I made it into my "REACH" Forum

[Gotti]

It's sad that law is such a numbers-driven field that a single bad day on the LSAT can really, truly wipe out 4 years of hard work and determination whereas you can jack up 2 entire years of undergrad, wake up, get decent grades and still get into a top 14 school with a solid LSAT day. This is imbalanced in a system already full of imbalances. But like I said before, I "own" my LSAT performance and am not trying to make excuses for it or anything of the sort.

this is why you didn't do well on the lsat. circular reasoning.

This is unnecessary...stop being an asshole and going back to old posts to find something to comment negatively about

& She's right. A high GPA earned over 4 years of hard work should have more weight than a test you study for for 3 months.

for what reason is this true other than the terrible one given by aggiegrad? and of course, ignoring the fact that lsat score is a consistently better indicator of success in law school than gpa?

gpa>lsat advocates seem to always have this bizarre atittude that law schools care about lsat more than gpa for no reason, as if it's baffling to them. get real.

lol you need to check your facts. The LSAT has a very weak correlation on how students do in law school. The only correlation it has is about 16% with 1L and absolutely no correlation with 2L and 3L. Get real.

Okay /debate...I want to keep this thread positive, too, but I definitely had to comment on logistikon's unnecessary snide comment on an old post. I'm done now...back to positivity!!!

[bloopyblooper]

this is why you didn't do well on the lsat. circular reasoning.

This is unnecessary...stop being an asshole and going back to old posts to find something to comment negatively about

& She's right. A high GPA earned over 4 years of hard work should have more weight than a test you study for for 3 months.

for what reason is this true other than the terrible one given by aggiegrad? and of course, ignoring the fact that lsat score is a consistently better indicator of success in law school than gpa?

gpa>lsat advocates seem to always have this bizarre atittude that law schools care about lsat more than gpa for no reason, as if it's baffling to them. get real.

lol you need to check your facts. The LSAT has a very weak correlation on how students do in law school. The only correlation it has is about 16% with 1L and absolutely no correlation with 2L and 3L. Get real.

Okay /debate...I want to keep this thread positive, too, but I definitely had to comment on logistikon's unnecessary snide comment on an old post. I'm done now...back to positivity!!!

Regardless of a ~.2 correlation, logistikon is correct to say that the LSAT is a better indicator of 1L success than GPA. In addition, it is the only metric comparable across every (non-transfer, non-international) applicant.

4 years of hard work should be regarded more highly than <1 year's studying, but the fact remains that standards within schools vary significantly.

[Ginj]

Kitteh dissolves all tension.

[czelede]

Seriously, enough with the GPA/LSAT arguments. Schools have their own approaches to this, and it seems to be working out pretty well for them so just leave it at that. Plenty of reverse splitters get into great schools with solid applications (see the 4.0/169 into H that just posted, or take a look at the ED trends for Penn this cycle), and there is a reason why slacker splitters with nothing else to offer get shut out of everything.

Congrats to all the acceptances so far in this thread - it must feel awesome being the exception to the rule

[123kl]

Seriously, enough with the GPA/LSAT arguments. Schools have their own approaches to this, and it seems to be working out pretty well for them so just leave it at that. Plenty of reverse splitters get into great schools with solid applications (see the 4.0/169 into H that just posted, or take a look at the ED trends for Penn this cycle), and there is a reason why slacker splitters with nothing else to offer get shut out of everything.

Congrats to all the acceptances so far in this thread - it must feel awesome being the exception to the rule

+1 (from that 169/4 )

[snowballgirl]

dear 0Ls who made it into your "reach": better start gunning early!!

*makes gun sounds* phew phew phew

--ImageRemoved--

This reads a bit negatively. Did you mean this to be negative?

[Helmholtz]

Preparing for and taking the LSAT was much more like what I'm doing in law school now than anything I did while in undergrad. One single final exam can erase completely all the incredibly hard work you did up to that point (note: law school does not give out prizes for working hard and memorizing things; you do not deserve anything special because you worked harder than 99% of the other students - it's not a meritocracy in that sense). I think once you're here, you realize why the LSAT has a stronger correlation than GPA.

[Helmholtz]

4 years of hard work should be regarded more highly than <1 year's studying, but the fact remains that standards within schools vary significantly.

No no no. Law schools are looking for people who are going to do well in law school. They're not looking to hand out medals to people who put in a lot of hard work when there is a better measure out there for them to measure law school performance. In law school, don't ever start to feel like you deserve a grade based upon the fact that you worked harder than most. You don't. That's not how it works.

Okay, I'm done. Carry on.

Congratulations to all the people who made it into their reaches (that's what this thread is about? yeah? ok)

[IAFG]

4 years of hard work should be regarded more highly than <1 year's studying, but the fact remains that standards within schools vary significantly.

No no no. Law schools are looking for people who are going to do well in law school. They're not looking to hand out medals to people who put in a lot of hard work when there is a better measure out there for them to measure law school performance.

Okay, I'm done. Carry on.

Congratulations to all the people who made it into their reaches (that's what this thread is about? yeah? ok)

If splitters did worse in LS than reverse splitters, schools would stop admitting them.

[Helmholtz]

lol you need to check your facts. The LSAT has a very weak correlation on how students do in law school. The only correlation it has is about 16% with 1L and absolutely no correlation with 2L and 3L. Get real.

no

where did the number 16% come from?

[narayan1121]

I don't have a horse in this race, so don't attack the messenger. I just figured someone should use actual numbers.

Here's the quote from LSAC's Information Book, printed in 2009:

"During 2007, validity studies were conducted for 187 law schools. Correlations between LSAT scores and first-year law school grades ranged from .00 to .56 (median is .33). Correlations between LSAT scores combined with undergraduate grade-point averages and first-year law school grades ranged from .27 to .65 (median is .46)."

They don't list a correlation for GPA only, I imagine because GPA has nothing to do with them.

[r6_philly]

They don't list a correlation for GPA only, I imagine because GPA has nothing to do with them.

But the missing information is what will make or break the argument. It is too important to assume.

[WhatSarahSaid]

Who knows how useful this is, especially given its age, but the abstract from this 1993 report says that "the median validity of the LSAT alone is 0.41, compared with 0.26 for the UGPA alone."

http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/se ... o=ED468951

[r6_philly]

Who knows how useful this is, especially given its age, but the abstract from this 1993 report says that "the median validity of the LSAT alone is 0.41, compared with 0.26 for the UGPA alone."

http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/se ... o=ED468951

That's before grad inflation and changes in the LSAT... so ...

[hipstermafia]

as much as i love you guys, can we pleeeeease get this thread back on topic? there are tons of threads where you can go to discuss the lsat vs. gpa issue, or start another one if you are so inclined.

People have posted some great reach stories ITT already this cycle, this should be a happy non-fighting thread. more happy stories and less arguing please

[r6_philly]

as much as i love you guys, can we pleeeeease get this thread back on topic? there are tons of threads where you can go to discuss the lsat vs. gpa issue, or start another one if you are so inclined.

People have posted some great reach stories ITT already this cycle, this should be a happy non-fighting thread. more happy stories and less arguing please

I have nothing on-track to contribute yet ...

[kkklick]

Some encouraging stories in this thread.

[hipstermafia]

as much as i love you guys, can we pleeeeease get this thread back on topic? there are tons of threads where you can go to discuss the lsat vs. gpa issue, or start another one if you are so inclined.

People have posted some great reach stories ITT already this cycle, this should be a happy non-fighting thread. more happy stories and less arguing please

I have nothing on-track to contribute yet ...

Same, but i am looking forward to the day we do!

[snowballgirl]

They don't list a correlation for GPA only, I imagine because GPA has nothing to do with them.

But the missing information is what will make or break the argument. It is too important to assume.

According to the LSAC tech report the LSAT predictor of FYA was .33 and .34 and GPA was .28 and .29 (iirc). These are means, I believe so some schools are different in terms of the correlations. This is probably why the lsac encourages the schools to run their own validation studies. (Sorry for grammar and spelling, I am on a my phone.)

[xtine]

let's get this thread back on track...

[xtine]

GPA: 3.83 , LSAT 151
URM: Yes, AA Male

NAME OF REACH SCHOOL(S):
UGA
Wake Forest

Optional Essay:
Yes, Diversity Statement and a Why Statement

What you think got you into that school:
Probably my Master's from UNC and my work experience.

GPA: 3.15 , LSAT 163
URM: Native American

NAME OF REACH SCHOOL: Cornell

OPTIONAL ESSAY: DS? I don't remember if it was optional.

EA, URM status, and a strong PS which included some diversity, a lot of adversity, and a dash work experience to tie it all together in a "Why Law" kind of way.
I should never have been accepted, even with a URM bump, but I am very very thankful.

Submitted 11/2 (12:35 am) and was still considered EA.

Harvard

169/4.03, non-urm

What got me in-- solid gpa from ivy, work experience with doj in one of my legal interests, tons of focused ecs with leadership, diversity statement

GPA: 3.18 LSAT: 156
URM: AA Male

NAME OF REACH SCHOOL: University of Illinois-C w/20k a year

OPTIONAL ESSAY: No, but had some Why Illinois stuff in the personal statement

WHAT GOT ME IN: URM, My long list of softs (started non-profit, developed program for underrepresented youth, Legislative Intern, + more) Excellent Rec letters, and 2 years WE for Fortune 100 company

Northwestern!

153/3.85

Did all optional essays and interviewed!

[Flustercluck]

In the spirit of getting the thread back on track...

GPA: 2.68
LSAT: 168
URM: 1/2 Mex + 1/2 Black = Blaxican

In at Northwestern

3/3 Optional Essays (Diversity Statement, Why Northwestern, Project Management Essay) with two addendums (Academic Probation and a Misdemeanor Dislosure)

In addition to doing all essays, I applied ED and interviewed on campus (I've been told I interview very well). I feel that may have been what pushed me over.

Also, worked through high school and college nearly full time (32+ hours). Post-undergrad I had 3+ years of professional work experience, and moved up from a go-for/temp to a project manager in the same political consulting firm in under two years. I figure these aspects probably helped a great deal in counterbalancing my lower GPA.

[logistikon]

Preparing for and taking the LSAT was much more like what I'm doing in law school now than anything I did while in undergrad. One single final exam can erase completely all the incredibly hard work you did up to that point (note: law school does not give out prizes for working hard and memorizing things; you do not deserve anything special because you worked harder than 99% of the other students - it's not a meritocracy in that sense). I think once you're here, you realize why the LSAT has a stronger correlation than GPA.

thank you.

[Barbie]

I never filled out the actual form and jsut came in and screamed "Yay!" so here it is:

GPA: 3.3 , LSAT 163
URM: Nope

NAME OF REACH SCHOOL:
UIUC

Optional Essay:
Kind of. Short, informal "Why UIUC"

What you think got you into that school:
Softs, PS, diversity, etc.

[Flustercluck]

I never filled out the actual form and jsut came in and screamed "Yay!" so here it is:

GPA: 3.3 , LSAT 163
URM: Nope

NAME OF REACH SCHOOL:
UIUC

Optional Essay:
Kind of. Short, informal "Why UIUC"

What you think got you into that school:
Softs, PS, diversity, etc.

Congrats! and love the 'tar...