean Cardozo. That's still good. I meant more the others. Fordham will just make you look best out of all of them though

[rocon7383]

So the overwhelming majority seem to go for fordham?

[Zarathustraspoke]

I concur but consider me a little bias being that I will be attending Fordham at (almost) sticker; essentially rationalizing through many of the various arguments put forth here. Ultimately, you have to realize that the odds are against you in finishing top of the class. However, you are attending a school that has a surprisingly strong network in NYC. Many TLSers will disagree but Fordham is undeniably gonna secure you a decent paying job over all the other schools you're considering.

Go to Fordham.

[rocon7383]

With some scholarship negotiations, BLS would now only cost me 6.5k per year. Man this decision is is a tough one..

[whattheheck]

Even if you fall outside of the 25-33% and get shut out of big law for your 2l summer, you are amongst the top candidates for midlaw, boutiques, gov't/PI. The guy who mentioned gradations is right: there are jobs out there in nyc between 60-160k. And kids who go to fordham get those jobs over everyone else not at columbia/nyu/cornell. Guess what? Youll also be in the top pecking order for prestigious in school internships, which will help you land those mid/boutique law jobs, too. Another thing: going to fordham will make it a lot easier to get your second, third, and fourth jobs out of law school. Everyone on this site is so focused on where you start; you will be working for like 40 years, the Fordham name will carry you further than the alternative schools. Whenever the lateral market unfreezes, moving to a big firm if you start at a small one is not out of question either. I'm sure since Fordham has so many partners in top firms ("An analysis of the recently released AmLaw 100 shows that Fordham ranks fifth in number of graduates at the 30 firms with the highest average partner compensation.") it would bode better to have gone there than SJU, even if you kill it. After your first job, its networking that really counts (reputation aside), and that shouldn't be discounted, either.

+1

I wonder if all those people who speaks about Fordham not placing well enough in the NYC market are people who actually live and work in NYC or out of state. OP, you definitely have a tough decision on your hand IMO. Fordham's name will take you places in NYC but having a full ride at St. John's is attractive. I say ultimately since your goal is BIGLAW right out of school then go to Fordham. St. John's may get you big law if graduating in the top of your class but it most likely will take time even in a booming market. If you are okay with the possible slow start but 0 debt then St. John's it is.

[Grizz]

For all these people harping about midsize firms, someone please post the bimodal salary distribution chart ASAP.

[blsingindisguise]

Fordham if you get in. Their employment stats are excellent.

lol

[rocon7383]

update:

Brooklyn is now a full ride, top 40% stipulation

[blsingindisguise]

I'd go to Cardozo or Fordham. Fordham if you're in. People act like 10K or 20K or 30k per year is going to make or break them. Guess what? It won't. Compare median salaries. e.g. I had almost a full ride at a school that had a median starting salary of 50k. I chose to pay stick at a school with a median starting salary of 86k. Do the math.

Another thing to consider - in the end, when people ask where you went to school for the rest of your career, they won't ask "oh, but were you top 10% and/or on law review?" as a follow-up. Do you really want to have to drop that into the conversation so they don't think that you just couldn't get into the better school? And if you did anyway, how would you appear to them by saying, "but I was on law review and had a FULL RIDE." I also don't think going to a lower ranked school with way over 75th percentile credentials equals a much easier time in accomplishing either of the aforementioned anyway...

This is an immensely ignorant post. The "median salaries" posted on law school websites are notoriously inaccurate. As for your career, job interviewers absolutely WILL care that you were top 10% and on law review, and most clients won't even care where you went to law school (and they're also not going to know whether Brooklyn or Cardozo or St. John's is ranked higher. They MAY not even know that Fordham is ranked higher, since it's not an especially prestigious undergraduate institution). Otherwise, you're just talking about meaningless lay prestige, and even that won't be much of an issue unless you went somewhere with a genuinely powerful name -- Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Stanford, etc.

[blsingindisguise]

Anyway, my opinion: BLS free vs. Cardozo with minimal debt is kind of a crapshoot. Marginally higher employment stats vs. marginally less debt (depending on the total difference in COA -- I didn't see that listed.) I wouldn't bother with St. John's.

Fordham at sticker is basically a biglaw (or six-figure midlaw, which is hard to land) or bust proposition. If you're that kind of guy, go for it.

[bk1]

For all these people harping about midsize firms, someone please post the bimodal salary distribution chart ASAP.

It wasn't ASAP but because nobody did it...

[NYC Law]

For all these people harping about midsize firms, someone please post the bimodal salary distribution chart ASAP.

It wasn't ASAP but because nobody did it...

If you integrate the area between 70k and 120k it would still account for ~20% of jobs. Just because the jobs aren't concentrated at one hard salary point (aka the typical biglaw market salary in the largest markets or the typical PI/Public Sector starting point) doesn't mean they don't exist, it just presents an illusion when you take a quick glance at misleading graphs.

But that discussion has been had before (I think).

[bk1]

If you integrate the area between 70k and 120k it would still account for ~20% of jobs. Just because the jobs aren't concentrated at one hard salary point (aka the typical biglaw market salary in the largest markets or the typical PI/Public Sector starting point) doesn't mean they don't exist, it just presents an illusion when you take a quick glance at misleading graphs.

But that discussion has been had before (I think).

You're not accounting for the fact that the graph had a roughly 50% response rate coupled with the high likelihood that those who didn't respond had salaries that were 60k or less. You're also ignoring that a lot of salaries in the middle range are actually market rate jobs in small markets (which is important because this thread is talking about NYC where these sorts of things are even less likely to exist in large quantities).

So yes midlaw does exist, but it is damn small and that it is the point.

[NYC Law]

If you integrate the area between 70k and 120k it would still account for ~20% of jobs. Just because the jobs aren't concentrated at one hard salary point (aka the typical biglaw market salary in the largest markets or the typical PI/Public Sector starting point) doesn't mean they don't exist, it just presents an illusion when you take a quick glance at misleading graphs.

But that discussion has been had before (I think).

You're not accounting for the fact that the graph had a roughly 50% response rate coupled with the high likelihood that those who didn't respond had salaries that were 60k or less. You're also ignoring that a lot of salaries in the middle range are actually market rate jobs in small markets (which is important because this thread is talking about NYC where these sorts of things are even less likely to exist in large quantities).

So yes midlaw does exist, but it is damn small and that it is the point.

If that's the case then all you can conclude is that the graph is pretty much useless.

I agree that midlaw is virtually nonexistent, but I don't think that graph is great for proving anything.

[rocon7383]

Brooklyn for free is really very tempting. I'm going to take a few days and really give this a lot of thought.

[rocon7383]

BLS Full Ride PLUS a $5,000 living stipend!

[law's cool]

.

[bubbletea]

So guys, I have put down deposits for Cardozo (Paulsen scholar=guaranteed full tuition 3 years regardless of rank) and Fordham (10K/ year scholarship, the rest out of pocket) and cannot decide!!!!

I'm not a "big law or bust" type gal, but I also don't like the idea of public interest. HELP!!!

[blsingindisguise]

Why would anyone vote St. John's over Brooklyn in this scenario? Am I missing something?