Cooley PEP program Forum

[psychomohel]

I have gotten decent results, and I think I spent a total of $50 studying for the LSAT as I sat in Borders and read their books while writing down answers in my own notebooks. When applying to schools I got all my information off of TLS, as no one in my family is familiar with law schools.

+1

[BigFatPanda]

Law school is temporary. Class is permanent.

amen

[gossipgirl]

Gah this is irritating to me...

Lots of people did not have mommy and daddy bankroll them for tutors and LSAT classes, came from families without college degrees, and yet still attended great schools (it's called financial aid) and are going to top law schools. For you to look down on those who are going to such schools as all having been products of privilege is just the same as for them to look down on those going to lower-ranked schools as dumb or unfit to practice law.

Because people who attend the University of Maine, Suffolk University, Thomas Jefferson School of Law or Cooley are a lazy, intellectually-inferior bunch, right?

That went right over your head huh Iota?

No I didn't, moon. However, in gossipgirl's response, she is inherently assuming that: A.) Financial Aid is the Holy Grail for those who are not-wealthy/struggling financially B.) Everyone can attend a top school and C.) Those who attend the schools that I mentioned are not fit to practice law.

My response, albeit it was acerbic, was a retort to, what i believe, is, more or less, her actual opinion of those who attend the aforementioned schools.

But I can see how my response was rash.

That wasn't what I said at all. I said for you to assume that those attending top schools are the products of privilege is the same as for people going to top schools to assume people going to lower schools are dumb. You're stereotyping.

[moonmaster3]

That wasn't what I said at all. I said for you to assume that those attending top schools are the products of privilege is the same as for people going to top schools to assume people going to lower schools are dumb. You're stereotyping.

Exactly. And it's still going over his head, couple miles down the road by now.

[ATOIsp07]

Group-think.

[The Zeppelin]

Nope. Class rank is not randomly assigned to students.

No shit, Sherlock. But most people attending a school banking on being in the top 20% of their class will most likely be disappointed. This is just fact. Thanks for playing!

Since we don't know who he is in real life and know nothing about the other Duke students, he is basically just a random duke student. So the chance that a random Duke student is in the top 50% of the class is well, 50%.

bottom 50% of HYS>top 50% of Duke. Correct, right?

Wow.

I just don't like using oversimplified probability to predict something like class rank. Most importantly, I hate it when people assume they'll obtain a certain rank at their school. You have to be comfortable with being at the school's median.

You have anger issues.

[psychomohel]

.

[The Zeppelin]

.

[psychomohel]

Oh sorry then, I'll edit my earlier post.

[cubswin]

No I didn't, moon. However, in gossipgirl's response, she is inherently assuming that: A.) Financial Aid is the Holy Grail for those who are not-wealthy/struggling financially B.) Everyone can attend a top school and C.) Those who attend the schools that I mentioned are not fit to practice law.

You really don't seem to think that schools like Cooley, John Marshall, etc. exploit the hopes and dreams of prospective law students. Many, if not most, of the students attending those schools are totally getting hosed financially. Sure, there are probably people who have done well with a Cooley degree, but my guess is that most of them attended on academic scholarship.

Of course not everyone can attend a top law school. Law school isn't for everyone, nor should it be. There is only room for so many lawyers, and the competition for those spots happens to be pretty rough at the moment. This is not the fault of TLS.

TLS might be harsh and elitist, but law is a pretty elitist profession. IMHO, TLS provides tough love, and has probably counseled many students out of going $100,000+ in the hole for a degree that won't afford them the opportunities they think it will.

My response, albeit it was acerbic, was a retort to, what i believe, is, more or less, her actual opinion of those who attend the aforementioned schools.

Worst sentence ever.

[darknightbegins]

No I didn't, moon. However, in gossipgirl's response, she is inherently assuming that: A.) Financial Aid is the Holy Grail for those who are not-wealthy/struggling financially B.) Everyone can attend a top school and C.) Those who attend the schools that I mentioned are not fit to practice law.

You really don't seem to think that schools like Cooley, John Marshall, etc. exploit the hopes and dreams of prospective law students. Many, if not most, of the students attending those schools are totally getting hosed financially. Sure, there are probably people who have done well with a Cooley degree, but my guess is that most of them attended on academic scholarship.

Of course not everyone can attend a top law school. Law school isn't for everyone, nor should it be. There is only room for so many lawyers, and the competition for those spots happens to be pretty rough at the moment. This is not the fault of TLS.

TLS might be harsh and elitist, but law is a pretty elitist profession. IMHO, TLS provides tough love, and has probably counseled many students out of going $100,000+ in the hole for a degree that won't afford them the opportunities they think it will.

My response, albeit it was acerbic, was a retort to, what i believe, is, more or less, her actual opinion of those who attend the aforementioned schools.

Worst sentence ever.

Agree with pretty much everything that was said here. There is always that balance between allowing as much opporutnity to people as possible to pursue their dreams vs keeping a profession respectable and admired.

[ATOIsp07]

No I didn't, moon. However, in gossipgirl's response, she is inherently assuming that: A.) Financial Aid is the Holy Grail for those who are not-wealthy/struggling financially B.) Everyone can attend a top school and C.) Those who attend the schools that I mentioned are not fit to practice law.

You really don't seem to think that schools like Cooley, John Marshall, etc. exploit the hopes and dreams of prospective law students. Many, if not most, of the students attending those schools are totally getting hosed financially. Sure, there are probably people who have done well with a Cooley degree, but my guess is that most of them attended on academic scholarship.

Of course not everyone can attend a top law school. Law school isn't for everyone, nor should it be. There is only room for so many lawyers, and the competition for those spots happens to be pretty rough at the moment. This is not the fault of TLS.

TLS might be harsh and elitist, but law is a pretty elitist profession. IMHO, TLS provides tough love, and has probably counseled many students out of going $100,000+ in the hole for a degree that won't afford them the opportunities they think it will.

My response, albeit it was acerbic, was a retort to, what i believe, is, more or less, her actual opinion of those who attend the aforementioned schools.

Worst sentence ever.

Too dumb to understand?
Get used to sentences like this. That's the type of writing in law school textbooks.

[ATOIsp07]

IMHO, TLS provides tough love, and has probably counseled many students out of going $100,000+ in the hole for a degree that won't afford them the opportunities they think it will.

Are you trying to be a TLS salesman? You think Ken's going to name you a moderator?

Also, you're wrong about the "tough love" bit. TLS is tough but there is certainly no love in TLS. This site is just a bunch of number whores eager to fan their egos by knocking down the law dreams of anonymous posters whom they judge based on numbers and the schools they get into.

It's a shame that deluded people (like yourself) are going to be my peers in the legal profession.

[JusticeHarlan]

Also, you're wrong about the "tough love" bit. TLS is tough but there is certainly no love in TLS.

Somebody has obviously never been to the Fordham thread.

[BigFatPanda]

Lawyers are considered respectable in this country? Wow. The rhetoric "Bull Washing Bastards" and other lawyer slangs indicate the sorry state of lawyer's image in the mind of american people. Not to mention how opposition to Tort reform did wonders to their collective image.

[Richie Tenenbaum]

No I didn't, moon. However, in gossipgirl's response, she is inherently assuming that: A.) Financial Aid is the Holy Grail for those who are not-wealthy/struggling financially B.) Everyone can attend a top school and C.) Those who attend the schools that I mentioned are not fit to practice law.

You really don't seem to think that schools like Cooley, John Marshall, etc. exploit the hopes and dreams of prospective law students. Many, if not most, of the students attending those schools are totally getting hosed financially. Sure, there are probably people who have done well with a Cooley degree, but my guess is that most of them attended on academic scholarship.

Of course not everyone can attend a top law school. Law school isn't for everyone, nor should it be. There is only room for so many lawyers, and the competition for those spots happens to be pretty rough at the moment. This is not the fault of TLS.

TLS might be harsh and elitist, but law is a pretty elitist profession. IMHO, TLS provides tough love, and has probably counseled many students out of going $100,000+ in the hole for a degree that won't afford them the opportunities they think it will.

My response, albeit it was acerbic, was a retort to, what i believe, is, more or less, her actual opinion of those who attend the aforementioned schools.

Worst sentence ever.

Too dumb to understand?
Get used to sentences like this. That's the type of writing in law school textbooks.

Law text books use terrible grammar?

[Nom Sawyer]

Also, you're wrong about the "tough love" bit. TLS is tough but there is certainly no love in TLS.

Somebody has obviously never been to the Fordham thread.

[Veyron]

No I didn't, moon. However, in gossipgirl's response, she is inherently assuming that: A.) Financial Aid is the Holy Grail for those who are not-wealthy/struggling financially B.) Everyone can attend a top school and C.) Those who attend the schools that I mentioned are not fit to practice law.

You really don't seem to think that schools like Cooley, John Marshall, etc. exploit the hopes and dreams of prospective law students. Many, if not most, of the students attending those schools are totally getting hosed financially. Sure, there are probably people who have done well with a Cooley degree, but my guess is that most of them attended on academic scholarship.

Of course not everyone can attend a top law school. Law school isn't for everyone, nor should it be. There is only room for so many lawyers, and the competition for those spots happens to be pretty rough at the moment. This is not the fault of TLS.

TLS might be harsh and elitist, but law is a pretty elitist profession. IMHO, TLS provides tough love, and has probably counseled many students out of going $100,000+ in the hole for a degree that won't afford them the opportunities they think it will.

My response, albeit it was acerbic, was a retort to, what i believe, is, more or less, her actual opinion of those who attend the aforementioned schools.

Worst sentence ever.

Amen preacher-man.

[Perjury]

PEP program is for those who can't score above 143 on the LSAT. Thus Cooley rejected them and are making them take this program to be considered for admission.

god damn...

[Perjury]

This guy got in with a 139 on his LSAT

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/Greg212NJ/jd

Thank goodness for the PEP program.

lord have mercy

[cubswin]

Too dumb to understand?
Get used to sentences like this. That's the type of writing in law school textbooks.

No, I understood. My point was that the sentence was ugly and poorly constructed. Any high school student could explain to you why many of your commas were unnecessary. Perhaps you should hire one as a tutor.

IMHO, TLS provides tough love, and has probably counseled many students out of going $100,000+ in the hole for a degree that won't afford them the opportunities they think it will.

Are you trying to be a TLS salesman? You think Ken's going to name you a moderator?

Also, you're wrong about the "tough love" bit. TLS is tough but there is certainly no love in TLS. This site is just a bunch of number whores eager to fan their egos by knocking down the law dreams of anonymous posters whom they judge based on numbers and the schools they get into.

It's a shame that deluded people (like yourself) are going to be my peers in the legal profession.

Why do you continue posting on TLS if you hate it so?

No, I was not trying to be a TLS salesman, nor was I attempting to get noticed by Ken (or any of the other moderators, for that matter). I wouldn't want a moderator position if it was offered to me. I don't post here nearly enough to warrant one, nor do I intend to increase my TLSing significantly. But I've found TLS to be a valuable source of free information about LSAT prep and the admissions game. Someone like yourself, who has expressed concerns about class in America, should be applauding TLS for making test prep available to everyone free-of-charge. You can rail on and on about how LSATs and the high price of prep classes reproduce class hierarchy, but I think TLS helps level out the playing field a little bit. You'll probably scoff at this, but it's true.

Sure, there are some elitist jerks on here who make themselves feel good by putting down schools ranked lower than the one they will end up attending. Conceding this point does not make any of the lower-ranked schools worth their tuition. John Marshall's tuition is at 37k. If you don't think that most people paying sticker at that school are being exploited, you are the deluded one. You can ramble on and on about elitism and continue making blanket statements about how spoiled everyone at the high ranked schools is, but it doesn't make the 150k worth of debt a Cooley grad took on any less burdensome or his job prospects any better.

This site is just a bunch of number whores eager to fan their egos by knocking down the law dreams of anonymous posters whom they judge based on numbers and the schools they get into.

Schools judge based on numbers too, for the most part. Forgive us for making predictions based on the data available to us. And most of the anonymous posters who have their dreams knocked down ASK for our opinions. Should we be telling 153/2.9s that they have a good chance at NYU? Or that attending Florida A&M at sticker-price is not a risky investment? What exactly would you prefer that we do?

[darknightbegins]

I agree. If that guy with the 2.9 has an engineering degree he is far better off going into the workforce or getting a master's degree. Yeah some could be easier on schools, but I think Cooley is a special case. I even cut Florida A & M some slack, but not Cooley. If you are going to a lower ranked school you should be able to justify it by paying very little. Going to a lower ranked school and being in six figure debt after three years is an insane move.

[Trifles]

Hey, OP, I sent in my seat deposit to start at Cooley in May today (not sure if I'm going yet, but the deadline is the 15th), so I want you to know I'm not just some Cooley hater, but I would really think hard about whether or not you are going to have what it takes to stick law school out and do well enough to justify the cost. About half of the people who start each year fail out of Cooley, and most of them don't have to take the special program because they couldn't get in the normally. Know the odds you are up against, cause if you don't overcome them you are going to waste a lot of money.

[T14_Scholly]

If that guy with the 2.9 has an engineering degree he is far better off going into the workforce or getting a master's degree.

That would only be true if, like many of the people who go to top law schools, his main reason for attending law school is that he's made a cost/benefit analysis and decided that this is his quickest route to earning a lot of money.

Don't deny it.

[darknightbegins]

If that guy with the 2.9 has an engineering degree he is far better off going into the workforce or getting a master's degree.

That would only be true if, like many of the people who go to top law schools, his main reason for attending law school is that he's made a cost/benefit analysis and decided that this is his quickest route to earning a lot of money.

Don't deny it.

I'll be the first to admit money isn't the only reason, or even the main reason, why I want to go to law school. But to not look at your finances and say "hey is this a wise decision for me 5, 10, 20 years from now? I want to pursue my dreams but I want to be realistic about it to." just seems blindly idealistic.