Indiana: Bloomington & The New Rank Forum

[Borhas]

Which claim are you referring to? That money can buy prestige? That is a proven fact. I'm not trying to be dismissive, but I don't feel like I have to defend that claim.

On to your data. I'm not clear, you're saying WUSTL used money to improve their rankings? If so, and you're saying that their hiring data didn't improve in sync with their USNWR rankings, then I can't argue with the data you present. However, you might be looking at a snapshot that doesn't accurately capture the way an increase in ranking improves BIG LAW placement. I suspect that any type of ranking increase will take time to show in the BIG LAW Ranking. There are more assumptions built into your comparison, such as the desire of kids in these schools to want to go to BIG LAW. I don't mean to derail the argument with this point, but you're assuming that the same percentage of people who went to WUSTL actually want BIG LAW as they do in another similar ranked school that places better. I know we can't know this, so I'll let it be. What I do suspect is that a sustained increase in rankings will help a school improve its perception amongst other lawyers. That will eventually lead to better BIG LAW placement. Once that network becomes better established, those working in BIG LAW will look to hire fellow alums.

You're argument basically says: "it hasn't happened in this short time period (10 years is short for this kind of stuff), so I don't think it will happen." You may be right, but I think it will take longer for an increase in ranking prestige to pay dividends from a job perspective (especially if you're only talking about BIG LAW).

you're the one that saying there are these effects that are proven beyond fact, I'm just testing your hypothesis

the results are either the opposite of what's expected, or there is no significant relationship

That $$ can buy USNWR rankings IS beyond dispute (well not beyond dispute, but I'm not arguing that it's false), but maybe you think prestige=USNWR rankings... prestige is slightly different than NLJ 250 hiring, but I can assure you, there is no more of a prestige whoring hiring process than Big Law hiring. We can use them as a proxy.

[nelaw2010]

I have a 105k scholarship at IUB. I would JUMP, I repeat JUMP at a 60k scholly at ND. IUB doesn't compare. 60 firms at OCI and all of them are slimy located in the midwest. ND has national appeal. And as a proof of such a point, they at least have firms in states outside of the MidWest showing up at OCI. Don't be a fool and fall for the gaming of IUB. Good school, good quality, but far from being comparable to ND. And that's coming from someone booking a flight for the scholar weekend lol.

Personally, I'd rather have a job versus a cool ranking. But hey, that's just me.

I can't argue with this. But what I'm comparing is IUB for 120k, vs nothing at a higher ranked school. That's $450/mo for 30 years vs $1,173 per month for 30 years.

You might get the grades you need and get BIG LAW. You might not. You might get the job and hate it and quit. You might get fired b/c the partners don't like you (THAT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME). You might end up loving it, making Partner, and laughing all the way to the bank. But chances are you won't. But you will DEFINITELY have the debt.

mez06, I'm curious as to how much time you have spent at BIG LAW firm. That is my concern. People are taking on HUGE amounts of debt for a job they probably won't get, and if they do, they will probably hate.

Would you bet 180k to maybe get a job that pays 160k? What percentage of students from ND get BIG LAW? 25 - 30%? That's 70% that don't get it, but get hosed with a monthly payment of $1,173.

Do this, start setting aside $1,173 every month and see how you're doing at the end of the month.

I'm just trying to get people to rethink this BIG LAW infatuation and think about WHY they want to go to law school. If you're goal is BIG LAW, then why not go work at a BIG LAW firm and see how you like it?

If you already did, and love BIG LAW, then you're in small minority and I wish you the best.

[Borhas]

I have a 105k scholarship at IUB. I would JUMP, I repeat JUMP at a 60k scholly at ND. IUB doesn't compare. 60 firms at OCI and all of them are slimy located in the midwest. ND has national appeal. And as a proof of such a point, they at least have firms in states outside of the MidWest showing up at OCI. Don't be a fool and fall for the gaming of IUB. Good school, good quality, but far from being comparable to ND. And that's coming from someone booking a flight for the scholar weekend lol.

Personally, I'd rather have a job versus a cool ranking. But hey, that's just me.

I can't argue with this. But what I'm comparing is to IUB for 120k, compared to nothing at a higher ranked school. That's $450/mo for 30 years vs $1,173 per month for 30 years.

You might get the grades you need and get BIG LAW. You might not. You might get the job and hate it and quit. You might get fired b/c the partners don't like you (THAT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME). You might end up loving it, making Partner, and laughing all the way to the bank. But chances are you won't. But you will DEFINITELY have the debt.

mez06, I'm curious as to how much time you have spent at BIG LAW firm. That is my concern. People are taking on HUGE amounts of debt for a job they probably won't get, and if they do, they will probably hate.

Would you bet 180k to maybe get a job that pays 160k? What percentage of students from ND get BIG LAW? 25 - 30%? That's 70% that don't get it, but get hosed with a monthly payment of $1,173.

Do this, start setting aside $1,173 every month and see how you're doing at the end of the month.

I'm just trying to get people to rethink this BIG LAW infatuation and think about WHY they want to go to law school. If you're goal is BIG LAW, then why not go work at a BIG LAW firm and see how you like it?

If you already did, and love BIG LAW, then you're in small minority and I wish you the best.

the thing is, there are lower ranked schools that FAR outperform IUB. Schools like Boston College.

There are also schools that are ranked FAR below IUB that perform equal or better... SMU, Loyola, Houston, Villanova, Georgia State, Pitt, BYU, Howard, and Temple for example (all these schools actually placed more into NLJ 250 in past two years than IUB). I'd bet someone that gets money from IUB could probably get money from those schools.

If you are fine living life without Big Law, and fine w/ living in Indiana area then IUB is an excellent choice. Just like if you are fine w/ living in Chicago and going to Loyola... Houston, Philly, Atlanta etc..

[mf980]

I have a 105k scholarship at IUB. I would JUMP, I repeat JUMP at a 60k scholly at ND. IUB doesn't compare. 60 firms at OCI and all of them are slimy located in the midwest. ND has national appeal. And as a proof of such a point, they at least have firms in states outside of the MidWest showing up at OCI. Don't be a fool and fall for the gaming of IUB. Good school, good quality, but far from being comparable to ND. And that's coming from someone booking a flight for the scholar weekend lol.

Personally, I'd rather have a job versus a cool ranking. But hey, that's just me.

I think that statement is a hyperbole and does not consider the full spectrum of opportunities that are attached to a legal education.

I think that acquiring a graduate degree, especially a professional degree, is a pretty smart move in preparing for a career. Doing so without picking up a lot of debt, and doing so at a good school, is a non-trivial factor.

As a 0L, I do not currently plan on limiting myself to the legal field just because I plan on attending law school; and if I do pursue a career in the legal field, then I don't want to be pigeonholed into the job offer that pays the highest salary.

I hope that there are others who share, or can at least relate to, this point of view.

As a student who has yet to take a law class, it seems a little silly to think that a career in law is my certain path--I have already abandoned the career options that usually follow my undergraduate studies; this notion becomes magnified when I attach a large gamble, debt, to it.

In the specific case of IU:B, the generous scholarships they have given to students this winter could also encourage those students to pursue studies in another graduate school while studying law on IU:B's campus. Essentially, this could mean getting a JD/MBA for the price of an MBA and a few extra thousand.

That option is incredible for future career prospects.

[nelaw2010]

you're the one that saying there are these effects that are proven beyond fact, I'm just testing your hypothesis

the results are either the opposite of what's expected, or there is no significant relationship

That $$ can buy USNWR rankings IS beyond dispute (well not beyond dispute, but I'm not arguing that's false), but maybe you think prestige=USNWR rankings... prestige is different than NLJ 250 hiring, but I can assure you, there is no more of a prestige whoring hiring process than Big Law hiring. We can use them as a proxy.

I'm saying that it is proven that money buys prestige. I think we can all agree on that.

What YOU ARE saying is that the data doesn't show the relationship for the small sample we have to go off of, so therefore what I'm saying is false. Don't you see the problem with your argument? I agree that the data doesn't show the relationship in the timeframe which is presented. But do I think that it will show a relationship in longer sample of time? Yes.

Why? Because like you said, " there is no more of a prestige whoring hiring process than Big Law hiring." The prestige that a school gains by a long term lift in the rankings will eventually pay off.

I worked in a BIG LAW firm, and here's what I saw. Corp clients, like banks, insurance companies (the worst people in the world), go to your website and see what law schools your partners and associates went to (obviously there is more to this process than this, but this is one component). That's a selling point that BIG LAW firms use to attract new clients. The longer a school sustains better rankings, and uses their money + better rankings to increase both professional and lay prestige, the more attractive a person from a certain school becomes to a BIG LAW firm that now has to go try to get new clients at a bank full of "elitists" who only look to see where people went to school and make a decision based on their limited understanding of the rankings.

Would a BIG LAW firm prefer to hire a less qualified attorney from HARVARD than a more qualified attorney from IUB? From what I saw, yes. Why? Because the Harvard name sells. That's what this whole thing is about!!!!!! How marketable is the name of your school. How do you improve that name recognition? Many ways. Almost all of which are done with money.

The BIG LAW hiring practices make sense to that industry. Why? Because it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. BIG LAW attorneys come from big name schools. Big BANK execs who make the decision on which firm to hire come from the same big name business schools. People build relationships, and you go from there. Not only that, but judging the quality of work is a different animal on a Corporate macro level rather than the way you would judge a criminal law attorney.

I don't give a shit where my crim law attorney went to law school. I want to know: 1. His local rep, 2. Does he win cases, 3. Does he win cases. What comfort will it be that he went to Harvard while I'm frying on the electric chair?

But you can't measure it the same way when it comes to corp law handling corp clients.

[nelaw2010]

There are also schools that are ranked FAR below IUB that perform equal or better... SMU, Loyola, Houston, Villanova, Georgia State, Pitt, BYU, Howard, and Temple for example (all these schools actually placed more into NLJ 250 in past two years than IUB). I'd bet someone that gets money from IUB could probably get money from those schools.

If you are fine living life without Big Law, and fine w/ living in Indiana area then IUB is an excellent choice. Just like if you are fine w/ living in Chicago and going to Loyola... Houston, Philly, Atlanta etc..

Borhas, how long did you work in BIG LAW (as a temp, paralegal, receptionist)?

Just because you go to a school that places better in BIG LAW doesn't mean that YOU will get Big Law. But you will definitely have the debt. As far as the lower ranked schools you listed, I got in to some of them, and none of them gave me more money than IUB.

Whether or not I end up in Indiana remains to be seen. I want to do Crim Def law, and I'm willing to make the sacrifice of taking a lesser paying job in Cali to learn my craft.

Will I be fine living w/o BIG LAW? Yes. Will you?

[Borhas]

I don't work in Big Law, I don't want to work in Big Law, and I will not work in Big Law

I'm actually going for Crim defense as well, public defender to be precise

I'm not at all trying to dissuade you from going to IUB, and w/ 120k it's not a bad deal... BUT I'd caution you against going there if you want to end up working in California... unless you have decent connections in the state.

My only point is that the rankings ought not factor in. Not even as a tie breaker... there's just no good evidence that shows that the USNWR rankings have any effect on employment.

[nelaw2010]

I don't want anyone reading my posts to be offended. It is not my intention to insult anyone. I simply hope to bring some perspective to this forum. I think there is a BIG LAW infatuation that is undeserved.

I think what most are infatuated with is the money. Money is infatuating. But remember that you will have to pony up A LOT of money before being given a chance to even partake of the BIG LAW money.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with pursuing the BIG LAW dream. Just PLEASE go spend some time in a BIG LAW firm before deciding to take on so much debt.

Personally, I'm going to law school to start my own criminal defense firm. Be my own boss, make money and hopefully help others in the process. I know that criminal defense has a bad rep, but our entire system depends on "innocent till proven guilty" and having a competent attorney defending you.

If BIG LAW is your thing, congrats! But how do you know it's your thing? Some of you are taking on 180k debt without ever having stepped into a BIG LAW firm.

That is crazy!!!!!!!!!!!

[nelaw2010]

I don't work in Big Law, I don't want to work in Big Law, and I will not work in Big Law

I'm actually going for Crim defense as well, public defender to be precise

I'm not at all trying to dissuade you from going to IUB, and w/ 120k it's not a bad deal... BUT I'd caution you against going there if you want to end up working in California... unless you have decent connections in the state.

I got a great connection - you! I didn't realize that you go to Hastings. You must be on the West Coast if you're still blogging!!! I'm in Los Angeles. Yes, I'm nervous about going to IUB and trying to come back to LA.

I'll PM you my current options (if you don't mind) and hopefully you can give me some feedback. I'm also looking to be a PD then Crim Def.

[Borhas]

I don't work in Big Law, I don't want to work in Big Law, and I will not work in Big Law

I'm actually going for Crim defense as well, public defender to be precise

I'm not at all trying to dissuade you from going to IUB, and w/ 120k it's not a bad deal... BUT I'd caution you against going there if you want to end up working in California... unless you have decent connections in the state.

I got a great connection - you! I didn't realize that you go to Hastings. You must be on the West Coast if you're still blogging!!! I'm in Los Angeles. Yes, I'm nervous about going to IUB and trying to come back to LA.

I'll PM you my current options (if you don't mind) and hopefully you can give me some feedback. I'm also looking to be a PD then Crim Def.

Sure thing brother, always glad to help

I'll be interning at a PD office in So Cal this summer, and the more I think about it, the more I think I'll end up in So Cal.

[nelaw2010]

I don't work in Big Law, I don't want to work in Big Law, and I will not work in Big Law

I'm actually going for Crim defense as well, public defender to be precise

I'm not at all trying to dissuade you from going to IUB, and w/ 120k it's not a bad deal... BUT I'd caution you against going there if you want to end up working in California... unless you have decent connections in the state.

I got a great connection - you! I didn't realize that you go to Hastings. You must be on the West Coast if you're still blogging!!! I'm in Los Angeles. Yes, I'm nervous about going to IUB and trying to come back to LA.

I'll PM you my current options (if you don't mind) and hopefully you can give me some feedback. I'm also looking to be a PD then Crim Def.

Sure thing brother, always glad to help

I'll be interning at a PD office in So Cal this summer, and the more I think about it, the more I think I'll end up in So Cal.

Congrats!!!!!! I PM'd you. Hit me up when you can.

[kings84_wr]

When using the NLJ numbers take into account there are only 2 firms in the NLJ 250 from Indianapolis. I think I did a count that something like 15 total NLJ firms were at IU's oci last year from various midwestern locations. Most of the big firms in Indiana are more like "mid" law. So that skews some of the NLJ numbers or just shows how small a market Indianapolis is.

However If you want Chicago or NYC biglaw you better finish minimum top 5% at IU. IU can place into Indy/Louisville/Ohio if you are more like top 15% -20%.

Also IU has double the clerkship of schools like Loyola.

Edit to add to the CA issue: There were about 6 or 7 of us from CA in the class of 2012, and 3 of transferred out.

[mez06]

To be honest, you're right, I have never stepped foot in a BigLAW office. I am in fact infatuated with the money and the prestige. Granted, I have worked for a Fortune 100 company for a couple year so I get the general office politics and bloodthirsty money-machine vibe. But to add to that, I understand the limits of IU. Not sure if I'm going there, but I sure as hell want to check it out b/c of the big scholarship and the opportunity to fly there for free.

You're right, its a hell of a gamble. Where did you get the calculations for the monthly payments? I'm looking at another option that would cost me 115k over 3 years.

[danquayle]

http://newsinfo.iu.edu/news/page/normal/9420.html


"The gift qualifies for matching funds set aside by IU, through its "Matching the Promise" campaign, for the purpose of supporting endowed scholarships, fellowships and faculty positions. This will effectively double the annual distribution of income earned on the gift."

AKA they have 70mil for scholarships.

I think you guys are operating from a fundamental misunderstanding how these gifts operate. You do understand that those endowments aren't typically used directly for handing out scholarships, themselves, do you? Typically, all gifts go immediately into some kind of an interest accruing investment. It's the yearly interest that is then taken and used to provide scholarships. That's why you have "endowed" scholarships or "endowed" faculty chairs. I think there's even a link somewhere on Maurer's website that says, "$200k" endows a $10k scholarship in perpetuity or something like that. The notion that there is a finite pool of money that is slowly drying up is misplaced... it doesn't work that way.

I've also heard that Indiana plans on cutting its average law school class down to 180 from the 220-240 it's been averaging. I think they're planning on keeping these scholarships up for a while.

[flexityflex86]

Good to see I started a big convo, but this is what I thought: the responses are all over the place, and I'll just have to decide for myself.

[danquayle]

I don't work in Big Law, I don't want to work in Big Law, and I will not work in Big Law

I'm actually going for Crim defense as well, public defender to be precise

I'm not at all trying to dissuade you from going to IUB, and w/ 120k it's not a bad deal... BUT I'd caution you against going there if you want to end up working in California... unless you have decent connections in the state.

My only point is that the rankings ought not factor in. Not even as a tie breaker... there's just no good evidence that shows that the USNWR rankings have any effect on employment.

Well, I agree with you. The rank themselves shouldn't matter. But the trend in rankings should matter. They indirectly indicate the class profile, management and wealth of a school and whether those things are going in the right direction. There's no disputing that Indiana is the ugly duckling of the top 25. But the longer it keeps getting talked about in that grouping, the more association it'll have wit those elite institutions. And there are PLENTY of examples of that effect. Hell, its the very reason the Ivy League started to begin with. Even the "worst" Ivy League schools still get great applicants who just want to be in the Ivy League. That's why a school like Brown, even though it pales in comparison in many regards to the rest of the Ivy League and indeed many of the best publics, will still continue getting great applicants year after year.

If you want a more obvious example, just look at the Big 10. It's largely an athletic conference, but the association is still one that other universities seek to benefit from. Witness the rise of Penn State's academics following its joining of the conference. Watch what'll happen to Nebraska over the next decade.

Maybe I have a unique perspective on this. I came at a time when Indiana was ranked 36th. At that time, Indiana was considered at best a peer institution of Wisconsin and Ohio State, and probably the worst of those schools. The comparisons were Indiana v. Wisconsin/George Mason/American/Georgia/Tennessee/Kentucky. I saw an immediate change once Indiana hit #23 in 2009. I know that's silly, but it's true. The comparisons became Indiana v. ND/Illinois/BC/BU/Emory/WashU. When I saw that change, I was convinced that the rankings had some cache. And as far as I can see... it's worked in terms of student pedigree. IU's class profiles have gone up consistently and dramatically.

If you follow the logic that employers only use schools as a filter for the quality of students, which I do, to me it's only a matter of time that Indiana improves it's placement. This, of course, assumes Indiana maintains a strong student profile. And I'm talking like over the course of 10 years, if not 20 years.

[Borhas]

One additional thing,

it's not OUR chatter that matters (and even our chatter is turning away from comparing IUB to ND/Illinois/Wisc/OSU and instead to Loyola Chicago)...

it's the chatter of people 2-3 generations older than us (40-60 yo's)

can that chatter sustain itself for 20-40 years? What happens when students that could have gone to ND or Ill. and have those sorts of career prospects graduate and learn that their prospects are not better than Loyola Chicago. Will that chatter remain upbeat? Or will resentment take hold?

The point is law school students graduate in 3 years, the effects you are talking about will require at least 20-40 years EVEN IF USNWR is as pervasive as it is (and will continue to be). The employment prospects will not catch up, and students hoping to catch "Schools on the Rise" will be sorely disappointed.

Lastly, you assume Big Law (proxy for pretentious legal world in general) cares about student quality... I'm not convinced. I think they care a shit ton about "prestige," but actual intelligence? I doubt it. They want billable hour machines, not philosophers. They just need the "prestige" to convince their clients that the money is worth it. That's probably the second biggest reason employment prospects will trail any change in reputation (USNWR or otherwise).

[danquayle]

I'm not arguing against the general idea that reputation matters in the world, I'm arguing that there is yet to be any evidence that employment prospects have followed USNWR rankings. And they haven't. True, data is really lacking, but USNWR is fairly new thing. (started in 1988?), and it does have competition from other purported rankings. Frankly, I think USNWR gets the most exposure from people like us, and people like us are becoming increasingly aware of its detractions.

So far your theory doesn't have evidence. Why is that? Well it depends on a lot of factors, time, exposure, substantial benefit (Big Ten schools receive substantial benefits as well for example, I think they cooperate on a lot of academic projects... it's not merely a list, and it's not a rapidly fluctuating list, and to my knowledge PSU is still not that highly regarded)

Lastly, I expect the ABA to force schools to publish legit LEGAL employment data in the next few years, as the tuition bubble begins to burst... that'll be the end of the USNWR as we know it. Perhaps that won't happen... but even if it doesn't, the evidence shows that a time span of ten years still doesn't seem to be enough.

If not 10 years then how many before there's an actual benefit? 25? 50 years?

Well, do you have employment records that into 1995 for Wash U or BU? They made their biggest leaps well before the years you have accounted for. They were both high 30s/low 40s for most of the 90s, making gigantic strides beginning early 2000 (before your data for Wash U). I think comparing the placement of BU versus BC over 20 years from 1990 would be a good case study on the validity of the US News Rankings. BC was around 20-25 in the early 90s, whereas BU was around 40. It seems clear to me that BU is now stronger than BC for Big Law (and, presumably, most) employment. If that was the case in 1990, then US News would seem to be neither a good catalyst nor a good reflection of big law placement. But if BU was not stronger than BC in 1995, then US News might have some validity as either a catalyst or reflection. Granted, there are tons of extraneous variables to consider, but there aren't many other viable case studies available.

And I think there's a fundamentally wrong assertion throughout TLS that these rankings "only matter to 0Ls." That's clearly (and obviously) incorrect, as it can be EASILY proven that it matters very deeply to the administration of most law schools. If it matters to those people, who have been in the legal education game for decades, then I think there's some credibility there. IMHO, buying into the "law rankings don't matter" hype takes as much of a leap of faith to believe than the "law rankings do matter" hype. Too many careers have been ruined and too much money has been spent at the altar of US News to just dismiss it like much of TLS wants to.

The reality is probably somewhere in between... law school rankings do not matter absolutely, but may matter conditionally.

[Borhas]

Well, do you have employment records that into 1995 for Wash U or BU? They made their biggest leaps well before the years you have accounted for. They were both high 30s/low 40s for most of the 90s, making gigantic strides beginning early 2000 (before your data for Wash U). I think comparing the placement of BU versus BC over from 1990 would be a good case study on the validity of the US News Rankings. BC was around 20-25 in the early 90s, whereas BU was around 40. It seems clear to me that BU is now stronger than BC for Big Law (and, presumably, most) employment. If that was the case in 1990, then US News would seem to be neither a good catalyst or a good reflection of big law placement. But if it wasn't the case, then US News might have some validity.

unfortunately I do not, I've looked really hard, but the earliest NLJ 250 data I have is from 2005. If we could get that data it would be an excellent way to clarify this issue.

And I think there's a fundamentally wrong assertion throughout TLS that these rankings "only matter to 0Ls." That's clearly (and obviously) incorrect, as it can be EASILY proven that it matters very deeply to the administration of most law schools. If it matters to those people, who have been in the legal education game for decades, then I think there's some credibility there. IMHO, buying into the "law rankings don't matter" hype takes as much of a leap of faith to believe than the "law rankings do matter" hype. Too many careers have been ruined and too much money spent has been spent at the altar of US News for to just dismiss it like many on TLS want to.

The reality is probably somewhere in between... law school rankings do not matter absolutely, but may matter conditionally.

huh? USNWR means more to people here than anywhere else. It's like the gold standard here, whereas in the rest of the world USNWR is just a lame magazine.

But you are right, they do matter to academics, not sure they are the best barometer since they tend to be so insulated from the world. But there's no reason to get into whether their opinion matters or not, because it's so much more subjective...


The Truth will set us free...all we need is true employment data.



EDIT: Re: WUSTL rankings

Pre 1994 not ranked (but the ranks were only T25 back then I think...)

'94: 48
'95: 29
'96: 31
'97: 37
'98: 31
'99: 33.5

they basically stayed in 30's from 1995 through 2002 until they made their leap into the T20

[danquayle]

Well, do you have employment records that into 1995 for Wash U or BU? They made their biggest leaps well before the years you have accounted for. They were both high 30s/low 40s for most of the 90s, making gigantic strides beginning early 2000 (before your data for Wash U). I think comparing the placement of BU versus BC over from 1990 would be a good case study on the validity of the US News Rankings. BC was around 20-25 in the early 90s, whereas BU was around 40. It seems clear to me that BU is now stronger than BC for Big Law (and, presumably, most) employment. If that was the case in 1990, then US News would seem to be neither a good catalyst or a good reflection of big law placement. But if it wasn't the case, then US News might have some validity.

unfortunately I do not, I've looked really hard, but the earliest NLJ 250 data I have is from 2005. If we could get that data it would be an excellent way to clarify this issue.

And I think there's a fundamentally wrong assertion throughout TLS that these rankings "only matter to 0Ls." That's clearly (and obviously) incorrect, as it can be EASILY proven that it matters very deeply to the administration of most law schools. If it matters to those people, who have been in the legal education game for decades, then I think there's some credibility there. IMHO, buying into the "law rankings don't matter" hype takes as much of a leap of faith to believe than the "law rankings do matter" hype. Too many careers have been ruined and too much money spent has been spent at the altar of US News for to just dismiss it like many on TLS want to.

The reality is probably somewhere in between... law school rankings do not matter absolutely, but may matter conditionally.

huh? USNWR means more to people here than anywhere else. It's like the gold standard here, whereas in the rest of the world USNWR is just a lame magazine.

But you are right, they do matter to academics, not sure they are the best barometer since they tend to be so insulated from the world. But there's no reason to get into whether their opinion matters or not, because it's so much more subjective...


The Truth will set us free...all we need is true employment data.

That's what it really all comes down to. We're all trying to get at a school's reputation here. That's what matters. That is evidenced in many ways. Right now, US News is one of the primary barometers. Employment stats will help a lot, and probably have more credibility than anything the US News ever did. But I say probably because... can we ever really trust self-reported employment data?

[Borhas]

yes, but we care about reputation because of what it accomplishes. Just because law school academics think of reps in a certain way, doesn't mean everyone else does, and it doesn't mean employers do.

====

NLJ 250 is not self reported, which is why I like using it

I think if the ABA requires grads to report their employment to the ABA, then we can really get the ball rolling... though I think that goes further than necessary... I think just standardizing the process, and requiring precise employment descriptions from the schools will suffice. As dishonest as law schools are... I don't think they'd outright lie once the ABA steps in.

[chrisnashville]

Why do people freak out when IU makes its "illegitimate" jump to #23? If you browse some of the "School vs. School" forums with schools in the 30s and 40s, you get pretty rational discussions about regional strengths, how the minor differences in BigLaw placement shouldn't sway you, etc. But USNWR decides that IU is ranked #23 and people from schools in that range start calling it a trash school. What's up with the country club attitude?

[danquayle]

Why do people freak out when IU makes its "illegitimate" jump to #23? If you browse some of the "School vs. School" forums with schools in the 30s and 40s, you get pretty rational discussions about regional strengths, how the minor differences in BigLaw placement shouldn't sway you, etc. But USNWR decides that IU is ranked #23 and people from schools in that range start calling it a trash school. What's up with the country club attitude?

It's a mixture of jealousy from those below and territory protection from those above. Ohio State and Illinois both see Indiana as a threat for 2 entirely different reasons. Ohio State wants to be Indiana (in terms of rankings at least) and Illinois wants to keep Indiana from becoming Illinois.

That way both schools can prevent Indiana from poaching students and/or jobs from either. It's the same reason people always dislike upsetting the status quo... they're worried about losing what they themselves currently have. It's very much true that Indiana can't place with Illinois right now, and places with or below Ohio State. And Illinois and Ohio State want it to stay that way.

[alexb]

http://newsinfo.iu.edu/news/page/normal/9420.html


"The gift qualifies for matching funds set aside by IU, through its "Matching the Promise" campaign, for the purpose of supporting endowed scholarships, fellowships and faculty positions. This will effectively double the annual distribution of income earned on the gift."

AKA they have 70mil for scholarships.

I think you guys are operating from a fundamental misunderstanding how these gifts operate. You do understand that those endowments aren't typically used directly for handing out scholarships, themselves, do you? Typically, all gifts go immediately into some kind of an interest accruing investment. It's the yearly interest that is then taken and used to provide scholarships. That's why you have "endowed" scholarships or "endowed" faculty chairs. I think there's even a link somewhere on Maurer's website that says, "$200k" endows a $10k scholarship in perpetuity or something like that. The notion that there is a finite pool of money that is slowly drying up is misplaced... it doesn't work that way.

I've also heard that Indiana plans on cutting its average law school class down to 180 from the 220-240 it's been averaging. I think they're planning on keeping these scholarships up for a while.

Ah, that makes sense. I was just trying to emphasize that they had matching funds, so a lot more money than people were thinking.

[nelaw2010]

It's a mixture of jealousy from those below and territory protection from those above. Ohio State and Illinois both see Indiana as a threat for 2 entirely different reasons. Ohio State wants to be Indiana (in terms of rankings at least) and Illinois wants to keep Indiana from becoming Illinois.

That way both schools can prevent Indiana from poaching students and/or jobs from either. It's the same reason people always dislike upsetting the status quo... they're worried about losing what they themselves currently have. It's very much true that Indiana can't place with Illinois right now, and places with or below Ohio State. And Illinois and Ohio State want it to stay that way.

Great points! It's always the guys in the middle or the bottom that fight hardest for the left-overs. The guys at the top sit back and enjoy the show. You'll never see a HUGE debate about who should be in the top 3. And the top 10 might fluctuate, but they are all seen as legitimate holders of their position.

But God forbid a school in the middle try to move up. ALL HELL BREAKS LOOSE!!!!

How are they doing it? Are they cheating? Is someone at the school blowing ALL employees of the USNWR????

Do you know what Leland Stanford did to make Stanford University a great school? He threw a ton of money at it!!! And what did that money get? They hired FORMER President Benjamin Harrison as a professor.

Ask yourself this, how did the top schools become the top schools? What methods did they use? How did they wield whatever power and influence they had at the time? You don't think they used their money and power to "game" the system?

Moreover, doesn't it make sense that schools at some point will move up and down in the rankings? Doesn't it make sense that things will change? How long do you expect the status quo to continue? Does anything in the history of humanity last forever? Look at the mighty Roman Empire. Most powerful empire in human history, yet they were defeated by "barbarians."

What in the ENTIRE history of humanity leads anyone to believe that things will NOT change? Of course they will change. Lower ranked schools will become innovative in trying to improve their rankings. Higher ranked schools will become complacent and falter.

How do I know? That's how things work. Look at IBM, Woolworths, Soviet Union, Roman Empire, Pan Am Airlines (there only about 10 billion other examples).

The only constant is change. The status quo will fight change, but change will come regardless.