snob appeal of your undergraduate institution Forum

[09042014]

if you think an applicant's UG doesn't matter, you are delusional. just fucking accept it.

In law school admissions it means almost nothing. Whether or not you think it should is irrelevant, just fucking accept it.

The only school I see a noticeable difference is Penn.

Its pretty ridiculous but they don't seem to care. It makes more sense when you consider they don't care which major you took, they don't care if you took easy classes, they don't care if your LSAC GPA got fucked because of a medical emergency and a student had to withdraw near the end of the semester, they don't if you started school in 1980 fucked up and started again in 2003 and 4.0'd it.

[booboo]

Some anecdotal information I have passed on before...

I went to a (I guess...) recruiting session held by the deans of admission from Penn, Mich, and Chicago. All three said at sometime during the presentation, through a fictional candidate on their waitlist, that they were impressed by the HYP with a 3.6 and that, compared to the 3.8 from BF, they were equally competitive candidates. Mind you, the BF candidate had a LSAT retake increase of 13 to 171, where the other candidate retook the LSAT twice for two 169's.

Take that as you will.

[09042014]

Some anecdotal information I have passed on before...

I went to a (I guess...) recruiting session held by the deans of admission from Penn, Mich, and Chicago. All three said at sometime during the presentation, through a fictional candidate on their waitlist, that they were impressed by the HYP with a 3.6 and that, compared to the 3.8 from BF, they were equally competitive candidates. Mind you, the BF candidate had a LSAT retake increase of 13 to 171, where the other candidate retook the LSAT twice for two 169's.

Take that as you will.

Penn clearly values Ivy education. Mich and Chicago don't seem to. At least not 3.6 = 3.8.

[booboo]

Some anecdotal information I have passed on before...

I went to a (I guess...) recruiting session held by the deans of admission from Penn, Mich, and Chicago. All three said at sometime during the presentation, through a fictional candidate on their waitlist, that they were impressed by the HYP with a 3.6 and that, compared to the 3.8 from BF, they were equally competitive candidates. Mind you, the BF candidate had a LSAT retake increase of 13 to 171, where the other candidate retook the LSAT twice for two 169's.

Take that as you will.

Penn clearly values Ivy education. Mich and Chicago don't seem to. At least not 3.6 = 3.8.

Actually, I think UG prestige does matter to UChicago. Also, as I just remembered, I believe it was the UChicago representative that stated their GPA median was hanging on by a thread, and admitting the HYP candidate would hurt that number. Yet, it was still an equally weighed application.

Michigan seems to be the odd one out, though.

[ConMan345]

I think this whole conversation could roughly map onto the arguments about which students at which law school are "smarter." There are very, very bright and capable students at every school; however, the average is just higher at HYPS versus BF, as it is at HYS versus BF School of Law.

[ShibaDan]

This debate seems to pop up about every 6 months or so...let the LSAT speak for itself. If you went to Yale and got a 175 or went to community college and got a 175 you're both pretty smart in my book.

[nyskidude]

I'm still very bitter about not getting into Princeton UG... 97.69 high school average, was going for Math, got a 750 on the Math portion of SATs (and still did very well on the reading part), 800s on both Math portions of the SAT IIs, over a 30 on the ACTs, and got straight out rejected. I'm sure there were plenty of other people with scores better than mine that got rejected, too. Ivy league is just a crapshoot to get in most of the time, though.

[jerjon2]

Some anecdotal information I have passed on before...

I went to a (I guess...) recruiting session held by the deans of admission from Penn, Mich, and Chicago. All three said at sometime during the presentation, through a fictional candidate on their waitlist, that they were impressed by the HYP with a 3.6 and that, compared to the 3.8 from BF, they were equally competitive candidates. Mind you, the BF candidate had a LSAT retake increase of 13 to 171, where the other candidate retook the LSAT twice for two 169's.

Take that as you will.

Penn clearly values Ivy education. Mich and Chicago don't seem to. At least not 3.6 = 3.8.

Actually, I think UG prestige does matter to UChicago. Also, as I just remembered, I believe it was the UChicago representative that stated their GPA median was hanging on by a thread, and admitting the HYP candidate would hurt that number. Yet, it was still an equally weighed application.

Michigan seems to be the odd one out, though.

I think people may be overestimating how much UG prestige you need to have for it to matter to UChicago. When I was accepted the call I got mentioned my UG (Georgia Tech) as if it meant something. Though I don't think it would have meant anything had I not majored in an engineering discipline...

[09042014]

Some anecdotal information I have passed on before...

I went to a (I guess...) recruiting session held by the deans of admission from Penn, Mich, and Chicago. All three said at sometime during the presentation, through a fictional candidate on their waitlist, that they were impressed by the HYP with a 3.6 and that, compared to the 3.8 from BF, they were equally competitive candidates. Mind you, the BF candidate had a LSAT retake increase of 13 to 171, where the other candidate retook the LSAT twice for two 169's.

Take that as you will.

Penn clearly values Ivy education. Mich and Chicago don't seem to. At least not 3.6 = 3.8.

Actually, I think UG prestige does matter to UChicago. Also, as I just remembered, I believe it was the UChicago representative that stated their GPA median was hanging on by a thread, and admitting the HYP candidate would hurt that number. Yet, it was still an equally weighed application.

Michigan seems to be the odd one out, though.

I think people may be overestimating how much UG prestige you need to have for it to matter to UChicago. When I was accepted the call I got mentioned my UG (Georgia Tech) as if it meant something. Though I don't think it would have meant anything had I not majored in an engineering discipline...

Georgia is basically the an equivalent to an ivy, but for engineering. Though its probably the Cornell of the top engineering schools

[rayiner]

I don't give a shit what the Chicago adcom said. 169/3.6 from HYP still isn't getting into Chicago, 171/3.8 from BF probably will. Just look at LSN...

[kittenmittons]

tl;dr Is hopeful in this thread?

[umichgrad]

Being myself intimately acquainted with both UMich and HYP, I can clearly state that the smartest kids I knew at Mich were equally smart and actually quite a bit more driven than the kids I knew at HYP. There was more competition, more need to distinguish oneself, and less of the reeking entitlement that a lot of HYP kids develop during their cushy 4-5 years in college. Getting a personalized LOR from a standout professor, which I did 3 times, is a lot harder when you share your professor with 200 other students as compared to 20.

That said, state schools also significantly lower their standards for in-state kids, so Mich had its share of nearly retarded people from in-state, as every top state school does. HYP don't have to deal with that phenomenon, thus making the aggregate of their class much more intelligent than the entire incoming class of a flagship state school.

[crombot]

FWIW, grad inflation is NOT built in at all schools. In 2004, Princeton instituted a grade deflation policy, limiting the number of As awarded to 35% by department. The result? Average Ivy UG GPAs:

* Brown: 3.61
* Stanford: 3.55
* Yale: 3.51
* Harvard: 3.45
* Penn: 3.44
* Dartmouth: 3.42
* Columbia: 3.42
* Cornell: 3.36
* Princeton: 3.28

Sure, Princeton's 'snob' appeal is still there, but when going up against HY kids who have higher GPAs, it hurts grads when applying to law & medical schools. It has been a VERY controversial topic since its inception.

And what kid did a previous poster know that said Princeton kids did drugs during their 5 years???? First, you only get 8 semesters to graduate. Period. Secondly, drugs were not 'rampant'..and the people who chose to do them mostly did it in small, secluded groups--it wasn't going on in plain site on average Saturday nights at the eating clubs.

If I had to do it over though, I probably would have gone to H or Y had had the nice .2 boost for GPA. However, this cycle hasn't really seemed to hurt me that much--most schools on LSP that had me at "deny" or "weak consider" I got admitted to, and even some $$.

To make a long answer short, experience this cycle has absolutely proven to me that my UG institution has mattered, especially since I have a GPA on the lower end (was a varsity athlete).

[Tangerine Gleam]

Anecdotal evidence: two of my acceptances so far have been accompanied by personal notes from Deans saying that they love students from my particular school and were happy to see another one apply. Of course, this doesn't necessarily mean anything.

I didn't go to HYP, but a "Top" liberal arts school.

[bloodonthetracks]

Anecdotal evidence: at on-campus Northwestern interview, the admission officer told me that UG definitely matters in how they view GPA.

[Tangerine Gleam]

Between identical candidates, the prestigious undergrad will probably win out, but I don't see it making up for inferior numbers.

TITCR

[RVP11]

Biggest problem here is you guys are actually putting stock in what adcomms tell you. Y'all realize that PR is a big part of their job, right?

[bloodonthetracks]

Biggest problem here is you guys are actually putting stock in what adcomms tell you. Y'all realize that PR is a big part of their job, right?

and you are putting all of your stock in LSN, which shows us a plot of unaccredited data points posted by a tiny, tiny fraction of a law school's applicant pool. i'm not saying LSN is worthless by any means, but don't act like you have god on your side.

[09042014]

Anecdotal evidence: two of my acceptances so far have been accompanied by personal notes from Deans saying that they love students from my particular school and were happy to see another one apply. Of course, this doesn't necessarily mean anything.

I didn't go to HYP, but a "Top" liberal arts school.

And Iowa sent me a letter congratulating me on my academic excellence. I have a 2.8 with many more C's than A's. You can't trust what they say, they are marketing their school.

It's why the waitress puts a note on the receipt sometimes. Being personal makes people feel a connection.

[RVP11]

Biggest problem here is you guys are actually putting stock in what adcomms tell you. Y'all realize that PR is a big part of their job, right?

and you are putting all of your stock in LSN, which shows us a plot of unaccredited data points posted by a tiny, tiny fraction of a law school's applicant pool. i'm not saying LSN is worthless by any means, but don't act like you have god on your side.

I'd rather believe an anonymous sample than people who have a clear interest in getting me to apply to their school (and making everyone think their admissions process is holistic and fair).

[bloodonthetracks]

Anecdotal evidence: at on-campus Northwestern interview, the admission officer told me that UG definitely matters in how they view GPA.

I don't dispute this. There are plenty of good reasons for taking UG into account when viewing GPA. GPA distribution will vary by UG, for instance, which is why LSAC puts it on their report. GPAs from top engineering schools are going to mean something different from GPAs at liberal arts schools. And so on. But this thread is about what role UG prestige plays in the admissions process.

maybe i'm confused about the semantics of this thread. this is what i meant: adcomms take into account the prestige of UG--if you mean "prestige" to be the academic reputation of a UG. i do not think that "prestige" in the sense of "lay prestige"--what the average guy on the street thinks is a good college--means anything to addcoms. it's not like adcomms have never heard of Swarthmore or Williams. they know what the good colleges are, regardless of "snob appeal".

[dk8]

Biggest problem here is you guys are actually putting stock in what adcomms tell you. Y'all realize that PR is a big part of their job, right?

and you are putting all of your stock in LSN, which shows us a plot of unaccredited data points posted by a tiny, tiny fraction of a law school's applicant pool. i'm not saying LSN is worthless by any means, but don't act like you have god on your side.

I'd rather believe an anonymous sample than people who have a clear interest in getting me to apply to their school (and making everyone think their admissions process is holistic and fair).

this.

[jerjon2]

Georgia is basically the an equivalent to an ivy, but for engineering. Though its probably the Cornell of the top engineering schools

I don't buy that. Cornell is the Cornell of the top engineering schools (Its still top 10...)

[quetzalcoatl]

They have to consider UG, but probably consider area of study more. I have always thought it was kind of strange that the two top IP schools (Stanford, Berkeley) place so much weight on GPA when engineering majors tend to have lower GPAs.

[jerjon2]

I don't give a shit what the Chicago adcom said. 169/3.6 from HYP still isn't getting into Chicago, 171/3.8 from BF probably will. Just look at LSN...

I wouldn't dispute this, I'm just saying that their may be a wider breadth of schools than people think that get the nod in borderline cases.