Harvard 2011 Applicants Forum

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[mel2010]

I think everyone is missing the point. The question is does Harvard make a difference once you are hired? The answer is no, and if anything it is a negative ONCE YOU HAVE ALREADY BEEN HIRED.

This is not about students being nice and getting along. It is not about where Harvard grads can get hired. It is not about the unique opportunities Harvard provides.

The point is that being a Harvard grad does not help you be a better lawyer, even if it may help you get hired. RC people. RC.

This seems to be a relatively pointless point to make. That's like saying getting a high LSAT score won't make you a better law student but it will help you get into a better school. The entire point is being put in the position in the first place.

I think that there is a slight difference and that you are being very shortsighted. Student A attended Harvard and student B attended XYZ Law. Student A is hired at a large firm in New York but after working for 5 years, the partners are displeased with his work. He does not perform as well as they had expected he would. In fact, he seems not to understand that he needs to get in the trenches and produce work. They choose not to mentor him or get him on the partner track. They keep him off of important or high profile cases. Student B is hired at a less prestigious firm but produces high quality work. His managing partners love him and help carry him up the firm ladder. They get him involved in their high profile cases because they know they can rely on him and they want him to experience that kind of work. After a few years, student B decides to move on to a more prestigious firm and his partners reluctantly vouch for him and give amazing referrals. On top of this, Student B has paid his debt off in the first few years of employment while Student A is stuck in the lower ranks of his firm paying a large chunk of his salary towards his 30 year loan repayment plan. Which student would you rather be?

Is student A the way he is because he went to Harvard instead of XYZ? Is student B the way he is because he went to XYZ instead of Harvard?

[thecynic69]

I think everyone is missing the point. The question is does Harvard make a difference once you are hired? The answer is no, and if anything it is a negative ONCE YOU HAVE ALREADY BEEN HIRED.

This is not about students being nice and getting along. It is not about where Harvard grads can get hired. It is not about the unique opportunities Harvard provides.

The point is that being a Harvard grad does not help you be a better lawyer, even if it may help you get hired. RC people. RC.

You say attending Harvard is a negative, as if Harvard makes you a bad lawyer. The only way I've ever heard the "bad Harvard lawyer story" told is that the people who attend Harvard (and perhaps even more so, Yale) are not the sort of people who make good lawyers; this is just to say that we are more likely to be ivory tower academics, self-entitled assholes, or insert trait here that makes you a bad fit at a firm. If you have good evidence that Harvard does something (or fails to do something) that results in bad lawyers, do tell. I'm a lowly 0L, but all evidence I've come across suggests that the coursework etc. at top law schools is very similar, and that there is ample opportunity to get hands on/practical experience while a student at Harvard (and Yale).

In short, if people responding to your post dropped the RC ball, you dropped the LR ball by ignoring the obvious selection bias at work...

Subtle Yale-dropping twice.

Err, not sure what you are insinuating--I'm pretty sure I dumped on Yale extra...

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[thecynic69]

I think everyone is missing the point. The question is does Harvard make a difference once you are hired? The answer is no, and if anything it is a negative ONCE YOU HAVE ALREADY BEEN HIRED.

This is not about students being nice and getting along. It is not about where Harvard grads can get hired. It is not about the unique opportunities Harvard provides.

The point is that being a Harvard grad does not help you be a better lawyer, even if it may help you get hired. RC people. RC.

You say attending Harvard is a negative, as if Harvard makes you a bad lawyer. The only way I've ever heard the "bad Harvard lawyer story" told is that the people who attend Harvard (and perhaps even more so, Yale) are not the sort of people who make good lawyers; this is just to say that we are more likely to be ivory tower academics, self-entitled assholes, or insert trait here that makes you a bad fit at a firm. If you have good evidence that Harvard does something (or fails to do something) that results in bad lawyers, do tell. I'm a lowly 0L, but all evidence I've come across suggests that the coursework etc. at top law schools is very similar, and that there is ample opportunity to get hands on/practical experience while a student at Harvard (and Yale).

In short, if people responding to your post dropped the RC ball, you dropped the LR ball by ignoring the obvious selection bias at work...

Perhaps you didn't see the quote from a lawyer in my post that started this conversation?

Quite possibly missed a quote...PM it?

[sarahh]

I think that there is a slight difference and that you are being very shortsighted. Student A attended Harvard and student B attended XYZ Law. Student A is hired at a large firm in New York but after working for 5 years, the partners are displeased with his work. He does not perform as well as they had expected he would. In fact, he seems not to understand that he needs to get in the trenches and produce work. They choose not to mentor him or get him on the partner track. They keep him off of important or high profile cases. Student B is hired at a less prestigious firm but produces high quality work. His managing partners love him and help carry him up the firm ladder. They get him involved in their high profile cases because they know they can rely on him and they want him to experience that kind of work. After a few years, student B decides to move on to a more prestigious firm and his partners reluctantly vouch for him and give amazing referrals. On top of this, Student B has paid his debt off in the first few years of employment while Student A is stuck in the lower ranks of his firm paying a large chunk of his salary towards his 30 year loan repayment plan. Which student would you rather be?

The difference is the personality, not the schools. Harvard is not going to magically make someone lazy. I don't think anyone would argue that if you have a Harvard degree, the work you produce does not matter or that there are no people from other schools that will produce better work and be more successful than Harvard grads.

[Non-Chalant1]

I think everyone is missing the point. The question is does Harvard make a difference once you are hired? The answer is no, and if anything it is a negative ONCE YOU HAVE ALREADY BEEN HIRED.

This is not about students being nice and getting along. It is not about where Harvard grads can get hired. It is not about the unique opportunities Harvard provides.

The point is that being a Harvard grad does not help you be a better lawyer, even if it may help you get hired. RC people. RC.

This seems to be a relatively pointless point to make. That's like saying getting a high LSAT score won't make you a better law student but it will help you get into a better school. The entire point is being put in the position in the first place.

I think that there is a slight difference and that you are being very shortsighted. Student A attended Harvard and student B attended XYZ Law. Student A is hired at a large firm in New York but after working for 5 years, the partners are displeased with his work. He does not perform as well as they had expected he would. In fact, he seems not to understand that he needs to get in the trenches and produce work. They choose not to mentor him or get him on the partner track. They keep him off of important or high profile cases. Student B is hired at a less prestigious firm but produces high quality work. His managing partners love him and help carry him up the firm ladder. They get him involved in their high profile cases because they know they can rely on him and they want him to experience that kind of work. After a few years, student B decides to move on to a more prestigious firm and his partners reluctantly vouch for him and give amazing referrals. On top of this, Student B has paid his debt off in the first few years of employment while Student A is stuck in the lower ranks of his firm paying a large chunk of his salary towards his 30 year loan repayment plan. Which student would you rather be?

I would rather be a motivated person from Harvard. Your entire argument is based on the necessity that student A cannot do the work. Yet if he can then his opportunities are superior to that of the second individual. Thus you are admitting that going to Harvard is better for placement. The law school can not be expected to correct for character defects. Furthermore if student A is at a more prestigious firm they are probably being paid more in terms of bonuses and salary overall just based on the general law firm track. Unless you are assuming that the second person came out with less debt in the first place...how can you assume that after those few years their debt is paid off?

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[thecynic69]

I think we've identified the key issue. Some people think Harvard makes you a bad lawyer, other people think the future bad lawyers of America simply choose to attend Harvard, and I'm sure there are more than a few people out there who still think anyone who has attended, is attending, or will attend HLS is a god among men. I'm more or less done with this debate; it's nap time.

[20121109]

Confused. If Harvard churns out bad lawyers and you said Harvard gets you in the door, then it makes sense for me to say that it would be bad for me to go Harvard (assuming I want to be a good lawyer for the rest of my life rather than have the one time benefit at my hiring). I think my point was very related to what you argued, but perhaps I should have been more explicit in connecting the dots.

You really believe this? That Harvard is a factory that churns out bad lawyers?...Otherwise, why would you reasonably rely on it as a premise? Every school has the potential to churn out bad lawyers, but it's not a reflection of the school; it's a reflection of the student. So yeah, that's still a terrible reason for not wanting to attend HLS.

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[Nulli Secundus]

Let me get this straight, based on a hiring partner of one firm you know, you claim going to Harvard makes you unable to produce good / substantive legal work.

If the person in question is as retarded to allow his sense of entitlement stemming from being a Harvard graduate prevent him from adjusting to the realities of today's economic and professional life, Harvard is not the one to blame here. Dissemination of information is never perfect but regarding legal market and the nature of the work expected from you in a big law firm, I think, everyone has a good idea by now. This is especially true for people putting in the hard work to obtain the numbers necessary to make Harvard admission possible. Working and working hard toward a goal needs motivation and for motivation you need to know what you will gain and what will be expected from you in return. Therefore I am sure, Harvard students know the realities of ITE just fine and while I cannot speak for that specific hiring partner or why he is butthurt, there is no consensus whatsoever regarding your claims about quality of work done by HLS graduates.

[mel2010]

Ooh ooh I wanna get in on the last post frenzy!

From perusing the partner listings at top firms, I'm quite skeptical of the claim that Harvard alumns are bad lawyers and thus don't make partner. Harvard dominates those listings, and I'd tend to prefer that tangible evidence over one hiring partner's opinion.

Disclaimer: I am not going to Harvard, and I'm not aiming for firm work.

[WestOfTheRest]

So when do we get to hear from hls?

[lzyovrachievr]

Man, Harvard needs to send out some decisions so that this thread stops trying to eat its own brain.

Agree.

[Xifeng]

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[WestOfTheRest]

Man, Harvard needs to send out some decisions so that this thread stops trying to eat its own brain.

Words from the always wise nr.

[ebeth]

Holy cow. I log in to find there's been this huge discussion. To add my own opinion, I think the following is completely unfair:

I think everyone is missing the point. The question is does Harvard make a difference once you are hired? The answer is no, and if anything it is a negative ONCE YOU HAVE ALREADY BEEN HIRED.

I am 100% confident that I can use a Harvard education to become a better lawyer. To say that I can't is ridiculous.

Also, here are some more opinions of lawyers:

http://www.usnews.com/education/best-gr ... dium=email

I think we all know how credible USNWR rankings are

[sonervous88]

Man, Harvard needs to send out some decisions so that this thread stops trying to eat its own brain.

Words from the always wise nr.

im so glad you said that. i've been reading this all day thinking that this is a discussion that should be where people already got in. not for those of us who are obsessively waiting to hear lol

[Nulli Secundus]

Here is a picture of us, sitting in this thread, looking out the window:

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[sonervous88]

Man, Harvard needs to send out some decisions so that this thread stops trying to eat its own brain.

Words from the always wise nr.

im so glad you said that. i've been reading this all day thinking that this is a discussion that should be where people already got in. not for those of us who are obsessively waiting to hear lol

Sorry

I just wanted to make people feel better and it derailed into current and soon to be current students defending their decisions and me arguing back. That was a mistake

omg no! all comments greatly appreciated and informative. its just that everytime someone posts something i keep checking to see if i need to check my email. im compulsive. totally not your problem

[sonervous88]

btw guys really sorry for pushing it to 180 i know a lot of you have a complex about that number