Harvard 2010! Forum

[DoubleChecks]

rofl at this thread. In crackberry's defense, though, Stanford has the lowest acceptance rate of any undergrad. At least west of the Mississippi, Stanford is considered every bit as good as HYP. I wouldn't say Berkeley is on that level as far as lay prestige goes, but it is definitely not far behind. If you're going to include grad school and actually look at rankings, I'm not sure I'd even include Yale, and I'd just say Stanford and Berkeley are the best overall schools.

im a bit confused -- why is berkeley in this overall best 3 trinity? lol i can see the argument made for H, S, Chicago, etc., but i just dont see it for berkeley -- i mean, the ugrad there (while not the most important factor, is still a major factor given it has no med school as crack said) isnt even in the same league as S or H in selectivity (assuming you're from cali)

I would not put Berkeley in the same league as HYPS (or a host of other privates) for undergrad education. What gives Berkeley such global renown is the strength of its graduate programs and its research contributions.

yeah sure i know Berkeley would be up there, but i would think it is more like around UPenn, Chicago, etc. i just dont see why it'd be HSB overall and not just, iunno, HS lol.

[Kronk]

rofl at this thread. In crackberry's defense, though, Stanford has the lowest acceptance rate of any undergrad. At least west of the Mississippi, Stanford is considered every bit as good as HYP. I wouldn't say Berkeley is on that level as far as lay prestige goes, but it is definitely not far behind. If you're going to include grad school and actually look at rankings, I'm not sure I'd even include Yale, and I'd just say Stanford and Berkeley are the best overall schools.

im a bit confused -- why is berkeley in this overall best 3 trinity? lol i can see the argument made for H, S, Chicago, etc., but i just dont see it for berkeley -- i mean, the ugrad there (while not the most important factor, is still a major factor given it has no med school as crack said) isnt even in the same league as S or H in selectivity (assuming you're from cali)

Berkeley--

Law - 6th
Business - 7th
Education - 7th
Engineering - 3rd
Medical - 5th (UC-San Francisco)
Average: 5.6
Sciences - Berkeley ties or ranks higher than Chicago, Yale, and Harvard for any science
Social Sciences - Berkeley ranks higher than Chicago, Yale, and Harvard for almost every social science. The exception is economics, where Chicago and Harvard are tied for 1st and Berkeley is 6th. In addition, Berkeley is 1st in English, Sociology, and History.


Harvard--

Law - 2nd
Business - 1st
Education - 6th
Engineering - 18th
Medical - 1st
Average: 5.6


Yale--

Law - 1st
Business - 10th
Education - XX
Engineering - 40th
Medical - 6th
Average - n/a and wouldn't be close regardless


Chicago--

Law - 6th
Business - 5th
Education - XX
Engineering - XX
Medical - 13th
Average - n/a and wouldn't be close

[DoubleChecks]

rofl at this thread. In crackberry's defense, though, Stanford has the lowest acceptance rate of any undergrad. At least west of the Mississippi, Stanford is considered every bit as good as HYP. I wouldn't say Berkeley is on that level as far as lay prestige goes, but it is definitely not far behind. If you're going to include grad school and actually look at rankings, I'm not sure I'd even include Yale, and I'd just say Stanford and Berkeley are the best overall schools.

im a bit confused -- why is berkeley in this overall best 3 trinity? lol i can see the argument made for H, S, Chicago, etc., but i just dont see it for berkeley -- i mean, the ugrad there (while not the most important factor, is still a major factor given it has no med school as crack said) isnt even in the same league as S or H in selectivity (assuming you're from cali)

Berkeley--

Law - 6th
Business - 7th
Education - 7th
Engineering - 3rd
Medical - 5th (UC-San Francisco)
Sciences - Berkeley ties or ranks higher than Chicago, Yale, and Harvard for any science
Social Sciences - Berkeley ranks higher than Chicago, Yale, and Harvard for almost every social science. The exception is economics, where Chicago and Harvard are tied for 1st and Berkeley is 6th. In addition, Berkeley is 1st in English, Sociology, and History.


Harvard--

Law - 2nd
Business - 1st
Education - 6th
Engineering - 18th
Medical - 1st


Yale--

Law - 1st
Business - 10th
Education - XX
Engineering - 40th
Medical - 6th


Chicago--

Law - 6th
Business - 5th
Education - XX
Engineering - XX
Medical - 13th

i dont live on the west coast, so im a bit confused about the UC-SF = UC-B med school. and breaking down the sciences/social sciences is kind of picking and choosing isnt it? if we're gonna use overall rankings for the grad schools (and not break engineering down to aerospace, etc.) we may as well do it for ugrad too, where Berk is 21.

unless of course that was for all of its masters/doctorate programs???

[Kronk]

i dont live on the west coast, so im a bit confused about the UC-SF = UC-B med school. and breaking down the sciences/social sciences is kind of picking and choosing isnt it? if we're gonna use overall rankings for the grad schools (and not break engineering down to aerospace, etc.) we may as well do it for ugrad too, where Berk is 21.

unless of course that was for all of its masters/doctorate programs???

Those were all graduate programs.

[legalnoeagle]

Berkeley has an affiliation with UCSF med school? Or was that a nod to their geographical proximity? Serious question.

I'm always left to wonder whether or not business schools deserve a place in a discussion about the best academic institution....

[ConMan345]

]
I would not put Berkeley in the same league as HYPS (or a host of other privates) for undergrad education. What gives Berkeley such global renown is the strength of its graduate programs and its research contributions.

Agreed. Berkeley is really strong in the Humanities (especially English), and a smattering of social sciences, hard sciences, etc. It also helps that it's big as hell.

[Kronk]

Berkeley has an affiliation with UCSF med school? Or was that a nod to their geographical proximity? Serious question.

I'm always left to wonder whether or not business schools deserve a place in a discussion about the best academic institution....

They are affiliated, yes. You do three years at UCB and then go to UCSF for two years clinical, iirc.

[DoubleChecks]

i dont live on the west coast, so im a bit confused about the UC-SF = UC-B med school. and breaking down the sciences/social sciences is kind of picking and choosing isnt it? if we're gonna use overall rankings for the grad schools (and not break engineering down to aerospace, etc.) we may as well do it for ugrad too, where Berk is 21.

unless of course that was for all of its masters/doctorate programs???

Those were all graduate programs.

oh ok well that certainly bolsters the pro-B side. but even though it is in the top10 a lot, let's look at the metrics you did offer for more schools:

Harvard:

Ugrad - 1st
Law - 2nd
Business - 1st
Education - 6th
Engineering - 18th
Medical - 1st

Berkeley:

Ugrad - 21st
Law - 6th
Business - 7th
Education - 7th
Engineering - 3rd
Medical - XX

Stanford:

Ugrad - 4th
Law - 3rd
Business - 2nd
Education - 1st
Engineering - 2nd
Medical - 6th

UPenn:

Ugrad - 4th
Law - 8th
Business - 3rd
Education - 13th
Engineering - 27th
Medical - 3rd

Chicago:

Ugrad - 8th
Law - 6th
Business - 5th
Education - XX
Engineering - XX
Medical - 13th

seems to me that H and S are still a step up from Berkeley. of course i dont have all the diff grad schools factored in here, but as long as H and S place in the top 5ish for most of them, they'd still come out a bit stronger.

[Sogui]

Seriously I stop checking this thread for a day and its drama galore.

[adameus]

did someone post a challenge to see if we could surpass the GULC thread for most pages?

[invisiblesun]

Whoa, new LSN acceptance for HLS and SLS. Looks like a flame though...or maybe not...who knows...

[Kronk]

seems to me that H and S are still a step up from Berkeley. of course i dont have all the diff grad schools factored in here, but as long as H and S place in the top 5ish for most of them, they'd still come out a bit stronger.

tbf, if you're going to claim that H > B by your stats, then you have to admit that S is in a different tier from H as well. Also, none of the other schools (Penn, Chicago, etc) are close to Berkeley even if you include undergrad. I mean, think about the fact that Berkeley is better at EVERY SCIENCE AND SOCIAL SCIENCE other than economics than Harvard, Yale, Chicago, etc. That means sociology, english, physics, chemistry, biology, etc. Every single one. That is a LOT. And despite that huge advantage, Berkeley still has the same average place as Harvard if you take out undergrad. With undergrad included and weighted heavier than any individual grad school, you could make the argument that H > B. But Berkeley is still a clear third and Stanford a clear first. By your numbers, it's 1. Stanford, 2. Harvard, 3. Berkeley.

[MichelledeMontaigne]

All-encompassing rankings are stupid. Especially when they are made by 0Ls.

[Kronk]

All-encompassing rankings are stupid. Especially when they are made by 0Ls.

We're not talking about law school anymore, bud, you can drop the lingo.

[Olivio Pastimante]

I'm compiling unemployment data by law school to get a feel for which schools are hurting right now in terms of job prospects. It is not a scientific poll by any stretch, but it will help me and many others make a decision about where to go to school.

This only applies to current law students seeking employment.

If you can, please take a few seconds to vote:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=112655

[Kronk]

IF YOU ARE NOT AN HLS APPLICANT IN THIS CYCLE, THEN WITH DUE RESPECT I ASK THAT YOU PLEASE TAKE YOUR DRIVEL OUT OF THIS THREAD AND

GTFO

So..that eliminates no one.

[Na_Swatch]

It seems as if only people who live on the West Coast or near there (mid-west) rate Berkeley so highly. Its definitely a top university but blanket statements like "indisputable top 3" are ridiculous.

I'm guessing Kronk that you're in at Stanford or Berkeley so far in your cycle and are planning to attend one of them?

[legalnoeagle]

Not worth it, because someone might actually take me seriously.

[Kronk]

It seems as if only people who live on the West Coast or near there (mid-west) rate Berkeley so highly.

And, you know, the people that make the rankings.

[Na_Swatch]

It seems as if only people who live on the West Coast or near there (mid-west) rate Berkeley so highly.

And, you know, the people that make the rankings.

Even a cursory examination of the main ranking systems for World Universities shows this is not true.

The largest two rankings, by Times - QS and USNWR all have Harvard, Yale, Chicago, MIT, CIT, Columbia, Princeton, Columbia and more ranked squarely ahead of Berkeley.

In fact the only ranking that has Berkeley anywhere near where you've stated in world comparison is the ARWU, which upon investigation, is a ranking compiled by a Chinese University. Now this doesn't discount its accuracy, but its methods are slightly suspect in only using 6 categories, with 1/6 being Nobel prize winners. Examine the sources yourself if you wish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Times_High ... y_Rankings
http://www.topuniversities.com/world-un ... y-rankings
http://www.usnews.com/articles/educatio ... p-400.html
--LinkRemoved--

[Lmao Zedong]

thread's aggressively sucking ass right now IMO

[existenz]

Somebody tell these schools to just drop their pants and grab a ruler, then we can finally figure out who's best.

[DoubleChecks]

seems to me that H and S are still a step up from Berkeley. of course i dont have all the diff grad schools factored in here, but as long as H and S place in the top 5ish for most of them, they'd still come out a bit stronger.

tbf, if you're going to claim that H > B by your stats, then you have to admit that S is in a different tier from H as well. Also, none of the other schools (Penn, Chicago, etc) are close to Berkeley even if you include undergrad. I mean, think about the fact that Berkeley is better at EVERY SCIENCE AND SOCIAL SCIENCE other than economics than Harvard, Yale, Chicago, etc. That means sociology, english, physics, chemistry, biology, etc. Every single one. That is a LOT. And despite that huge advantage, Berkeley still has the same average place as Harvard if you take out undergrad. With undergrad included and weighted heavier than any individual grad school, you could make the argument that H > B. But Berkeley is still a clear third and Stanford a clear first. By your numbers, it's 1. Stanford, 2. Harvard, 3. Berkeley.

im okay w/ that argument lol. may not necessarily be exactly how id put it, but it certainly has merit to it. starts getting too subjective though. 1. S 2. H 3.B for the topic we were talking about is fine for me

[Kronk]

It seems as if only people who live on the West Coast or near there (mid-west) rate Berkeley so highly.

And, you know, the people that make the rankings.

Even a cursory examination of the main ranking systems for World Universities shows this is not true.

The largest two rankings, by Times - QS and USNWR all have Harvard, Yale, Chicago, MIT, CIT, Columbia, Princeton, Columbia and more ranked squarely ahead of Berkeley.

In fact the only ranking that has Berkeley anywhere near where you've stated in world comparison is the ARWU, which upon investigation, is a ranking compiled by a Chinese University. Now this doesn't discount its accuracy, but its methods are slightly suspect in only using 6 categories, with 1/6 being Nobel prize winners. Examine the sources yourself if you wish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Times_High ... y_Rankings
http://www.topuniversities.com/world-un ... y-rankings
http://www.usnews.com/articles/educatio ... p-400.html
--LinkRemoved--

tbf, way to neglect the rankings of national universities. Particularly since we're comparing universities within the USA only. Not to mention if they rank MIT near the top, it clearly doesn't fit into idea we're discussing, which is "overall" university. Since when does MIT have a law school, social sciences, etc.? We're comparing universities as a whole.

I mean, in that case, you can just show the USNWR for undergrad, which has Berkeley 21st. But my argument is predicated on the idea that graduate school is more important (because it is the degree that gets you a job, tbf). Thus making every link you posted fairly irrelevant.

[Na_Swatch]

tbf, way to neglect the rankings of national universities. Particularly since we're comparing universities within the USA only. Not to mention if they rank MIT near the top, it clearly doesn't fit into idea we're discussing, which is "overall" university. Since when does MIT have a law school, social sciences, etc.? We're comparing universities as a whole.

I mean, in that case, you can just show the USNWR for undergrad, which has Berkeley 21st. But my argument is predicated on the idea that graduate school is more important (because it is the degree that gets you a job, tbf). Thus making every link you posted fairly irrelevant.

The idea of comparing universities "on a whole" or "overall" is not equivalent to evaluating a university by just its graduate programs. There are wide variety of metrics possible for ranking or judging universities. In fact, I would argue that the system used by world rankings are more accurate in that they take every single aspect of a university into account.

I don't take issue with Berkeley being a top school from a solely graduate program perspective (especially if you are weighing the smaller, but still relevant graduate programs such as engineering, english, etc.) but just shifting from one category to another can cause major changes. For example, if you are basing the results on research output from a University, Columbia actually takes the number one position in some respected poles. (http://mup.asu.edu/research2007.pdf)