Harvard Law c/o 2020 Applicants (2016-2017) Forum

[LHS17]

I find it hard to believe there is a 26% drop in APPLICATIONS from the 175-180 cohort attributable solely to their decision not to apply. Why invest so much in getting such a good score not to even see what it will yield? What am I missing?

These are likely already really smart and capable people who have other great options.
The economy is healthy, so less incentive to take yourself out of the marketplace and go into likely debt for school again.

The 26% number is hard to buy. So is "likely debt" with a 175 or above. Human nature is to at least see where one gets in, and at what price, with such a good score. Then pursue something else.

[Kinch08]

I know a guy who took the LSAT for fun. Knew for a fact he'd never apply to any law schools, just liked taking tests. He claims to have gotten a 176 (without studying), but I don't believe him. I also don't think there are enough hims to seriously skew the data, but who knows?

[HonestlyThough]

Do you mean applicants in January on or JS1 in Jan on?
I agree with your hypothesis, especially given the drop in high 172+ scorers this year. It's messing with the admissions committee at HYS for sure.

Can you explain more? What do you mean drop in high 172+? I thought LSAT scores were curved so that approx the same number of people got top scores on each test?

In terms of who is actually applying.
http://blog.spiveyconsulting.com/2016-2 ... -02-03-17/

My interpretation based on what I've read, and I haven't looked at the language recently, is that the test is pre-curved to represent what percentile a score should represent over a normalized time horizon. That's how you get specific score drops on any one exam.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

What we are saying is that less people with those numbers are APPLYING. As in, they get their score and they choose not to apply to law school. This has absolutely nothing to do with how the LSAT is equated.

I find it hard to believe there is a 26% drop in APPLICATIONS from the 175-180 cohort attributable solely to their decision not to apply. Why invest so much in getting such a good score not to even see what it will yield? What am I missing?

Because there are so few people with those scores anyway, even just a handful of them deciding not to apply would shift the numbers enough to result in percentage point drops. The economy is good, law school is expensive, people with good scores who get a good job might just stick with their job instead of going to school. You saw law school applications rise sharply during the financial crisis, probably because a bunch of super smart kids were out of luck. No they aren't. I don't think this is the sole attributor to the decline in 175+ scores, but I do think it could be a factor.

From a previous discussion, doesn't Harvard seemingly have a hard GPA floor of 3.5? Do people think that will hold up this year.

If all of the schools are actually dealing with only 350 people with 175s or higher, does anyone know if that is translating into some killer negotiating power for top LSAT scorers (who also have good other numbers and softs)? I'm wondering if people will maybe be able to get better offers than those that are usually on the table.

[Rigo]

Do you mean applicants in January on or JS1 in Jan on?
I agree with your hypothesis, especially given the drop in high 172+ scorers this year. It's messing with the admissions committee at HYS for sure.

Can you explain more? What do you mean drop in high 172+? I thought LSAT scores were curved so that approx the same number of people got top scores on each test?

In terms of who is actually applying.
http://blog.spiveyconsulting.com/2016-2 ... -02-03-17/

Am I the only one that thinks HYS are not going to be phased all that much by the current applicants' LSAT scores? There are more than enough to maintain all 3 schools' high medians and 75 percentiles. Assuming that many of those applicants will also have respectable GPAs (above each school's medians), I just don't see this cycle being all that numerically different from the past. Timing has been atypical, but I don't think we'll see that much of a shift in the class profiles.

To be fair, Harvard's median fell last year. So they will be impacted. Harvard especially is more likely to be impacted simply due to math with their huge class size.
That being said, the situation will be more dire at other schools that have to give out big scholarships to attract qualified matriculants. HYS can get by in large part due to prestige.

[Pozzo]

Do you mean applicants in January on or JS1 in Jan on?
I agree with your hypothesis, especially given the drop in high 172+ scorers this year. It's messing with the admissions committee at HYS for sure.

Can you explain more? What do you mean drop in high 172+? I thought LSAT scores were curved so that approx the same number of people got top scores on each test?

In terms of who is actually applying.
http://blog.spiveyconsulting.com/2016-2 ... -02-03-17/

Am I the only one that thinks HYS are not going to be phased all that much by the current applicants' LSAT scores? There are more than enough to maintain all 3 schools' high medians and 75 percentiles. Assuming that many of those applicants will also have respectable GPAs (above each school's medians), I just don't see this cycle being all that numerically different from the past. Timing has been atypical, but I don't think we'll see that much of a shift in the class profiles.

This has been my feeling too. Of course, if lower ranked schools are changing up how they give out money to maintain their medians, then HYS might have to react to a lower than average yield. Not sure that we've seen this, though. Of course, I'm not sure how we, the unqualified internet pontificators, would ever get data to assess this kind of change. Still, it's fun to speculate.

[KateMcKitten]

I know a guy who took the LSAT for fun. Knew for a fact he'd never apply to any law schools, just liked taking tests. He claims to have gotten a 176 (without studying), but I don't believe him. I also don't think there are enough hims to seriously skew the data, but who knows?

fake news

(or maybe I'm just jealous and wish I could've done that)

[Rigo]

If all of the schools are actually dealing with only 350 people with 175s or higher, does anyone know if that is translating into some killer negotiating power for top LSAT scorers (who also have good other numbers and softs)? I'm wondering if people will maybe be able to get better offers than those that are usually on the table.

I mean, these people are the likely Hamiltons, Rubys, Dillards anyways so really not too much more they can get out of the law school negotiation game.

The 169-174 people probably gained the most power this cycle since that's where all the top law school medians lie for the most part.

[HonestlyThough]

If all of the schools are actually dealing with only 350 people with 175s or higher, does anyone know if that is translating into some killer negotiating power for top LSAT scorers (who also have good other numbers and softs)? I'm wondering if people will maybe be able to get better offers than those that are usually on the table.

I mean, these people are the likely Hamiltons, Rubys, Dillards anyways so really not too much more they can get out of the law school negotiation game.

The 169-174 people probably gained the most power this cycle since that's where all the top law school medians lie for the most part.

You never know. A lot of people are just underinformed about the process. I did not apply for any named scholarships at any school and sent all my apps in 2/1 or later because I was just ignorant about the process before applying. Plenty of people with top numbers could be in the same boat.

[jjcorvino]

If all of the schools are actually dealing with only 350 people with 175s or higher, does anyone know if that is translating into some killer negotiating power for top LSAT scorers (who also have good other numbers and softs)? I'm wondering if people will maybe be able to get better offers than those that are usually on the table.

I mean, these people are the likely Hamiltons, Rubys, Dillards anyways so really not too much more they can get out of the law school negotiation game.

The 169-174 people probably gained the most power this cycle since that's where all the top law school medians lie for the most part.

I don't think they all are. There are probably a fair amount of people with lowish GPAs (like me) and high scores that don't have a shot at the big money.

[CHyde]

.

[jjcorvino]

If all of the schools are actually dealing with only 350 people with 175s or higher, does anyone know if that is translating into some killer negotiating power for top LSAT scorers (who also have good other numbers and softs)? I'm wondering if people will maybe be able to get better offers than those that are usually on the table.

I mean, these people are the likely Hamiltons, Rubys, Dillards anyways so really not too much more they can get out of the law school negotiation game.

The 169-174 people probably gained the most power this cycle since that's where all the top law school medians lie for the most part.

You never know. A lot of people are just underinformed about the process. I did not apply for any named scholarships at any school and sent all my apps in 2/1 or later because I was just ignorant about the process before applying. Plenty of people with top numbers could be in the same boat.

I don't think any of the scholarships he mentioned you need to apply for. you are nominated based on the application.

[Rigo]

If all of the schools are actually dealing with only 350 people with 175s or higher, does anyone know if that is translating into some killer negotiating power for top LSAT scorers (who also have good other numbers and softs)? I'm wondering if people will maybe be able to get better offers than those that are usually on the table.

I mean, these people are the likely Hamiltons, Rubys, Dillards anyways so really not too much more they can get out of the law school negotiation game.

The 169-174 people probably gained the most power this cycle since that's where all the top law school medians lie for the most part.

I don't think they all are. There are probably a fair amount of people with lowish GPAs (like me) and high scores that don't have a shot at the big money.

I was working within her "also have good other numbers and softs" parameter, although I do think the splitters I know have had pretty good cycles thus far.

[Kinch08]

You never know. A lot of people are just underinformed about the process. I did not apply for any named scholarships at any school and sent all my apps in 2/1 or later because I was just ignorant about the process before applying. Plenty of people with top numbers could be in the same boat.

You could get a Ruby next year, or you could go to HYS this year. HYS don't give out merit aid, period, so you can't really do much better than simple admittance to the one you prefer.

[jjcorvino]

If all of the schools are actually dealing with only 350 people with 175s or higher, does anyone know if that is translating into some killer negotiating power for top LSAT scorers (who also have good other numbers and softs)? I'm wondering if people will maybe be able to get better offers than those that are usually on the table.

I mean, these people are the likely Hamiltons, Rubys, Dillards anyways so really not too much more they can get out of the law school negotiation game.

The 169-174 people probably gained the most power this cycle since that's where all the top law school medians lie for the most part.

I don't think they all are. There are probably a fair amount of people with lowish GPAs (like me) and high scores that don't have a shot at the big money.

I was working within her "also have good other numbers and softs" parameter, although I do think the splitters I know have had pretty good cycles thus far.

Oh whoops, reading comprehension

[Rigo]

If all of the schools are actually dealing with only 350 people with 175s or higher, does anyone know if that is translating into some killer negotiating power for top LSAT scorers (who also have good other numbers and softs)? I'm wondering if people will maybe be able to get better offers than those that are usually on the table.

I mean, these people are the likely Hamiltons, Rubys, Dillards anyways so really not too much more they can get out of the law school negotiation game.

The 169-174 people probably gained the most power this cycle since that's where all the top law school medians lie for the most part.

I don't think they all are. There are probably a fair amount of people with lowish GPAs (like me) and high scores that don't have a shot at the big money.

I was working within her "also have good other numbers and softs" parameter, although I do think the splitters I know have had pretty good cycles thus far.

Oh whoops, reading comprehension

I'm not the most clear with word choice, so no prob bb

[HonestlyThough]

If all of the schools are actually dealing with only 350 people with 175s or higher, does anyone know if that is translating into some killer negotiating power for top LSAT scorers (who also have good other numbers and softs)? I'm wondering if people will maybe be able to get better offers than those that are usually on the table.

I mean, these people are the likely Hamiltons, Rubys, Dillards anyways so really not too much more they can get out of the law school negotiation game.

The 169-174 people probably gained the most power this cycle since that's where all the top law school medians lie for the most part.

You never know. A lot of people are just underinformed about the process. I did not apply for any named scholarships at any school and sent all my apps in 2/1 or later because I was just ignorant about the process before applying. Plenty of people with top numbers could be in the same boat.

I don't think any of the scholarships he mentioned you need to apply for. you are nominated based on the application.

Thanks! Continuing to be absolutely uninformed (oops!)

[HonestlyThough]

You never know. A lot of people are just underinformed about the process. I did not apply for any named scholarships at any school and sent all my apps in 2/1 or later because I was just ignorant about the process before applying. Plenty of people with top numbers could be in the same boat.

You could get a Ruby next year, or you could go to HYS this year. HYS don't give out merit aid, period, so you can't really do much better than simple admittance to the one you prefer.

I'd rather take an HYS. I'm PI, and going to need to ride that loan repayment assistance anyway.

[Pozzo]

You never know. A lot of people are just underinformed about the process. I did not apply for any named scholarships at any school and sent all my apps in 2/1 or later because I was just ignorant about the process before applying. Plenty of people with top numbers could be in the same boat.

You could get a Ruby next year, or you could go to HYS this year. HYS don't give out merit aid, period, so you can't really do much better than simple admittance to the one you prefer.

I'd rather take an HYS. I'm PI, and going to need to ride that loan repayment assistance anyway.

You wouldn't need that with a Ruby.

[HonestlyThough]

You never know. A lot of people are just underinformed about the process. I did not apply for any named scholarships at any school and sent all my apps in 2/1 or later because I was just ignorant about the process before applying. Plenty of people with top numbers could be in the same boat.

You could get a Ruby next year, or you could go to HYS this year. HYS don't give out merit aid, period, so you can't really do much better than simple admittance to the one you prefer.

I'd rather take an HYS. I'm PI, and going to need to ride that loan repayment assistance anyway.

You wouldn't need that with a Ruby.

Correct me if I'm wrong (which I totally could be because i'm inches from being Jon Snow) but isn't it full tuition and not full COA? I'm penniless, so I'd be taking out loans for anything short of COA.

But yes, you're right. I wish I'd been more prepared/knowledgeable before applying. :/

[KateMcKitten]

You never know. A lot of people are just underinformed about the process. I did not apply for any named scholarships at any school and sent all my apps in 2/1 or later because I was just ignorant about the process before applying. Plenty of people with top numbers could be in the same boat.

You could get a Ruby next year, or you could go to HYS this year. HYS don't give out merit aid, period, so you can't really do much better than simple admittance to the one you prefer.

I'd rather take an HYS. I'm PI, and going to need to ride that loan repayment assistance anyway.

You wouldn't need that with a Ruby.

Or a Hamilton or one of the various named schollys at NYU (not including COL, of course). Columbia and NYU are two of the best law schools for PI. As a fellow PI, it breaks my heart that they're in a city that riddles me with unhappiness, or I'd go to one of them in a heartbeat.

[Pozzo]

You never know. A lot of people are just underinformed about the process. I did not apply for any named scholarships at any school and sent all my apps in 2/1 or later because I was just ignorant about the process before applying. Plenty of people with top numbers could be in the same boat.

You could get a Ruby next year, or you could go to HYS this year. HYS don't give out merit aid, period, so you can't really do much better than simple admittance to the one you prefer.

I'd rather take an HYS. I'm PI, and going to need to ride that loan repayment assistance anyway.

You wouldn't need that with a Ruby.

Correct me if I'm wrong (which I totally could be because i'm inches from being Jon Snow) but isn't it full tuition and not full COA? I'm penniless, so I'd be taking out loans for anything short of COA.

But yes, you're right. I wish I'd been more prepared/knowledgeable before applying. :/

No worries, sorry to be snarky there. Some of the named scholarships, including the Ruby, come with modest living stipends. Put that together with summer PI funding or a Summer Associate somewhere, and you're talking very VERY minimal debt coming out of a top school.

[HonestlyThough]

You never know. A lot of people are just underinformed about the process. I did not apply for any named scholarships at any school and sent all my apps in 2/1 or later because I was just ignorant about the process before applying. Plenty of people with top numbers could be in the same boat.

You could get a Ruby next year, or you could go to HYS this year. HYS don't give out merit aid, period, so you can't really do much better than simple admittance to the one you prefer.

I'd rather take an HYS. I'm PI, and going to need to ride that loan repayment assistance anyway.

You wouldn't need that with a Ruby.

Or a Hamilton or one of the various named schollys at NYU (not including COL, of course). Columbia and NYU are two of the best law schools for PI. As a fellow PI, it breaks my heart that they're in a city that riddles me with unhappiness, or I'd go to one of them in a heartbeat.

Yes, you're absolutely right about that. And I think I deserved the snarkiness. However, I'm a bit with McKitten here. I don't know if all that money could tempt me to live in Chicago or NY. I think Yale might be the only thing that could tempt me to live in a place I really wouldn't want to be. (I find Ann Arbor and Boston less objectionable, personally) Hence why Berkeley is high on my list despite not being literally as high on THE list. I care a lot about where I live.

[HarvardHopeful95]

Does anyone who doesn't have a JS1 from Harvard have a shot at this point?

yes but probably not a very good one

I seriously would rather they outright reject me rather than string me along

[KaijuOh8]

I think there will be a JS2 wave this Friday. Tomorrow is out of question: the adcoms will be busy with final preparations for the ASW. Thursday too is highy unlikely, as Dean Soban would appear to say her welcome and may oversee some events.

I'm calling Friday because I'm thinking (1) Harvard would be extremely pressed to make all remaining calls next week, with all the JS1s held this week (assuming it still has +250 offers to make); and (2) the adcoms, including Dean Soban, wouldn't need to be present at events on that day. The latter rationale is based on the assumption that adcoms are not required to appear after the first day of an ASW - at least that's how Berkeley's ASW went, as far as my observations and memories are concerned.

[myrik]

As far as we know there were never interviews scheduled for tomorrow morning right?

Fingers crossed