NYU Class of 2015 Applicants Forum

[avd90]

If you've had dealings with the dean before, it's fine.
If you've never had any contact with kleinrock before, then don't

this. Addressing it to him is fine, but if you haven't already dealt directly with him, it's probably best to send it to the general email

CONGRATS ON NORTHWESTERN, J. Keep us all posted with the updates!

[jim-green]

Anyone know which is a better approximation for 'biglaw': the at % of the class NYU places into NLJ250 or the % of the class in firms > 501 people?
NYU's website employment stats say 50% of the 2010 class was placed in firms > 501 people, while the NLJ250 go to list says 40% of NYU's 2011 class was placed into NLJ250.

Similarly, Berkeley's website says 32% of the 2011 class was placed in firms > 501 people, while the NLJ250 go to list says 46% of Cal's 2011 class was placed into NLJ250.

[dingbat]

The truth lies somewhere in between. Basically, the differences are:
1) snapshot taken at a different time
2) some firms don't report
3) some students don't report
4) (not sure how staff attorneys are counted)
I believe that all firms 500+ are NLJ250, but not other way around

[jim-green]

The truth lies somewhere in between. Basically, the differences are:
1) snapshot taken at a different time
2) some firms don't report
3) some students don't report
4) (not sure how staff attorneys are counted)
I believe that all firms 500+ are NLJ250, but not other way around

This could account for the difference between the 50% and 40% numbers for of NYU, but the difference in the 32% and 46% numbers for Cal is huge. Not sure which to trust.

[Tiago Splitter]

The truth lies somewhere in between. Basically, the differences are:
1) snapshot taken at a different time
2) some firms don't report
3) some students don't report
4) (not sure how staff attorneys are counted)
I believe that all firms 500+ are NLJ250, but not other way around

This could account for the difference between the 50% and 40% numbers for of NYU, but the difference in the 32% and 46% numbers for Cal is huge. Not sure which to trust.

NLJ 250 goes down to 160 firm attorneys, which explains Berkeley.

Under-reporting issues among NYC firms explain NYU's discrepancy.

[dingbat]

The truth lies somewhere in between. Basically, the differences are:
1) snapshot taken at a different time
2) some firms don't report
3) some students don't report
4) (not sure how staff attorneys are counted)
I believe that all firms 500+ are NLJ250, but not other way around

This could account for the difference between the 50% and 40% numbers for of NYU, but the difference in the 32% and 46% numbers for Cal is huge. Not sure which to trust.

Simple - dont trust either and just figure that the truth is somewhere in between
(I actually think sometimes the truth might be a bigger number, but I'm only familiar with the NY market and the schools that feed into it)

[Tiago Splitter]

For Jim:

http://www.law.nyu.edu/news/REBUTTAL

[jim-green]

For Jim: http://www.law.nyu.edu/news/REBUTTAL

Thanks! Good article. NYU states, "We have strong, longstanding relationships with these firms, and if they did not provide the data, we similarly did not disclose it."
However, my problem is that NYU does seem to be disclosing the number. NLJ says 40% and NYU says 50%. Am I missing something?

[Tiago Splitter]

For Jim: http://www.law.nyu.edu/news/REBUTTAL

Thanks! Good article. NYU states, "We have strong, longstanding relationships with these firms, and if they did not provide the data, we similarly did not disclose it."
However, my problem is that NYU does seem to be disclosing the number. NLJ says 40% and NYU says 50%. Am I missing something?

The NLJ data is reported by firms. NYU's data comes from surveys of their recently graduated students. In many cases the firm, for whatever reason, didn't disclose an NYU grad as having been hired when the NLJ survey came around. That same grad would have indicated that she had a job with an NLJ 250 firm to NYU's career services office, which is why the discrepancy comes up.

[birdlaw117]

For Jim: http://www.law.nyu.edu/news/REBUTTAL

Thanks! Good article. NYU states, "We have strong, longstanding relationships with these firms, and if they did not provide the data, we similarly did not disclose it."
However, my problem is that NYU does seem to be disclosing the number. NLJ says 40% and NYU says 50%. Am I missing something?

The NLJ data is reported by firms. NYU's data comes from surveys of their recently graduated students. In many cases the firm, for whatever reason, didn't disclose an NYU grad as having been hired when the NLJ survey came around. That same grad would have indicated that she had a job with an NLJ 250 firm to NYU's career services office, which is why the discrepancy comes up.

And when 71 out of 250 firms don't report data, that can create a pretty big gap in the data.

[jim-green]

The NLJ data is reported by firms. NYU's data comes from surveys of their recently graduated students. In many cases the firm, for whatever reason, didn't disclose an NYU grad as having been hired when the NLJ survey came around. That same grad would have indicated that she had a job with an NLJ 250 firm to NYU's career services office, which is why the discrepancy comes up.

OK, thanks, but NYU's article you sent me says, "if they (firms) did not provide the data, we similarly did not disclose it." That means NYU's career office does not report it either, yet has a higher % than the firms report.

[jim-green]

The NLJ data is reported by firms. NYU's data comes from surveys of their recently graduated students. In many cases the firm, for whatever reason, didn't disclose an NYU grad as having been hired when the NLJ survey came around. That same grad would have indicated that she had a job with an NLJ 250 firm to NYU's career services office, which is why the discrepancy comes up.

And when 71 out of 250 firms don't report data, that can create a pretty big gap in the data.[/quote]I agree, thanks.

[birdlaw117]

The NLJ data is reported by firms. NYU's data comes from surveys of their recently graduated students. In many cases the firm, for whatever reason, didn't disclose an NYU grad as having been hired when the NLJ survey came around. That same grad would have indicated that she had a job with an NLJ 250 firm to NYU's career services office, which is why the discrepancy comes up.

OK, thanks, but NYU's article you sent me says, "if they (firms) did not provide the data, we similarly did not disclose it." That means NYU's career office does not report it either, yet has a higher % than the firms report.

No, it means they don't report it to NLJ. Not that they don't report it in their own data. They would have to compile a list of which students are at which firms and then compare that to the list of firms that didn't report to the NLJ. I'm not so sure that NYU knows which firm the students worked at. They may just know what category of firm students work at. In which case, they wouldn't be able to accurately report.

[Tiago Splitter]

The NLJ data is reported by firms. NYU's data comes from surveys of their recently graduated students. In many cases the firm, for whatever reason, didn't disclose an NYU grad as having been hired when the NLJ survey came around. That same grad would have indicated that she had a job with an NLJ 250 firm to NYU's career services office, which is why the discrepancy comes up.

OK, thanks, but NYU's article you sent me says, "if they (firms) did not provide the data, we similarly did not disclose it." That means NYU's career office does not report it either, yet has a higher % than the firms report.

They said they didn't disclose it to the NLJ when the NLJ came to them looking for additional info to fill in the gaps.

" It happens that quite a few of the firms that do not release data to the NLJ are major New York-based firms that typically hire a lot of NYU Law grads. We have strong, longstanding relationships with these firms, and if they did not provide the data, we similarly did not disclose it. During its data-gathering process this year, the NLJ sent us a list of NLJ 250 firms that had reported hiring NYU Law 2011 graduates, including the number at each firm. But 21 NLJ 250 firms that hired a total of 58 of our 2011 graduates were missing from the list, and, when asked, the NLJ told us that was because these firms did not provide information."

NYU didn't volunteer any information to the NLJ beyond what the firms gave. Had they done so, they would have looked better when the final numbers came out.

For employment data, use the school websites. As long as the reporting % is sufficiently high (greater than 90%) there is nothing to worry about. Both Berkeley and NYU are telling the truth.

[jim-green]

No, it means they don't report it to NLJ. Not that they don't report it in their own data. They would have to compile a list of which students are at which firms and then compare that to the list of firms that didn't report to the NLJ. I'm not so sure that NYU knows which firm the students worked at. They may just know what category of firm students work at. In which case, they wouldn't be able to accurately report.

Thanks for explaining!

[Mal Reynolds]

No, it means they don't report it to NLJ. Not that they don't report it in their own data. They would have to compile a list of which students are at which firms and then compare that to the list of firms that didn't report to the NLJ. I'm not so sure that NYU knows which firm the students worked at. They may just know what category of firm students work at. In which case, they wouldn't be able to accurately report.

Thanks for explaining!Long Live Birdlaw.

FTFM.

[jim-green]

NYU didn't volunteer any information to the NLJ beyond what the firms gave. Had they done so, they would have looked better when the final numbers came out. For employment data, use the school websites. As long as the reporting % is sufficiently high (greater than 90%) there is nothing to worry about. Both Berkeley and NYU are telling the truth.

OK, thanks! I guess then to get a better picture of the % of the class in market-paying firm jobs, I could go to the school's websites and add the % of students in > 501 size firms and the % of students in > 250 size firms.

[law2015]

Maybe some movement off the waitlist this week, considering deposit deadline was on friday.

[dingbat]

NYU didn't volunteer any information to the NLJ beyond what the firms gave. Had they done so, they would have looked better when the final numbers came out. For employment data, use the school websites. As long as the reporting % is sufficiently high (greater than 90%) there is nothing to worry about. Both Berkeley and NYU are telling the truth.

OK, thanks! I guess then to get a better picture of the % of the class in market-paying firm jobs, I could go to the school's websites and add the % of students in > 501 size firms and the % of students in > 250 size firms.

And take it with a grain of salt.
If you read around this forum (and other websites) enough, you'll develop a healthy scepticism of self-reported employment data.

Keep in mind that none of the major employment statistics (self reported, ABA, NLJ250)* are perfect. Read them in conjunction with each other and figure out a reasonable balance and acceptable assumptions/ranges. (as an example, at a different school I analyzed, biglaw accounted for 10-15%, with clerkships at 5-10% and unemployment at 20-50%. That's a wide range, but enough for the person I provided this to to get a good understanding of the likely outcome)

*I have a feeling I'm missing something here...

[dingbat]

Maybe some movement off the waitlist this week, considering deposit deadline was on friday.

Considering how slow NYU has been this cycle, I'd be surprised to have such a speedy turnaround

[JamMasterJ]

When is the first round of WL>admits happening?

[birdlaw117]

When is the first round of WL>admits happening?

Based on last year my guess is sometime next week. Gives them a full business week after the deposit deadline to reassess things and figure out who they should admit. That seems about right to me.

[JamMasterJ]

When is the first round of WL>admits happening?

Based on last year my guess is sometime next week. Gives them a full business week after the deposit deadline to reassess things and figure out who they should admit. That seems about right to me.

so right after my NU deposit is due? Awesome

[jim-green]

so right after my NU deposit is due? Awesome

Jerry Springer received his law degree from NU

[birdlaw117]

When is the first round of WL>admits happening?

Based on last year my guess is sometime next week. Gives them a full business week after the deposit deadline to reassess things and figure out who they should admit. That seems about right to me.

so right after my NU deposit is due? Awesome

Yep! But that's always how these things work out. Deposits seems like you're wasting a bunch of money if you back out, but it's actually pretty much nothing in the grand scheme of things.