Harvard Law c/o 2021 Applicants (2017-2018) Forum

[Llamas]

Well, there was a previous poster in this thread who mentioned they got a JS1 with like a 170/165 verbal quant split.

I wouldn't read into the quant percentile too much. I think you also have to consider the combined percentile; so what is a 335/340 (170+165) in terms of percentile? I imagine it's really high. But since GRE doesn't report these combined percentiles we don't know.

Spivey answered my question regarding the GRE. He said he doesn't even know if schools are completely certain on how the USNWR incorporates the GRE. He said he'll have someone call and ask. There are 3 possibilities right now for people with both an LSAT and GRE:

(1) USNWR takes only the higher percentile score. This is obviously the most lenient scenario where it helps everyone with both an LSAT sand GRE score. But this would be contingent on the GRE (secretly) releasing the combined percentile so that an adequate comparison between LSAT and GRE can be made.

(2) USNWR considers only LSAT if you have both GRE or LSAT. This favors people like myself who have a superior LSAT. But if this is the case, why would HLS require people to report random GRE scores? Maybe for data collection...

(3) USNWR considers both. But this opens a can of worms in terms of their rankings calculus. So does a candidate with both scores have their percentiles averaged? Or does the USNWR have a separate LSAT and separate GRE statistic, and such a candidate would influence both stats? If it's the latter, this creates a scenario where you can now be a double splitter, where you bring down LSAT and/or GRE medians. But then this would incentivize some people to take both LSAT and GRE so that they have both a 175+ and a 335+ combined GRE. But this directly contradicts the spirit of HLS's pilot program in terms of alleviating burden of test.

i'm not sure if Q score wouldn't matter, it seems hard to justify picking only a section of the test score as an admissions policy. i think there are deeper reasons for GRE score program this year that specifically serve the school's interests than what's public rn.

i took gre w/o any prep long ago, it's a cakewalk compared to lsat. wondering if retaking gre makes sense now.

I completely agree that Quant score WILL matter. When I said I wouldn't read into the percentile too much, I meant that I wouldn't try to equate the Quant 97th percentile to the LSAT 97th percentile. I meant more that I would think Harvard doesn't necessarily care about the Quant percentile by itself, but more so in the context of the combined percentile. Like someone can get away with a 168 on Quant if they got extra two points on the Verbal. Kind of how like admissions currently don't care if you got minus 1 on the RC or LG on the LSAT. I feel like they will care more about GRE combined than individual sections. But that's just my speculation.

[lobsicle]

Edit: Especially seems unfair because GRE-takers tend to focus on the single section that is important for their planned graduate program. E.g., if engineering, you study math.

i guess the irony is that if someone is applying to grad engineering after ug engineering degree, then they wouldn't probably need to study for a good quant score. gre as a test is almost never used as a basis for admissions in grad programs as strongly as lsat was in law schools.

What you say is true, some people might not need to study very hard to get a good score for the section they want. But my point is that GRE-takers tend to focus only on a single section for grad school purposes, especially because they never planned on sending it to law schools.

If someone is a 170V/160Q because they're thinking about English grad school, but could have been closer to 170V/170Q if they had tried, it's not exactly fair to make them report the GRE. Because they didn't take the test for law school. But everyone who takes the LSAT obviously takes it for law school. So I'm not sure that, just because people can't avoid reporting the LSAT, that it is fair to make everyone who's taken the GRE to report it.

Basically I get that HLS is trying to make things fair by requiring submission of GRE scores if you have them, but I don't agree that it actually is fair.

[trkmaniak00]

Edit: Especially seems unfair because GRE-takers tend to focus on the single section that is important for their planned graduate program. E.g., if engineering, you study math.

i guess the irony is that if someone is applying to grad engineering after ug engineering degree, then they wouldn't probably need to study for a good quant score. gre as a test is almost never used as a basis for admissions in grad programs as strongly as lsat was in law schools.

What you say is true, some people might not need to study very hard to get a good score for the section they want. But my point is that GRE-takers tend to focus only on a single section for grad school purposes, especially because they never planned on sending it to law schools.

If someone is a 170V/160Q because they're thinking about English grad school, but could have been closer to 170V/170Q if they had tried, it's not exactly fair to make them report the GRE. Because they didn't take the test for law school. But everyone who takes the LSAT obviously takes it for law school. So I'm not sure that, just because people can't avoid reporting the LSAT, that it is fair to make everyone who's taken the GRE to report it.

Basically I get that HLS is trying to make things fair by requiring submission of GRE scores if you have them, but I don't agree that it actually is fair.

I think this angle is assuming that H is going for fairness. For all we know this could be a stipulation to appease USNews rankings. Otherwise, schools would be admitting students and only reporting one test or the other for each student, but if USNews is taking both scores into consideration then making everyone submit all scores would actually be a necessity without any consideration to fairness.

Edit: Also, there are all types of unfairness in the law school admissions game. I.E. kids who took AP science classes in high school and didn't do well never thought that that grade would come back again. Or schools that offer A+ grades while many don't. At the end of the day, it needs to be uniform and there will be some winners and some losers which is unfortunate.

[Llamas]

Edit: Especially seems unfair because GRE-takers tend to focus on the single section that is important for their planned graduate program. E.g., if engineering, you study math.

i guess the irony is that if someone is applying to grad engineering after ug engineering degree, then they wouldn't probably need to study for a good quant score. gre as a test is almost never used as a basis for admissions in grad programs as strongly as lsat was in law schools.

What you say is true, some people might not need to study very hard to get a good score for the section they want. But my point is that GRE-takers tend to focus only on a single section for grad school purposes, especially because they never planned on sending it to law schools.

If someone is a 170V/160Q because they're thinking about English grad school, but could have been closer to 170V/170Q if they had tried, it's not exactly fair to make them report the GRE. Because they didn't take the test for law school. But everyone who takes the LSAT obviously takes it for law school. So I'm not sure that, just because people can't avoid reporting the LSAT, that it is fair to make everyone who's taken the GRE to report it.

Basically I get that HLS is trying to make things fair by requiring submission of GRE scores if you have them, but I don't agree that it actually is fair.

I think this angle is assuming that H is going for fairness. For all we know this could be a stipulation to appease USNews rankings. Otherwise, schools would be admitting students and only reporting one test or the other for each student, but if USNews is taking both scores into consideration then making everyone submit all scores would actually be a necessity without any consideration to fairness.

But in this scenario, applicants who take both tests and score well would have an edge in the admissions process over applicants who only take one, since the former can boost two medians instead of just one.

I think HLS has explicitly stated that taking both tests would not boost your chances (although I have no source for this so maybe I'm just spreading hearsay). But if this is true, I don't think USNWR handles GRE this way, since I highly doubt HLS had any uncertainty on how USNWR would handle GREs before they announced their pilot program. I just think there's a lack of information being disclosed to the public right now.

[lobsicle]

Edit: Especially seems unfair because GRE-takers tend to focus on the single section that is important for their planned graduate program. E.g., if engineering, you study math.

i guess the irony is that if someone is applying to grad engineering after ug engineering degree, then they wouldn't probably need to study for a good quant score. gre as a test is almost never used as a basis for admissions in grad programs as strongly as lsat was in law schools.

What you say is true, some people might not need to study very hard to get a good score for the section they want. But my point is that GRE-takers tend to focus only on a single section for grad school purposes, especially because they never planned on sending it to law schools.

If someone is a 170V/160Q because they're thinking about English grad school, but could have been closer to 170V/170Q if they had tried, it's not exactly fair to make them report the GRE. Because they didn't take the test for law school. But everyone who takes the LSAT obviously takes it for law school. So I'm not sure that, just because people can't avoid reporting the LSAT, that it is fair to make everyone who's taken the GRE to report it.

Basically I get that HLS is trying to make things fair by requiring submission of GRE scores if you have them, but I don't agree that it actually is fair.

I think this angle is assuming that H is going for fairness. For all we know this could be a stipulation to appease USNews rankings. Otherwise, schools would be admitting students and only reporting one test or the other for each student, but if USNews is taking both scores into consideration then making everyone submit all scores would actually be a necessity without any consideration to fairness.

Edit: Also, there are all types of unfairness in the law school admissions game. I.E. kids who took AP science classes in high school and didn't do well never thought that that grade would come back again. Or schools that offer A+ grades while many don't. At the end of the day, it needs to be uniform and there will be some winners and some losers which is unfortunate.

What you say is true. There will always be quirks in the admissions process that are unfair. But the admissions website does state that the reason those who wish to report only LSAT must still report both tests in an approach to reaching "parity." I take this as an attempt at fairness, but maybe a misguided one. Although this is simply what they're saying outwardly, while their actual policy may be motivated by something else.

[appind]

Although this is simply what they're saying outwardly, while their actual policy may be motivated by something else.

this

[Llamas]

Edit: Especially seems unfair because GRE-takers tend to focus on the single section that is important for their planned graduate program. E.g., if engineering, you study math.

i guess the irony is that if someone is applying to grad engineering after ug engineering degree, then they wouldn't probably need to study for a good quant score. gre as a test is almost never used as a basis for admissions in grad programs as strongly as lsat was in law schools.

What you say is true, some people might not need to study very hard to get a good score for the section they want. But my point is that GRE-takers tend to focus only on a single section for grad school purposes, especially because they never planned on sending it to law schools.

If someone is a 170V/160Q because they're thinking about English grad school, but could have been closer to 170V/170Q if they had tried, it's not exactly fair to make them report the GRE. Because they didn't take the test for law school. But everyone who takes the LSAT obviously takes it for law school. So I'm not sure that, just because people can't avoid reporting the LSAT, that it is fair to make everyone who's taken the GRE to report it.

Basically I get that HLS is trying to make things fair by requiring submission of GRE scores if you have them, but I don't agree that it actually is fair.

I think this angle is assuming that H is going for fairness. For all we know this could be a stipulation to appease USNews rankings. Otherwise, schools would be admitting students and only reporting one test or the other for each student, but if USNews is taking both scores into consideration then making everyone submit all scores would actually be a necessity without any consideration to fairness.

Edit: Also, there are all types of unfairness in the law school admissions game. I.E. kids who took AP science classes in high school and didn't do well never thought that that grade would come back again. Or schools that offer A+ grades while many don't. At the end of the day, it needs to be uniform and there will be some winners and some losers which is unfortunate.

What you say is true. There will always be quirks in the admissions process that are unfair. But the admissions website does state that the reason those who wish to report only LSAT must still report both tests in an approach to reaching "parity." I take this as an attempt at fairness, but maybe a misguided one. Although this is simply what they're saying outwardly, while their actual policy may be motivated by something else.

Couldn't we also interpret this statement as saying they are trying to achieve fairness in the fact that SINCE LSAT takers have to report all scores, so should GRE takers.

For example, let's say Student A took the LSAT twice and due to the nature of the LSAC has to report both scores. But Student B took the GRE 5 times in one year and magically scored a perfect score, while completely bombing the other attemps. Since ETS allows score select, Student B could just report that perfect score and hide the others. Therefore HLS requires ALL GRE scores from the past 5 years to promote "parity" between GRE applicants and LSAT applicants.

[lobsicle]

Couldn't we also interpret this statement as saying they are trying to achieve fairness in the fact that SINCE LSAT takers have to report all scores, so should GRE takers.

For example, let's say Student A took the LSAT twice and due to the nature of the LSAC has to report both scores. But Student B took the GRE 5 times in one year and magically scored a perfect score, while completely bombing the other sections. Since ETS allows score select, Student B could just report that perfect score and hide the others. Therefore HLS requires ALL GRE scores from the past 5 years to promote "parity" between GRE applicants and LSAT applicants.

I agree it's fair for GRE takers to report all scores since LSAT takers have to report all scores.

What I'm trying to say is that the policy of "If you take the GRE, then you have to report it out of fairness, because we receive LSAT scores even if you only want us to see your GRE", is an attempt at fairness--Those with good GREs but bad LSATs can't avoid reporting the LSAT, so HLS reasons, those with good LSATs but worse GREs shouldn't be able to avoid reporting the GRE. But the difference is that everyone takes the LSAT for law school, while most people took the GRE for something completely unrelated and they probably didn't care what they scored on at least one of the sections.

[appind]

Couldn't we also interpret this statement as saying they are trying to achieve fairness in the fact that SINCE LSAT takers have to report all scores, so should GRE takers.

For example, let's say Student A took the LSAT twice and due to the nature of the LSAC has to report both scores. But Student B took the GRE 5 times in one year and magically scored a perfect score, while completely bombing the other sections. Since ETS allows score select, Student B could just report that perfect score and hide the others. Therefore HLS requires ALL GRE scores from the past 5 years to promote "parity" between GRE applicants and LSAT applicants.

I agree it's fair for GRE takers to report all scores since LSAT takers have to report all scores.

What I'm trying to say is that the policy of "If you take the GRE, then you have to report it out of fairness, because we receive LSAT scores even if you only want us to see your GRE", is an attempt at fairness--Those with good GREs but bad LSATs can't avoid reporting the LSAT, so HLS reasons, those with good LSATs but worse GREs shouldn't be able to avoid reporting the GRE. But the difference is that everyone takes the LSAT for law school, while most people took the GRE for something completely unrelated and they probably didn't care what they scored on at least one of the sections.

how does one report GRE to hls after this gre email? send admissions email listing the score or sth else?
if attaching pdf of score report then it'd also let them know the programs gre was taken for in case someone didn't want it included.

[Llamas]

Couldn't we also interpret this statement as saying they are trying to achieve fairness in the fact that SINCE LSAT takers have to report all scores, so should GRE takers.

For example, let's say Student A took the LSAT twice and due to the nature of the LSAC has to report both scores. But Student B took the GRE 5 times in one year and magically scored a perfect score, while completely bombing the other sections. Since ETS allows score select, Student B could just report that perfect score and hide the others. Therefore HLS requires ALL GRE scores from the past 5 years to promote "parity" between GRE applicants and LSAT applicants.

I agree it's fair for GRE takers to report all scores since LSAT takers have to report all scores.

What I'm trying to say is that the policy of "If you take the GRE, then you have to report it out of fairness, because we receive LSAT scores even if you only want us to see your GRE", is an attempt at fairness--Those with good GREs but bad LSATs can't avoid reporting the LSAT, so HLS reasons, those with good LSATs but worse GREs shouldn't be able to avoid reporting the GRE. But the difference is that everyone takes the LSAT for law school, while most people took the GRE for something completely unrelated and they probably didn't care what they scored on at least one of the sections.

how does one report GRE to hls after this gre email? send admissions email listing the score or sth else?
if attaching pdf of score report then it'd also let them know the programs gre was taken for in case someone didn't want it included.

Step 1: Log into your ETS account then request they send Harvard Law School your score report. It costs $27.

Step 2: (optional) email HLS and let them know you are sending your GRE scores and revising your answer to question 3 on the app from "LSAT only" to "both". Include addendum if necessary.

[jibrahim23]

Anyone that went complete on or around 10/23 get JS1?

[locomonster1]

Does this addendum sound fine? I'm shying away from saying anything related to Harvard's bungling their implementation of the GRE policy.

In [date], I took the GRE, as required for admission to [program]. Though I scored in the [high]th percentile in Verbal Reasoning, I scored in the [low]th percentile in Quantitative Reasoning. Since admissions committees in [discipline] care only about the Verbal Reasoning score, I neither studied for the exam nor took the other sections seriously. Hence, I do not believe that my Quantitative Reasoning score accurately reflects my capacity to solve problems in basic areas of mathematics.

[Platopus]

.

[locomonster1]

Does this addendum sound fine? I'm shying away from saying anything related to Harvard's bungling their implementation of the GRE policy.

In [date], I took the GRE, as required for admission to [program]. Though I scored in the [high]th percentile in Verbal Reasoning, I scored in the [low]th percentile in Quantitative Reasoning. Since admissions committees in [discipline] care only about the Verbal Reasoning score, I neither studied for the exam nor took the other sections seriously. Hence, I do not believe that my Quantitative Reasoning score accurately reflects my capacity to solve problems in basic areas of mathematics.

I get that when you took the GRE you never had any intention of using the quant score, but saying that you didn't take the section seriously just comes across poorly. Also,saying "basic areas of mathematics" sounds kind of pedantic & condescending, and especially since you didn't kill it, calling it "basic" mathematics might not be the best look.

Good points. Do you think an addendum will be useful in any way? It seems like the committee could just infer as much from the timeline of things in my resume.

[Platopus]

.

[zkyggi]

Does this addendum sound fine? I'm shying away from saying anything related to Harvard's bungling their implementation of the GRE policy.

In [date], I took the GRE, as required for admission to [program]. Though I scored in the [high]th percentile in Verbal Reasoning, I scored in the [low]th percentile in Quantitative Reasoning. Since admissions committees in [discipline] care only about the Verbal Reasoning score, I neither studied for the exam nor took the other sections seriously. Hence, I do not believe that my Quantitative Reasoning score accurately reflects my capacity to solve problems in basic areas of mathematics.

Please don't submit this...

[FriedChickenHero]

Does this addendum sound fine? I'm shying away from saying anything related to Harvard's bungling their implementation of the GRE policy.

In [date], I took the GRE, as required for admission to [program]. Though I scored in the [high]th percentile in Verbal Reasoning, I scored in the [low]th percentile in Quantitative Reasoning. Since admissions committees in [discipline] care only about the Verbal Reasoning score, I neither studied for the exam nor took the other sections seriously. Hence, I do not believe that my Quantitative Reasoning score accurately reflects my capacity to solve problems in basic areas of mathematics.

Please don't submit this...

Agreed... it doesn't seem like it will help at all

[TomLawSchool]

Anyone has a sense of this year's number of applications? I would imagine an increase, but given the GRE situation, I don't know whether it will be a big jump or a slight increase. Any ideas people?

[TheKingLives]

.

[sharris2017]

Sent.

[etramak]

Anyone has a sense of this year's number of applications? I would imagine an increase, but given the GRE situation, I don't know whether it will be a big jump or a slight increase. Any ideas people?

+1

I'm not qualified to make this guess, but I'd bet that it's just a slight increase, but in very qualified applicants. Current students at the Kennedy school, for example, have a much greater incentive to throw their hat in the ring now.

[wiseman96]

Looking at the JS1 waves from last year, it looks like they'll be coming at a pretty steady weekly pace from here on out, so do not fret anyone who missed the very first wave today (myself included).

Do you remember if were they released once/week or daily? I missed the first wave, and I'm trying to gauge how frequently I should be checking my status checker/email - lol.

[locomonster1]

According to an update on Spivey's twitter feed, schools report the GRE only if the applicant has no LSAT scores (consistent with the aim of Harvard's accepting the GRE)

[lobsicle]

Looking at the JS1 waves from last year, it looks like they'll be coming at a pretty steady weekly pace from here on out, so do not fret anyone who missed the very first wave today (myself included).

Do you remember if were they released once/week or daily? I missed the first wave, and I'm trying to gauge how frequently I should be checking my status checker/email - lol.

The first post of this thread I believe lists the days on which JS1s were released in the previous cycle.

[appind]

anyone considering gre retake? If so what's the collective wisdom is about the threshold scores at which one should retake?