Harvard c/o 2016 Applicants (2012-2013) Forum

[edamame]

For those of you who did go to mid tier large public schools, im curious why you did so? If you did well enough on the lsat to be considered for harvard law then you had to crush the SAT, and you must not be total slackers so AP classes wouldnt have ben very tough.

Two fold: First, 33ACT/1420 SAT 4.0 doesn't get what you might think. I did only take one AP class my junior year and made a two, although I had a broken dominant arm (I took a ton senior year and made fours and fives, but it's to late by then). Dinged at HY Duke G'town WL @BC (lol) That left Vanderbilt at sticker or [big state school squarely in the mid tier] for basically free.

Second, my parents told me they would either help pay for UG or Grad school. I had no clue what I wanted to do at 17. I didn't under Vanderbilt but me on a better life track than [BSSSITMT] so I chose the honors college at [BSSSITMT] got to register before seniors, had the best teachers, small class sizes, and a quality of discourse in class that was decent because they were honors classes.

It worked out. But if I'd made a 3.6 in college (and let's be clear I had no clue how important a 4.0 was in college) I'd be screwed right now.

There is also momentum from the supply end, i.e. kids from top schools test better so its more likely they would make up a larger % of the class at top LS.

Some but enough to account for all of this. Think about this 62K is rough the enrollment of all the Ivies. Ohio State has 40K by itself. One school.

Also, I came from a very rural state (nowhere near where Sabanist and wert3813 go to school), so that might have affected what I could do, where I could go for college. (I was treated as in-state at my current institution because a parent works in my undergrad's state). In general, my counselors and teachers in high school were not very supportive. Therefore, I had lackluster recommendations most likely. Also, people in my home state aren't very appreciative of those who are successful. So even though I was a good student in high school, I never got "all the help I needed to achieve my dreams," per se. Even now, when I mentioned my HLS acceptance on Facebook, very few people from my hometown commented or liked the status. On the other hand, a ton of college acquaintances / friends did.

In undergrad, I could seek much, much better recommendations. Also, I feel that my school is much more appreciative of students' successes. We're encouraged to take challenging classes, join programs, do research, intern, etc. I feel that my current institution is much more appreciative and proud of my grad school acceptances than I expected.

[wert3813]

For those of you who did go to mid tier large public schools, im curious why you did so? If you did well enough on the lsat to be considered for harvard law then you had to crush the SAT, and you must not be total slackers so AP classes wouldnt have ben very tough. There is also momentum from the supply end, i.e. kids from top schools test better so its more likely they would make up a larger % of the class at top LS.

I think a lot of it was the environment I grew up in. Rural Georgia doesn't exactly have a lot of Ivy grads floating around, encouraging kids to shoot for the stars. My high school has a 40% attrition rate from 9th grade to graduation; my sister was one of the dropouts. Graduating was a huge success in my hometown, so going to a big state school was cause for a parade.
If I'd known my SAT score had Ivy potential, I might have applied. But I figured I'd be going up against thousands of 2400s and saw no point. I was happy with what I got - a full tuition scholly to my UG - so I took that.
Sometimes I wonder what if, but I've had a good time.

so I chose the honors college at [BSSSITMT] got to register before seniors, had the best teachers, small class sizes, and a quality of discourse in class that was decent because they were honors classes.

This was also the case for me.
Wert, you and I may need to have a talk

My family is a little better of than yours and my city bigger, but yeah similar story. Your "what if" should be were your parents poor enough that you could have gotten free ivy tuition. They are pretty generous for UG. As excited as I am to have classes with student of similar abilities to me I loved my UG and wouldn't trade it for the world.

Sabinist. I just reread this and realized I stereotyped your family as poor, which you never actually said. My apologies.

[sabanist]

Sabanist, did you see this article already?

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/17/educa ... es.html?hp

Also in this op-ed someone talks about a similar experience:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/29/opini ... ml?hp&_r=0

Those are pretty much exactly like my experience. I never even knew it was a door that could be open to me. It makes me kind of sad in retrospect. I guess I should have done more research, but I was a very apathetic 17 year old.

My family is a little better of than yours and my city bigger, but yeah similar story. Your "what if" should be were your parents poor enough that you could have gotten free ivy tuition. They are pretty generous for UG. As excited as I am to have classes with student of similar abilities to me I loved my UG and wouldn't trade it for the world.

Sabinist. I just reread this and realized I stereotyped your family as poor, which you never actually said. My apologies.

No big deal at all. We were and are completely broke, and I've talked about it pretty openly on TLS, so it's not a wrong assumption to make.
The need-based what if is a big one too. I had to take out significant COL loans, since I've basically been on my own financially since I set foot in my dorm room, so it's not like I went here entirely for free. I wonder if I might have had similar debt for a better degree. It's all pretty pointless now, though. Like I said, I've enjoyed my experience.

[edamame]

Sabanist, did you see this article already?

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/17/educa ... es.html?hp

Also in this op-ed someone talks about a similar experience:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/29/opini ... ml?hp&_r=0

Those are pretty much exactly like my experience. I never even knew it was a door that could be open to me. It makes me kind of sad in retrospect. I guess I should have done more research, but I was a very apathetic 17 year old.

My family is a little better of than yours and my city bigger, but yeah similar story. Your "what if" should be were your parents poor enough that you could have gotten free ivy tuition. They are pretty generous for UG. As excited as I am to have classes with student of similar abilities to me I loved my UG and wouldn't trade it for the world.

Sabinist. I just reread this and realized I stereotyped your family as poor, which you never actually said. My apologies.

No big deal at all. We were and are completely broke, and I've talked about it pretty openly on TLS, so it's not a wrong assumption to make.
The need-based what if is a big one too. I had to take out significant COL loans, since I've basically been on my own financially since I set foot in my dorm room, so it's not like I went here entirely for free. I wonder if I might have had similar debt for a better degree. It's all pretty pointless now, though. Like I said, I've enjoyed my experience.

+1. There's nothing I would give up for my degree from a big state school. I met my boyfriend, amazing professors, and amazing classmates here. And got to take seminars in the Honors College. I hope I can choose a law school that will give me similar experiences (except for the boyfriend, of course, lol).

[HankBashir]

For those of you who did go to mid tier large public schools, im curious why you did so? If you did well enough on the lsat to be considered for harvard law then you had to crush the SAT, and you must not be total slackers so AP classes wouldnt have ben very tough. There is also momentum from the supply end, i.e. kids from top schools test better so its more likely they would make up a larger % of the class at top LS.

I actually was admitted to 3 of the T5 schools in the country with solid scholarships and I started my freshman year at one of theml, but due to a wide variety of issues (which I feel is the reason I haven't gotten a JS1 yet) I ended up transferring to my state's flagship school and finishing there.

EDIT: sabanist, I think you and I might have the same alma mater.

[TripTrip]

I know I'm a little late to this party, but fwiw I never took the SAT or the ACT. I started at a community college at 16 and just finished UG wherever the credits transferred easily. That ended up being a no-name state university. Didn't really know I had law school potential until I took the LSAT and came to TLS.

[jbagelboy]

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[wert3813]

Just for the record, I really didn't mean to be insulting to anyone or their education. I truly apologize if my comment came off that way. It just seemed interesting to me that so many people who wanted to attend Ivy/prestige league law schools didn't feel the same way going into UG.

Obviously cost was a consideration for undergrad. I could not have attended my private college if it were not for some generous institutional scholarships and the limited fund my grandparents set up for me before their deaths.

I sense that the rural/suburban/urban divide is often a factor, as well as the strength of the local schools. I went to a huge public HS, but it was highly competitive -- although most kids ended up at Berkeley, UCLA, UCSD and UC Irvine, the big state schools in CA. I searched for a smaller environment so the liberal arts model felt more comfortable.

I think those of you who went to a slightly more manageable undergrad and got much closer to 4.0 than me may have made the right call when compared to my 3.7x, and the grade deflation in my UG department (which was full of HS valedictorians and Phillips Exeter/Choate/Eton kids) didn't help. Most of you got JS1's and I may never.

So again, meant no disrespect.

I wasn't offended in the least.

On another note: I think it is really hard to speculate about relative difficulty of schools. On average Ivies give out higher grades than state schools. Smarter students or grade inflation. Heck even within majors (not talking science v. crim. justice here) at the same school some students can have much tougher classes than others.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505145_162- ... st-grades/

[FlowBro]

Anybody know how much longer I can expect to wait before hearing anything from HLS? Mid-Feb Complete...(Yes, I know!)

[d330]

I know I'm a little late to this party, but fwiw I never took the SAT or the ACT. I started at a community college at 16 and just finished UG wherever the credits transferred easily. That ended up being a no-name state university. Didn't really know I had law school potential until I took the LSAT and came to TLS.

Also late to the party, but I also didn't take any of those tests. Went to a community college and transferred to the school that would pay me to go there. As a kid I had no imagination for a Harvard, and as an adult it made very little sense to pay for an Ivy.

[04102014]

I'm mainly posting this because I don't want to be at 666 posts. Satan and all.

Nobody in my family had ever been to college, and we literally had no idea how the financial aid process worked (adviser in high school wasn't very helpful). I went to community college (paid for while working full time) and a state school (full scholarship + working full time for living expenses) because it was something I could understand. Even now with law school, the loan process is confusing to me.

So, Ivys were never even in the discussion.

[d330]

I'm mainly posting this because I don't want to be at 666 posts. Satan and all.

Nobody in my family had ever been to college, and we literally had no idea how the financial aid process worked (adviser in high school wasn't very helpful). I went to community college (paid for while working full time) and a state school (full scholarship + working full time for living expenses) because it was something I could understand. Even now with law school, the loan process is confusing to me.

So, Ivys were never even in the discussion.

We need to just go ahead and start a "we went to community college" thread. I think that there is this perception that where you begin has everything to do with your intellectual ability. You can figure out the loan process though - it is confusing. I've found the financial aid offices really helpful in breaking things down.

[siredwrdross]

I think that, while you all are correct that "UG is irrelevant" is ultimately incorrect, I would still say "UG is the least of your worries." I go to a tiny liberal arts school that no one has heard of, has only existed for twelve years, and doesn't even have regional accreditation. Between 5-15 people apply to law school from here every year and, for the past five years, at least one has gotten into HYS (usually two or three) and almost all get into the Top 10. Solid LSAT, GPA, softs, and recommendations will, time and time again, make up for an unknown UG. It seems like the ivies probably just do a better job of putting their students in a position to create this kind of application. Beyond that, UG is probably the lowest of the low in terms of tie-breaking otherwise identical applicants.

[04102014]

I think that, while you all are correct that "UG is irrelevant" is ultimately incorrect, I would still say "UG is the least of your worries." I go to a tiny liberal arts school that no one has heard of, has only existed for twelve years, and doesn't even have regional accreditation. Between 5-15 people apply to law school from here every year and, for the past five years, at least one has gotten into HYS (usually two or three) and almost all get into the Top 10. Solid LSAT, GPA, softs, and recommendations will, time and time again, make up for an unknown UG. It seems like the ivies probably just do a better job of putting their students in a position to create this kind of application. Beyond that, UG is probably the lowest of the low in terms of tie-breaking otherwise identical applicants.

You also have to factor in that statistically students who attend ivies score higher on the LSAT, so it only makes sense that they're so represented in the top schools.

[siredwrdross]

I think that, while you all are correct that "UG is irrelevant" is ultimately incorrect, I would still say "UG is the least of your worries." I go to a tiny liberal arts school that no one has heard of, has only existed for twelve years, and doesn't even have regional accreditation. Between 5-15 people apply to law school from here every year and, for the past five years, at least one has gotten into HYS (usually two or three) and almost all get into the Top 10. Solid LSAT, GPA, softs, and recommendations will, time and time again, make up for an unknown UG. It seems like the ivies probably just do a better job of putting their students in a position to create this kind of application. Beyond that, UG is probably the lowest of the low in terms of tie-breaking otherwise identical applicants.

You also have to factor in that statistically students who attend ivies score higher on the LSAT, so it only makes sense that they're so represented in the top schools.

Absolutely.

[04102014]

I think that, while you all are correct that "UG is irrelevant" is ultimately incorrect, I would still say "UG is the least of your worries." I go to a tiny liberal arts school that no one has heard of, has only existed for twelve years, and doesn't even have regional accreditation. Between 5-15 people apply to law school from here every year and, for the past five years, at least one has gotten into HYS (usually two or three) and almost all get into the Top 10. Solid LSAT, GPA, softs, and recommendations will, time and time again, make up for an unknown UG. It seems like the ivies probably just do a better job of putting their students in a position to create this kind of application. Beyond that, UG is probably the lowest of the low in terms of tie-breaking otherwise identical applicants.

You also have to factor in that statistically students who attend ivies score higher on the LSAT, so it only makes sense that they're so represented in the top schools.

Absolutely.

With my school's 145 average, it's not surprising that we've only had few grads go to HLS.

[04102014]

I think that, while you all are correct that "UG is irrelevant" is ultimately incorrect, I would still say "UG is the least of your worries." I go to a tiny liberal arts school that no one has heard of, has only existed for twelve years, and doesn't even have regional accreditation. Between 5-15 people apply to law school from here every year and, for the past five years, at least one has gotten into HYS (usually two or three) and almost all get into the Top 10. Solid LSAT, GPA, softs, and recommendations will, time and time again, make up for an unknown UG. It seems like the ivies probably just do a better job of putting their students in a position to create this kind of application. Beyond that, UG is probably the lowest of the low in terms of tie-breaking otherwise identical applicants.

You also have to factor in that statistically students who attend ivies score higher on the LSAT, so it only makes sense that they're so represented in the top schools.

Absolutely.

Also, your avatar is the greatest thing on this site. Particularly because you say such thoughtful things.

[ph5354a]

I've thoroughly enjoyed this conversation, thanks everyone.

I will add my two cents that it seems like some of you had very helpful UG pre-law advisers that helped you prepare for the process, or at least had some kind of background knowledge of how your classmates have fared. My adviser was so laughably unhelpful; it was clear she didn't understand how rolling admissions worked; when I was compiling my list of schools, she focused primarily on my GPA without listening to what I was PTing on the LSAT, so she said there was "A chance I could get into NYU, but it wasn't likely" (HAH) and tried to convince me to apply to UMD, and other such jackassery. Luckily, I wasn't counting on her much.

I doubt my UG has had any impact on my outcomes thus far, but I chose it over other more prestigious schools for the sole reason that I get a large scholarship and I was deathly afraid of debt. I do wonder if I would be better off right now having gone to a better school, but knowing that would mean six figures of UG debt, I'm pretty sure I made the right decision.

[read2465]

.

[04102014]

I've thoroughly enjoyed this conversation, thanks everyone.

I will add my two cents that it seems like some of you had very helpful UG pre-law advisers that helped you prepare for the process, or at least had some kind of background knowledge of how your classmates have fared. My adviser was so laughably unhelpful; it was clear she didn't understand how rolling admissions worked; when I was compiling my list of schools, she focused primarily on my GPA without listening to what I was PTing on the LSAT, so she said there was "A chance I could get into NYU, but it wasn't likely" (HAH) and tried to convince me to apply to UMD, and other such jackassery. Luckily, I wasn't counting on her much.

I doubt my UG has had any impact on my outcomes thus far, but I chose it over other more prestigious schools for the sole reason that I get a large scholarship and I was deathly afraid of debt. I do wonder if I would be better off right now having gone to a better school, but knowing that would mean six figures of UG debt, I'm pretty sure I made the right decision.

I obviously can't speak to the experiences of people on this site, but I have a ton of friends who went into heavy debt for their undergraduate degrees, and every one of them tells me that they wish they had done what I did (state school, minimize debt). I think particularly where (most) undergrad degrees have become so common--whereas a few decades ago going to college wasn't something everyone felt that they had to do--it doesn't make sense to get into significant debt for something that won't make you stand out. Most well-paying jobs now require a grad degree (there are obviously exceptions), so I've always told myself that I would try to hold off on debt until I got to that level. I'll let you know how that works out for me in a few years.

[Cicero76]

I went to the University of Florida, a large public institution by any measure. I only applied to Yale and UF for undergrad--I was 18, not that interested in the application process, and generally apathetic. UF was fantastically cheap, and here I am four years later and it doesn't seem to have hurt me. We have five students from here who have gotten into HLS so far--we all went out for coffee yesterday, in fact.

[dnptan]

At my school (BU) most people go to grad school as a backup in case they don't find a job. I think that the expectations of our generation with regards to A) finding a job and B) going to grad school a "back up" is indicative of how entitled we all are.

As an engineer, I was fortunate enough to find a decent job right out of college. But ever since I turned my attention towards law, people automatically assume that I'm an unemployed liberal arts major. I find it really sad that when you mention grad school, people think you just can't find a job.

On the flip side, mention you applied to HYS and the conversation gets uncomfortable. Fellow TLSers - do you have similar experiences with this? Sometimes I feel that some people are so competitive right after college that they need to maintain an image of being better off than their peers.

[zidane13]

Wow, this was really cool to read. No knocks on Yale or anything, but I'm really looking forward to having such a diverse group of classmates. A HLS alum I talked to before my JS1 said that his favorite thing about HLS is how you constantly run into people who have vastly different perspectives than yours. Can't wait.

[wannabelawstudent]

What going on over here bros?

[vzapana]

I went to the University of Florida, a large public institution by any measure. I only applied to Yale and UF for undergrad--I was 18, not that interested in the application process, and generally apathetic. UF was fantastically cheap, and here I am four years later and it doesn't seem to have hurt me. We have five students from here who have gotten into HLS so far--we all went out for coffee yesterday, in fact.

on that note, i was deciding between HYP and a few state schools. HYP each gave me significant financial aid packages, so it was cheaper to go to any of those Ivies than it was to go to a state school. people generally write off private schools because of the expense, but i found financial aid programs at the top to be truly excellent.