WUSTL c/o 2017 Applicants (2013-2014 Cycle) Forum

[njdevils2626]

+1. Super splitter and wasn't called. Also, I feel like being a Canadian I'd be the first guy they would call and be like "hey, have you looked into how hard it is to get a job without being a citizen? Maybe you should stay in Canada"

Ah, the 'ol "stay where you are, syrup jockey."

I'm still not sure why you're a Devils fan.

The TL;DR version of the story is that watching Martin Brodeur play was what made me fall in love with hockey as a kid. I quickly became a Brodeur fan, and a Devils fan soon thereafter. Marty will likely retire this offseason or next, but I'm a Devils fan for life

You're Canadian. How did anything have to make you fall in love with hockey? I thought it was bred into you.

That's cool, though. I hate most of the Canadian teams (lookin' at you, Habs) anyway.

I always enjoyed hockey, but never understood the mad passion of most Habs fans until watching Brodeur brought out the same in me. Though as a Montrealer with the Devils eliminated already, it feels wrong for me not to cheer for them now at least

[Ricky-Bobby]

I always enjoyed hockey, but never understood the mad passion of most Habs fans until watching Brodeur brought out the same in me. Though as a Montrealer with the Devils eliminated already, it feels wrong for me not to cheer for them now at least

Honestly, as much as I hate LA, Montreal, and New York, any of them winning Stanley would be infinitely better than Chicago. I hate the Hawks like normal people hate Nazis.

Pulling for the Rangers, though. I hate them the least.

ETA: I can't believe Brodeur is 42. That makes me feel old.

[Banshee]

I always enjoyed hockey, but never understood the mad passion of most Habs fans until watching Brodeur brought out the same in me. Though as a Montrealer with the Devils eliminated already, it feels wrong for me not to cheer for them now at least

Honestly, as much as I hate LA, Montreal, and New York, any of them winning Stanley would be infinitely better than Chicago. I hate the Hawks like normal people hate Nazis.

Pulling for the Rangers, though. I hate them the least.

ETA: I can't believe Brodeur is 42. That makes me feel old.

Go Kings Go!

[KanyeShrug]

I always enjoyed hockey, but never understood the mad passion of most Habs fans until watching Brodeur brought out the same in me. Though as a Montrealer with the Devils eliminated already, it feels wrong for me not to cheer for them now at least

Honestly, as much as I hate LA, Montreal, and New York, any of them winning Stanley would be infinitely better than Chicago. I hate the Hawks like normal people hate Nazis.

Pulling for the Rangers, though. I hate them the least.

ETA: I can't believe Brodeur is 42. That makes me feel old.

Go Kings Go!

Red Wings

[Jmart082]

This situation with the phone call seems pretty preemptive on the part of adcomm. Even if this was an appropriate course of action to trim numbers, it isn't like June isn't already around the corner and the numbers aren't going to fluctuate enormously. A lot will happen in the coming month, and it seems like some serious jumping of the gun took place, lol. But yeah, this certainly does bode onerously for people still on the wait list, assuming that said fluctuation isn't as drastic as it could be.

[chuckbass]

Hopefully with them jumping the gun plus the second deposit, the class will end up below 200 again

[Jmart082]

Hopefully with them jumping the gun plus the second deposit, the class will end up below 200 again

Yeah, I think it will. I know there was a very similar situation with Illinois' entering class, and as far as I know, they continued to pick up new applicants, with generous amounts of scholarship money, too.

[DoveBodyWash]

i've gotten a few PM's about this phone call situation (i haven't been keeping up with the thread), so i'll just post my thoughts here

Our adcomm has always intended to net a bigger 1L class than my class, apparently around 200. To be honest I'm surprised they're trying to prevent a class of 240+, because they could definitely use the revenue.

I'm a little confused about the whole "go somewhere else for 1L and transfer here" option, but the deferral option doesn't seem like a bad opportunity at all, especially since it comes with a guaranteed scholarship increase.

It should be notable that the adcomm is trying to control class size instead of just whoring for revenue, which is what a lot of schools are doing. Make no mistake, WUSTL lost a ton of money with my class. They graduated most profitable class (Class of 2013, large class with minimal scholarship) at the same time that they enrolled the least profitable (Class of 2016, tiny class with huge scholarships).

But this is honestly better...smaller class size will help with your job prospects. The adcomm is essentially forfeiting much needed revenue to preserve the better job prospects for you guys. Of course whether it works or not will depend on how many applicants accept their offer.

I don't think a class of 240-250 would be catastrophic for your employment opportunities, but smaller is better in this economy.

Re: WL candidates
All is not lost. The admissions process is about balancing (1) class size (2) revenue (3) medians. They're all important. Just because they hit the "limit" on class size doesn't mean they're just going to stop and throw medians and revenue out the window. Depending on how many admits take their offer or defect for another school or decide to sit out the cycle altogether, the class size situation may not hurt you significantly.

[njdevils2626]

But this is honestly better...smaller class size will help with your job prospects. The adcomm is essentially forfeiting much needed revenue to preserve the better job prospects for you guys. Of course whether it works or not will depend on how many applicants accept their offer.

This is what I was thinking too... Thanks for the input cuse! Always appreciated

[chuckbass]

Yea the only thing I was worried about was the class size getting too big. 200-210 seems fine but I really wouldn't want much bigger than that.

Also for those on the WL, considering someone got in yesterday, I definitely don't think all hope is lost.

[rahulg91]

Make no mistake, WUSTL lost a ton of money with my class. They graduated most profitable class (Class of 2013, large class with minimal scholarship) at the same time that they enrolled the least profitable (Class of 2016, tiny class with huge scholarships).

How late into the summer were people getting scholly bumps for the c/o 2016? And how significant were the increases? (Thanks for the insight btw!)

[njdevils2626]

Question for Cuse/Sublime/Other rando 1L's who want to chime in:

Regarding study groups, are these normally set up solely within your own section or do people study with those from other sections as well? I know that every teacher is different, but I fell like, at least for 1L, the doctrinal courses that we are all going to be taking must be similar enough in nature that it wouldn't be a huge impediment but really who am I to know any better. So what was your experiences with these groups and how they were formed?

[taker_of_lsats]

Question for Cuse/Sublime/Other rando 1L's who want to chime in:

Regarding study groups, are these normally set up solely within your own section or do people study with those from other sections as well? I know that every teacher is different, but I fell like, at least for 1L, the doctrinal courses that we are all going to be taking must be similar enough in nature that it wouldn't be a huge impediment but really who am I to know any better. So what was your experiences with these groups and how they were formed?

It seems like the conventional wisdom, and the advice of every current student on this forum, is that every professor is different, and you must tailor you answers to the instructor in question. Given that, it sounds like having study groups made of people preparing for different exams would only be an impediment to scoring well.

[DoveBodyWash]

are these normally set up solely within your own section or do people study with those from other sections as well?

The most effective study group is formed of people who are taking your classes with your professors. This doesn't have to be ONLY your section kids though, because you're taking two "super section" classes, someone from a different section might have your professor with you.

In the beginning of the fall semester most kids create their study groups based on who they're friends with, which usually includes a patchwork of kids across different sections who have different professors. This almost never works. They usually fall apart. As the semester progresses everyone will start to branch off as their professors teach different elements of the law and assign different assignments/readings.

So what was your experiences with these groups and how they were formed?

I ran my study group like the fucking russian mob. And i don't apologize for it. We were effective as fuck. But it was honestly just because we got lucky with the people.

To preface this, most of the initial study groups fizzle out. It's similar to your first group of friends in college. Most people bounce around until they find a group.

General comments
1. Don't make study groups based on your friends. You want driven/humble/competent people. These people may not necessarily be the people you got drunk with during orientation (or even your TLS friends). You will eventually end up becoming great friends (hopefully), but that shouldn't be the basis for who comprises it.
2. Do not compete within your study group. You are one fucking unit. You compete against everyone else, not within your group. The goal is to increase the total learning/knowledge in your study group. Don't hold anything back. If someone in your study group does better than you, then it's a win for everyone.
3. Don't give up before you start. You don't want defeatists. The first semester of law school, no one has grades. You are simultaneously first and last in your class (think schrodinger's cat). Prepare like you are going to be the bottom, but your goal should be to reach the top. Don't be one of those kids that assume they're not smart enough to be top of the class. Don't quit before you start just because you don't wanna "get your hopes up". Get your hopes up, and your diligence will follow. You want people who aren't scared of aiming to be the best. If you get discouraged, encourage each other. Remember you are one unit.
4. Keep it small. There were moments where classmates wanted to work with us and we had to say no (this job usually fell to me...whatever no apologies). Law school is a great place to meet friends and colleagues. But it is a professional school. You are there are to achieve a goal. Each member needs to add value. My group was 4. I've seen groups up to 6-7 that were effective. My section tried to have a "section study group" every week that included...anyone from our section who wanted to join...ended up being like 20 kids. Only met twice before falling apart.

4. Find resources and create a strategy
This one is bolded on its own because of how important it is. If you take 5 super athletes and tell them to play a game they don't know how to play, they will suck despite their natural ability. Same goes for 1L study groups. You need to have a game plan, you need to KNOW what to do and what to avoid. My primary role in my study group was amassing resources in the form of 2L/3L mentors, outlines, practice tests. We had double the practice tests, we had outlines from students who had killed the class in the past, and we knew what each professor liked and disliked within the first month of each term. We built our schedule and strategy around those things. The "end goal" for every class with any professor is always the same. Apply the law as quickly and as thoroughly as you can.

But how you achieve that goal changes with the subject/prof. It takes practice. The best way to build speed and accuracy and filling knowledge gaps is to take practice tests with a group and to discuss them thoroughly.

If i seem harsh...it's because I am. But no one can argue with our results. We met regularly from September until our last final in May. All of us got more A's than B's...and half of us still don't have anything lower than an A- on our transcript. It's not because we're geniuses. It's because we were humble enough to admit when we were wrong, disciplined enough to stick to a schedule, and flexible enough to adjust our methods/timing when it seemed like it wasn't working.

[Dredd_2017]

BRB getting in time machine to enroll last year and be in Cuse's study group

Thanks for the advice cuse, I admit I'm quite wary of the notion of study groups as in the past my experience hasn't been great. They're always fun, but seldom very useful for many of the reasons you state (Friends of varying diligence, no clear plan of attack, too large). I think the point regarding defeatism is highly relevant as well, although you can joke it away most of the time that attitude can spread rapidly during highly stressful periods. Forming up a small study group likes yours seems like the only credited way of doing it, otherwise going solo is probably much more efficient even though you miss out on going over practice tests with other students.

As an aside I found your dual-role as executioner for wannabe group members hilarious when juxtaposed with the task of buddying up to 2L/3L's. Your favorite Game of Thrones character is littlefinger isn't it

Edit: There are plenty of TLS'ers attending WUSTL, and I'm sure many of us will be in the same section / have the same profs, just sayin...

[Banshee]

BRB getting in time machine to enroll last year and be in Cuse's study group

Thanks for the advice cuse, I admit I'm quite wary of the notion of study groups as in the past my experience hasn't been great. They're always fun, but seldom very useful for many of the reasons you state (Friends of varying diligence, no clear plan of attack, too large). I think the point regarding defeatism is highly relevant as well, although you can joke it away most of the time that attitude can spread rapidly during highly stressful periods. Forming up a small study group likes yours seems like the only credited way of doing it, otherwise going solo is probably much more efficient even though you miss out on going over practice tests with other students.

As an aside I found your dual-role as executioner for wannabe group members hilarious when juxtaposed with the task of buddying up to 2L/3L's. Your favorite Game of Thrones character is littlefinger isn't it

Edit: There are plenty of TLS'ers attending WUSTL, and I'm sure many of us will be in the same section / have the same profs, just sayin...

+1 to all of this and to all of Cuse's advice/info

And I am completely on board for Russian Mob Study Group Part II come the Fall! See me for sign-ups!

Cuse, can you give a little more insight on the best way to actually form a group. Or even different methods that can be used. I'm all about efficiency so walking up to some guy and saying "Hey you seem smart and not a douche, wanna be study buddies?" seems like rolling dice...

[njdevils2626]

Wow! Thanks a lot, Cuse, this was exactly the kind of insight I was hoping to get, much appreciated. I owe you like a case of beer or something for all the help you've given us

[DoveBodyWash]

Cuse, can you give a little more insight on the best way to actually form a group. Or even different methods that can be used. I'm all about efficiency so walking up to some guy and saying "Hey you seem smart and not a douche, wanna be study buddies?" seems like rolling dice...

yeah it really depends on the person/situation. I wasn't going around auditioning people or just going up to them randomly in the hallways and such.

I would say don't fall into the trap of being too enthusiastic, which most new 1Ls are wont to do. The whole "okay we're all best friends, now we're going to be this super official study group and we're all going to work together yay" enthusiasm is great, but it's rarely effective. There's a lot of hype in 1L. Everyone will be rushing to brief, to take a practice test, do E&E's, form study groups. Don't fall into it. Hold back and don't be over eager. Taking a practice test in september is much less effective than in November (once you've actually learned the law), even if it's the same test. Same thing here. Forming a study group during orientation isn't as effective as forming one in late september (once you've actually gotten to know your section mates).

Be patient. There's literally nothing to actually study in the first few weeks of school. So don't rush to form a study group. You'll meet, realize there's nothing to do, and inevitably take it less seriously (since there's nothing to do at first).

I wasn't actually planning on being in a study group. As a person I'm much more of a "work alone" type than a "yay group project" type.

I'll just go through and explain how i met the other 3 people.

Guy 1: Was friend from undergrad. Happened to be placed in the same section. I hadn't planned on being in an official study group with him, but assumed that we would naturally end up working together one way or another since we knew each other and were comfortable around each other.

Girl 1: Became friends with her during the nightly orientation bar outings. I didn't know if she was smart or driven, and frankly i didn't care. She was just so nice that I thought to myself "if I'm going to be working long hours, i'd rather be working with someone like her." She ended up being very smart/diligent..and basically the reason why i didn't fail Property.

Guy 2: Was roommates with one of my TLS friends, so I knew who he was, but had never talked to him or anything. I was studying by myself at school and i saw him and we sat together and talked about implied contracts, and ran into some confusion. We tried to work it out and left at the end of the night. In a few hours I had an email in my inbox. Apparently he had gone home, looked up the material we were confused about, and then emailed me what he found. I didn't actually know or care whether what he found was accurate, my only reaction was "wow this dude is actually proactive"

So i didn't go around and recruit people or anything. When you're making friends, you don't go aroudn interviewing people. You just kind of find each other. Same thing here. Pay attention to how your peers study/behave. Consider whether you'd be happy working long hours with them. and pay attention to how responsible/proactive they are.

I found all 3 of my peers in different ways, and it worked out great. Once you have a good group of people, the only thing left to do is to be open with the fact that you're a group. Once I found my people, i set up a Google drive to share documents/tests/outlines. Some of them weren't as "in the know" about legal hiring or how the game worked, so i told them how important 1L grades were, how BigLaw hiring worked etc...I showed them all the practice exams I had accumulated, and any time a mentor told me something relevant or shared an outline with me, I shared with them too. We talked regularly in a group FB chat (not completely about law school stuff) and we used iCal/Google Calendar to make our group schedules. Sometimes our meetings weren't effective, cuz there wasn't much to do. Sometimes we were completely on point. The important thing to remember is that this is an evolving process. Don't get discouraged because you got distracted once or something.

Pro tip 1: When you eventually debate practice exams/the law, different people will apply the law differently. Maybe your groupmate thinks the fact pattern includes a conspiracy charge, maybe you don't and think it should be solicitation. To resolve disputes about the actual law, just go ask your professor. When different people see different issues, the credited reaction is to just incorporate their analysis into yours. Who cares whether a fact pattern only includes one charge or another? Just apply both. You never know where you can get points. The most helpful part about my study group wasn't necessarily that we were correcting each other. It's that each of us spotted issues that the rest of us didn't consider at ALL. The more issues you harvest, the more analysis you'll write, and the more points you'll get. If you don't have time to apply everything, then consider which issues will generate the most points and prioritize those. In torts for Tamanaha, negligence will always generate more points than assault/battery. For our torts final my study group actually sat down and organized all the torts in the order of their point value. We memorized it. On the exam we read this long fact pattern that had more issues that could possibly be completed in 3 hours, and we prioritized all the high value torts first. These are the strategic exercises that you can do with your group that will yield very real benefits on exam day.

Protip 2: Keep in touch with your TLS friends who went to other schools. They're great resources later for when you need practice tests from other schools in case you lack exams written by your professor.

[Jmart082]

Damn. Cuse be droppin' jewels like his name is Jared.

[Banshee]

Cuse, I know we say it all the time, but you're amazing and we all truly appreciate your advice, wisdom, and transparency!!!

Many rounds of drinks are coming your way!

Edited.

[chuckbass]

Curse, I know we say it all the time, but you're amazing and we all truly appreciate your advice, wisdom, and transparency!!!

Many rounds of drinks are coming your way!

[Banshee]

Curse, I know we say it all the time, but you're amazing and we all truly appreciate your advice, wisdom, and transparency!!!

Many rounds of drinks are coming your way!

God Damn Autocorrect!!

[Attax]

Dear Cuse,

Wanna join my study group?

[bound]

Officially withdrawn, my WUSTLUT babes


But in other news: I am officially a paralegal at a V100 in Dallas Definitely reapplying next year!!

[ManoftheHour]

Officially withdrawn, my WUSTLUT babes


But in other news: I am officially a paralegal at a V100 in Dallas Definitely reapplying next year!!

So jealous. I wish I could retake. F@#$ all these people saying, "TTTT or TTTT? Retake is not an option." I'd buy that retake from them for $1,000.