Penn c/o 2015 Applicants (2011-2012 cycle) Forum

[Cornelius]

Interesting. I don't think I looked up Penn (I'm at work and all this stuff is on my home computer). I guess, using this metric, Penn doesn't look too much less competitive. Did you do the median/mean lsat and gpa of this year compared to last year. Would be interesting to see as well.

I'll do a little better (LSAT/GPA calculations do not include 11 applications with either blank LSAT or GPA):

Total Applicants Class of 2014 Cycle (valid or blank sent date): 471
Number of applications with blank sent date: 135
Percent applications: 28.66%
Median LSAT: 170
Mean LSAT: 169.21
Median GPA: 3.66
Mean GPA: 3.62
Number of applications from 9/15 to 11/7: 128
Percent of applications: 27.17%
Median LSAT: 170
Mean LSAT: 169.65
Median GPA: 3.72
Mean GPA: 3.71
Number of applications post 11/7: 208
Percent of applications: 44.16%
Median LSAT: 170
Mean LSAT: 168.69
Median GPA: 3.74
Mean GPA: 3.70

Entire Cycle:
Median LSAT: 170
Mean LSAT: 169.19
Median GPA: 3.72
Mean GPA: 3.68

[Cornelius]

Applicants so for Class of 2015 Cycle: 144
Number blank sent date: 18
Percent apps: 12.5%

Number sent date to 11/7: 126
Percent apps: 87.5%

8 people remove from LSAT/GPA calculations:
Median LSAT: 171
Average LSAT: 170.57
Median GPA: 3.77
Average GPA: 3.70

[iamrobk]

http://lsac.org/LSACResources/Data/LSAC ... ummary.asp
There's some of the LSAC data on applications, fwiw

[Cornelius]

http://lsac.org/LSACResources/Data/LSAC ... ummary.asp
There's some of the LSAC data on applications, fwiw

I thought last year people were talking about there having been a smaller applicant pool?

Encouraging to see the number of applicants this year is the lowest on the report.

[AntipodeanPhil]

http://lsac.org/LSACResources/Data/LSAC ... ummary.asp
There's some of the LSAC data on applications, fwiw

Sorry for being such a dummy here, but is the 'Fall 2011' column data for applications to start law school in Fall 2011, or applications during Fall 2011. It seems a bit too early for LSAC to have calculated the latter, but 9.9% seems like an enormous drop if that's for the previous cycle.

[iamrobk]

http://lsac.org/LSACResources/Data/LSAC ... ummary.asp
There's some of the LSAC data on applications, fwiw

Sorry for being such a dummy here, but is the 'Fall 2011' column data for applications to start law school in Fall 2011, or applications during Fall 2011. It seems a bit too early for LSAC to have calculated the latter, but 9.9% seems like an enormous drop if that's for the previous cycle.

I have no idea haha, but the Fall 2011 data was just released like 2 weeks ago.

[Cornelius]

http://lsac.org/LSACResources/Data/LSAC ... ummary.asp
There's some of the LSAC data on applications, fwiw

Sorry for being such a dummy here, but is the 'Fall 2011' column data for applications to start law school in Fall 2011, or applications during Fall 2011. It seems a bit too early for LSAC to have calculated the latter, but 9.9% seems like an enormous drop if that's for the previous cycle.

Ah good point. Based on news articles on it, it looks like that data was for the class starting law school in 2011 (i.e. last year). Meaning there was almost a 10% drop in apps last year.

http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2011/09/28/blo ... hool-rose/

[freestallion]

Applicants so for Class of 2015 Cycle: 144
Number blank sent date: 18
Percent apps: 12.5%

Number sent date to 11/7: 126
Percent apps: 87.5%

8 people remove from LSAT/GPA calculations:
Median LSAT: 171
Average LSAT: 170.57
Median GPA: 3.77
Average GPA: 3.70

Wow, so from this data it actually looks like there have been MORE applicants thus far this year compared to last cycle by this date. The median/average numbers are also slightly higher... Surprising.

[HeavenWood]

Applicants so for Class of 2015 Cycle: 144
Number blank sent date: 18
Percent apps: 12.5%

Number sent date to 11/7: 126
Percent apps: 87.5%

8 people remove from LSAT/GPA calculations:
Median LSAT: 171
Average LSAT: 170.57
Median GPA: 3.77
Average GPA: 3.70

Wow, so from this data it actually looks like there have been MORE applicants thus far this year compared to last cycle by this date. The median/average numbers are also slightly higher... Surprising.

Not to dismiss your handiwork cornelius, but keep in mind people, awareness of LSN amongst law school applicants only goes up each cycle (which definitely accounts for some of the increase).

tl;dr don't panic

[AntipodeanPhil]

Not to dismiss your handiwork cornelius, but keep in mind people, awareness of LSN amongst law school applicants only goes up each cycle (which definitely accounts for some of the increase).

tl;dr don't panic

I did some research on LSN, and I don't think that true. The following is a list of how many pages of users are listed on LSN during each cycle since it began:

03-04: 34 pgs; 04-05: 60 pgs; 05-06: 70 pgs; 06-07: 75 pgs; 07-08: 101: pgs; 08-09: 65 pgs; 09-10: 51 pgs; 10-11: 36 pgs.

In short: application numbers peaked during the 09-10 cycle, but LSN user numbers peaked during the 07-08 cycle - two years earlier. For the two cycles after 07-08, application numbers went up and LSN user numbers went down.

[HeavenWood]

Not to dismiss your handiwork cornelius, but keep in mind people, awareness of LSN amongst law school applicants only goes up each cycle (which definitely accounts for some of the increase).

tl;dr don't panic

I did some research on LSN, and I don't think that true. The following is a list of how many pages of users are listed on LSN during each cycle since it began:

03-04: 34 pgs; 04-05: 60 pgs; 05-06: 70 pgs; 06-07: 75 pgs; 07-08: 101: pgs; 08-09: 65 pgs; 09-10: 51 pgs; 10-11: 36 pgs.

In short: application numbers peaked during the 09-10 cycle, but LSN user numbers peaked during the 07-08 cycle - two years earlier. For the two cycles after 07-08, application numbers went up and LSN user numbers went down.

Either way, you're not getting a fully representative sample. A one point difference in LSAT median is definitely within the margin of error.

[r6_philly]

Don't try to extrapolate stats from LSN. You will get laughed at by math people. I can't think of a more flawed/unrepresentative/biased sample pool.

(well yes I can but I was just saying). You know the disclaimer on online polls "not a scientific poll"? They should put that on LSN somewhere.

It's useful for dates and anecdotal stuff, but don't use it to predict odds.

[Hopefully2012]

Don't try to extrapolate stats from LSN. You will get laughed at by math people. I can't think of a more flawed/unrepresentative/biased sample pool.

(well yes I can but I was just saying). You know the disclaimer on online pools "not a scientific pool"? They should put that on LSN somewhere.

It's useful for dates and anecdotal stuff, but don't use it to predict odds.

You're absolutely right. I think the waiting has just made me a little crazy and I'm just trying to find any way I can to gain a better grasp of the situation, however absurd that methodology might be. Apologies for bringing you into my madness Cornelius.

[r6_philly]

Well the usefulness of LSN can let you know that you are not due a decision for sometimes. I heard back from UT and Berkeley before Penn last year. So look for other phone calls. RD decision came out week before Christmas.

Another thing - admitted numbers are usually quite a bit higher than actually incoming class numbers. So don't worry too much about mean/median of LSN numbers. Remember most admits on LSN won't even attend. You are just getting psyched out for no reason

Best of luck guys. Don't worry, you guys will be drowning in outlines and memos (and resume and cover letters) in no time. So enjoy the time you have now. I wish I'd treasured last November a bit more...

[Cornelius]

Applicants so for Class of 2015 Cycle: 144
Number blank sent date: 18
Percent apps: 12.5%

Number sent date to 11/7: 126
Percent apps: 87.5%

8 people remove from LSAT/GPA calculations:
Median LSAT: 171
Average LSAT: 170.57
Median GPA: 3.77
Average GPA: 3.70

Wow, so from this data it actually looks like there have been MORE applicants thus far this year compared to last cycle by this date. The median/average numbers are also slightly higher... Surprising.

128 is higher than 126 last I looked. It's hard/impossible to compare the blanks because there's no way of knowing when they were added. People this year appear (so far) to be better at including the sent date, but it's also possible all the blank ones will come at the end.

Not to dismiss your handiwork cornelius, but keep in mind people, awareness of LSN amongst law school applicants only goes up each cycle (which definitely accounts for some of the increase).

tl;dr don't panic

Indeed, that's one of the many caveats at play here. For example, last year Penn had about 480 people on LSN. Total applicants to the school was over 6000, so LSN represents less than 10% of all applicants. Small fluctuations in the percentage of the class using LSN would skew results wildly.

Don't try to extrapolate stats from LSN. You will get laughed at by math people. I can't think of a more flawed/unrepresentative/biased sample pool.

(well yes I can but I was just saying). You know the disclaimer on online polls "not a scientific poll"? They should put that on LSN somewhere.

It's useful for dates and anecdotal stuff, but don't use it to predict odds.

Indeed. As a math person myself, I laughed at the entire exercise as I was doing it. Alas, there's nothing else law school related to do, and I was bored. I'd much rather be receiving decisions than trying to extrapolate law school application numbers from a website that represents a less than 10% sampling of all applicants.

[sandwiches5000]

Well the usefulness of LSN can let you know that you are not due a decision for sometimes. I heard back from UT and Berkeley before Penn last year. So look for other phone calls. RD decision came out week before Christmas.

Another thing - admitted numbers are usually quite a bit higher than actually incoming class numbers. So don't worry too much about mean/median of LSN numbers. Remember most admits on LSN won't even attend. You are just getting psyched out for no reason

Best of luck guys. Don't worry, you guys will be drowning in outlines and memos (and resume and cover letters) in no time. So enjoy the time you have now. I wish I'd treasured last November a bit more...

Yes to both of your posts... I think we tend to forget about these things because we want to grasp on to something... myself included. This seems to be an ongoing theme with everything pre-LS related here... LSAT release date predictions... curve predictions... Does the legal profession tend to attract people like us? I don't really know many people in my day-to-day outside of TLS that preoccupy themselves with this kind of stuff. Haha.

[iamrobk]

Finally went Complete for ED. Awesome.

[haowu80s]

Finally went Complete for ED. Awesome.

How many optional essays did you write?

[WhiteGuy5]

Checking in. Good luck everyone.

[horrorbusiness]

Finally went Complete for ED. Awesome.

How many optional essays did you write?

Also just went complete for ED yesterday.
I only submitted a PS and DS.

[iamrobk]

Finally went Complete for ED. Awesome.

How many optional essays did you write?

Just the 5 year plan one (basically as a Why Penn). Submitted by app back on like the 30th or 31st but one of my LOR took a while to get in. Ah well, all good now. Can't wait to hear back (and hopefully it's positive news).

[Strange]

I submitted DS Why Penn and Addenda

[WhiteGuy5]

Is it bad that I submitted jut a PS?

[curiousgeorgia]

Is it bad that I submitted jut a PS?

When I spoke to someone in admissions, they encouraged me to write every essay possible because the more you give them to work with, the better they'll be able to assess you. If you couldn't have written an essay that would have made your application better, then you're fine. If you think it would help, definitely add one to your app.

[iamrobk]

Just got an email from Penn saying my ED application was complete. That's nice of them.