Harvard Law c/o 2021 Applicants (2017-2018) Forum

[lobsicle]

Well, now I'm worried again. I think you make good points. I included an addendum making it clear this GRE was not intended for LS, especially since LS never even took GRE back then. I was thinking of doing a masters, and the grad programs only cared about one section, plus you could select which sittings you wanted to send (unlike LSAT where you have to send all). So like I took the GRE basically cold the first time as a diagnostic. I explain all of this in the addendum, and I'm confident that HLS would be understanding of this.

The thing that originally worried me was what you pointed out in (2). USNWR appears to indeed factor in GRE into their rankings, as I believe they did for Arizona last year. I am worried now that since I have to report an old GRE score, I would bring down HLS median GRE, which I think would negatively impact their ranking.

As you said, the big unknown is if an applicant with an LSAT and a GRE only has his/her LSAT score considered, or if HLS is obligated to report both to USNWR.

If it's the latter, then I feel compelled to retake the GRE so that I am no longer a LSAT/GRE splitter. Which is ironic since HLS instituted the GRE pilot program to relieve the burden of standardized test taking.

Did not mean to worry you again but these are my honest thoughts on the topic! Very frustrating I'm sure.

Edit: Spivey may have some insight here. You can try asking in his thread.

[Llamas]

Well, now I'm worried again. I think you make good points. I included an addendum making it clear this GRE was not intended for LS, especially since LS never even took GRE back then. I was thinking of doing a masters, and the grad programs only cared about one section, plus you could select which sittings you wanted to send (unlike LSAT where you have to send all). So like I took the GRE basically cold the first time as a diagnostic. I explain all of this in the addendum, and I'm confident that HLS would be understanding of this.

The thing that originally worried me was what you pointed out in (2). USNWR appears to indeed factor in GRE into their rankings, as I believe they did for Arizona last year. I am worried now that since I have to report an old GRE score, I would bring down HLS median GRE, which I think would negatively impact their ranking.

As you said, the big unknown is if an applicant with an LSAT and a GRE only has his/her LSAT score considered, or if HLS is obligated to report both to USNWR.

If it's the latter, then I feel compelled to retake the GRE so that I am no longer a LSAT/GRE splitter. Which is ironic since HLS instituted the GRE pilot program to relieve the burden of standardized test taking.

Did not mean to worry you again but these are my honest thoughts on the topic! Very frustrating I'm sure.

Edit: Spivey may have some insight here. You can try asking in his thread.

I really appreciate your input so no worries! (pun intended). I asked Spivey this same question in that thread a few days ago so I hope he answers soon so I can decide whether or not I have to mentally prepare myself for another standardized test grind. Thanks again for your insight and good luck to you!

[locomonster1]

Well, now I'm worried again. I think you make good points. I included an addendum making it clear this GRE was not intended for LS, especially since LS never even took GRE back then. I was thinking of doing a masters, and the grad programs only cared about one section, plus you could select which sittings you wanted to send (unlike LSAT where you have to send all). So like I took the GRE basically cold the first time as a diagnostic. I explain all of this in the addendum, and I'm confident that HLS would be understanding of this.

The thing that originally worried me was what you pointed out in (2). USNWR appears to indeed factor in GRE into their rankings, as I believe they did for Arizona last year. I am worried now that since I have to report an old GRE score, I would bring down HLS median GRE, which I think would negatively impact their ranking.

As you said, the big unknown is if an applicant with an LSAT and a GRE only has his/her LSAT score considered, or if HLS is obligated to report both to USNWR.

If it's the latter, then I feel compelled to retake the GRE so that I am no longer a LSAT/GRE splitter. Which is ironic since HLS instituted the GRE pilot program to relieve the burden of standardized test taking.

Did not mean to worry you again but these are my honest thoughts on the topic! Very frustrating I'm sure.

Edit: Spivey may have some insight here. You can try asking in his thread.

I really appreciate your input so no worries! (pun intended). I asked Spivey this same question in that thread a few days ago so I hope he answers soon so I can decide whether or not I have to mentally prepare myself for another standardized test grind. Thanks again for your insight and good luck to you!

I share your worry. I think Harvard really slipped up their implementation of this policy if the fact that they collect all scores indeed creates a new type of splitter (relative to the USNEWS rankings). When did you submit the addendum?

[appind]

Submitted: 10/1
Complete: 10/10
JS1: 11/1
GPA: 3.85
GRE: 170V, 165Q
No LSAT score

Hey fellow GRE applicant! Congrats!

Would ya'll mind sharing your GRE writing score? Or do we think that isn't too important?

Edit: Also congrats!!

i had ignored the HLS GRE email on 31st until talk here now made me look at it as one of those impacted by that. The app instructions were clearly vague about it.

does it mean any GRE from last 5 years must be submitted even if one chose report "LSAT only" prompt in the already submitted HLS's online app?

[lobsicle]

Submitted: 10/1
Complete: 10/10
JS1: 11/1
GPA: 3.85
GRE: 170V, 165Q
No LSAT score

Hey fellow GRE applicant! Congrats!

Would ya'll mind sharing your GRE writing score? Or do we think that isn't too important?

Edit: Also congrats!!

i had ignored the HLS GRE email on 31st until talk here now made me look at it as one of those impacted by that. The app instructions were clearly vague about it.

does it mean any GRE from last 5 years must be submitted even if one chose report "LSAT only" prompt in the HLS's online app?

That’s the consensus, yes.

[TheKingLives]

.

[locomonster1]

Do we have a consensus on why some received the GRE email and some didn't? Kind of perturbed I didn't get it :/

I suspect that Harvard sent emails to people that (i) didn't submit a GRE score and (ii) they have reason to suspect have a GRE score (e.g., someone in a Master's program).

The email, and the now updated F.A.Q. on the Harvard website, make it crystal clear that all scores must be submitted (in contrast to the crystal clear vagueness of the actual application).

I wanted to add that I noticed that USNEWS only considers GRE quantitative in their ranking of engineering programs, but considers both verbal and quantitative in their ranking of business schools. So maybe they will only consider verbal for law schools?

[BEng,MBA,FRM,JD(?)]

Do we have a consensus on why some received the GRE email and some didn't? Kind of perturbed I didn't get it :/

I suspect that Harvard sent emails to people that (i) didn't submit a GRE score and (ii) they have reason to suspect have a GRE score (e.g., someone in a Master's program).

The email, and the now updated F.A.Q. on the Harvard website, make it crystal clear that all scores must be submitted (in contrast to the crystal clear vagueness of the actual application).

I wanted to add that I noticed that USNEWS only considers GRE quantitative in their ranking of engineering programs, but considers both verbal and quantitative in their ranking of business schools. So maybe they will only consider verbal for law schools?

I had submitted the GRE score and got that email.

[appind]

the hls email about GRE seems to make the process unpredictable. it increases categories of applicants manifold considering there are 3 gre scores. v,q,writing.

what GRE score can be considered "helping" the app if one's lsat is say around 25% or say 50%? a near perfect in both v/q is clearly desirable but what if q is strong but not v, or vice-versa? plus the scale of GRE is so different than LSAT at the top range that i'm not sure how the school can use it.
a 169/170 in quant is just 96% (equivalent in verbal will be ~166/170) so based on %ile it appears they should be harming the app, but it's reasonable to think that they'd consider 169q a strong q score.

[appind]

Do we have a consensus on why some received the GRE email and some didn't? Kind of perturbed I didn't get it :/

I suspect that Harvard sent emails to people that (i) didn't submit a GRE score and (ii) they have reason to suspect have a GRE score (e.g., someone in a Master's program).

The email, and the now updated F.A.Q. on the Harvard website, make it crystal clear that all scores must be submitted (in contrast to the crystal clear vagueness of the actual application).

I wanted to add that I noticed that USNEWS only considers GRE quantitative in their ranking of engineering programs, but considers both verbal and quantitative in their ranking of business schools. So maybe they will only consider verbal for law schools?

I had submitted the GRE score and got that email.

i think all who were complete before a certain date received the email.

[appind]

are all who took GRE but used only LSAT for app reporting it now after the hls email?

[sillymints7962]

are all who took GRE but used only LSAT for app reporting it now after the hls email?

The email states that you must report all GRE and LSAT scores within the past five years.

[lobsicle]

Do we have a consensus on why some received the GRE email and some didn't? Kind of perturbed I didn't get it :/

I suspect that Harvard sent emails to people that (i) didn't submit a GRE score and (ii) they have reason to suspect have a GRE score (e.g., someone in a Master's program).

The email, and the now updated F.A.Q. on the Harvard website, make it crystal clear that all scores must be submitted (in contrast to the crystal clear vagueness of the actual application).

I wanted to add that I noticed that USNEWS only considers GRE quantitative in their ranking of engineering programs, but considers both verbal and quantitative in their ranking of business schools. So maybe they will only consider verbal for law schools?

I had submitted the GRE score and got that email.

i think all who were complete before a certain date received the email.

I can confirm that this is not the deciding criterion for receiving/not receiving the e-mail.

[Llamas]

Well, now I'm worried again. I think you make good points. I included an addendum making it clear this GRE was not intended for LS, especially since LS never even took GRE back then. I was thinking of doing a masters, and the grad programs only cared about one section, plus you could select which sittings you wanted to send (unlike LSAT where you have to send all). So like I took the GRE basically cold the first time as a diagnostic. I explain all of this in the addendum, and I'm confident that HLS would be understanding of this.

The thing that originally worried me was what you pointed out in (2). USNWR appears to indeed factor in GRE into their rankings, as I believe they did for Arizona last year. I am worried now that since I have to report an old GRE score, I would bring down HLS median GRE, which I think would negatively impact their ranking.

As you said, the big unknown is if an applicant with an LSAT and a GRE only has his/her LSAT score considered, or if HLS is obligated to report both to USNWR.

If it's the latter, then I feel compelled to retake the GRE so that I am no longer a LSAT/GRE splitter. Which is ironic since HLS instituted the GRE pilot program to relieve the burden of standardized test taking.

Did not mean to worry you again but these are my honest thoughts on the topic! Very frustrating I'm sure.

Edit: Spivey may have some insight here. You can try asking in his thread.

I really appreciate your input so no worries! (pun intended). I asked Spivey this same question in that thread a few days ago so I hope he answers soon so I can decide whether or not I have to mentally prepare myself for another standardized test grind. Thanks again for your insight and good luck to you!

I share your worry. I think Harvard really slipped up their implementation of this policy if the fact that they collect all scores indeed creates a new type of splitter (relative to the USNEWS rankings). When did you submit the addendum?

I submitted the addendum the day they sent out that GRE email, so 10/31.

Originally when I read through the app instructions in both March 2017 when they first announced their pilot program, and again in September right around when I submitted, they did not have that language in their FAQ regarding the reporting of GRE scores. Since my GRE was substantially worse than my LSAT, I answered I would report "LSAT only" on the app since their app was extremely vague with regards to this question. After I got that email I freaked out haha because if I knew that back in March I would've had more time to prep for both the lsat and GRE over summer, but now I have like a month to consider prepping for the GRE.

[Llamas]

the hls email about GRE seems to make the process unpredictable. it increases categories of applicants manifold considering there are 3 gre scores. v,q,writing.

what GRE score can be considered "helping" the app if one's lsat is say around 25% or say 50%? a near perfect in both v/q is clearly desirable but what if q is strong but not v, or vice-versa? plus the scale of GRE is so different than LSAT at the top range that i'm not sure how the school can use it.
a 169/170 in quant is just 96% (equivalent in verbal will be ~166/170) so based on %ile it appears they should be harming the app, but it's reasonable to think that they'd consider 169q a strong q score.

Well, there was a previous poster in this thread who mentioned they got a JS1 with like a 170/165 verbal quant split.

I wouldn't read into the quant percentile too much. I think you also have to consider the combined percentile; so what is a 335/340 (170+165) in terms of percentile? I imagine it's really high. But since GRE doesn't report these combined percentiles we don't know.

Spivey answered my question regarding the GRE. He said he doesn't even know if schools are completely certain on how the USNWR incorporates the GRE. He said he'll have someone call and ask. There are 3 possibilities right now for people with both an LSAT and GRE:

(1) USNWR takes only the higher percentile score. This is obviously the most lenient scenario where it helps everyone with both an LSAT sand GRE score. But this would be contingent on the GRE (secretly) releasing the combined percentile so that an adequate comparison between LSAT and GRE can be made.

(2) USNWR considers only LSAT if you have both GRE or LSAT. This favors people like myself who have a superior LSAT. But if this is the case, why would HLS require people to report random GRE scores? Maybe for data collection...

(3) USNWR considers both. But this opens a can of worms in terms of their rankings calculus. So does a candidate with both scores have their percentiles averaged? Or does the USNWR have a separate LSAT and separate GRE statistic, and such a candidate would influence both stats? If it's the latter, this creates a scenario where you can now be a double splitter, where you bring down LSAT and/or GRE medians. But then this would incentivize some people to take both LSAT and GRE so that they have both a 175+ and a 335+ combined GRE. But this directly contradicts the spirit of HLS's pilot program in terms of alleviating burden of test.

[InterLaw]

But then this would incentivize some people to take both LSAT and GRE so that they have both a 175+ and a 335+ combined GRE.

It's the first thing I thought. This new scenario could be life-changing for hard splitters! There would be the occasion to make up for a bad GPA with two high test scores!

However, the GRE is much easier than the LSAT, and there is a much less differentiation within high scores: the 99th percentiles on the GRE is right at 170(/170), while on the LSAT it's at 172(/180). Which means that basically, if H wants to take the GRE at their LSAT median, everything which is not a perfect score is hurting them.

Speaking for myself, if UNSWR releases some methodology about that before the end of the cycle, I could really consider a GRE test for negotiation/waitlists! (and yes, that's exactly the opposite of what Harvard was seeking to accomplish)

[Llamas]

But then this would incentivize some people to take both LSAT and GRE so that they have both a 175+ and a 335+ combined GRE.

It's the first thing I thought. This new scenario could be life-changing for hard splitters! There would be the occasion to make up for a bad GPA with two high test scores!

However, the GRE is much easier than the LSAT, and there is a much less differentiation within high scores: the 99th percentiles on the GRE is right at 170(/170), while on the LSAT it's at 172(/180). Which means that basically, if H wants to take the GRE at their LSAT median, everything which is not a perfect score is hurting them.

Speaking for myself, if UNSWR releases some methodology about that before the end of the cycle, I could really consider a GRE test for negotiation/waitlists! (and yes, that's exactly the opposite of what Harvard was seeking to accomplish)

I agree some parts of the GRE are easy. The reading passages are nothing compared to LSAT RC. But at the same time, GRE is a little more unpredictable in that they directly test vocabulary. Either way, I do believe someone with a good lsat score can score reasonably well on the GRE.

I disagree with your point that "everything that is not a perfect score is hurting them". You have to consider the combined score percentiles as well. While the GRE doesnt split hairs at the 99.9 percentile, and even though it caps out at the 97th for quant, you have to remember that the number of people who get both a 170 quant AND a 165+ on verbal is extremely small. Most of the people who take the GRE only focus on one sections since most PhD programs only care about only one section. You also have a bunch of international students bringing down the verbal since English is not their native language. I would say, percentile wise, a perfect 170/170 is just as rare as a 180 on the lsat. I once found this great resource that estimated what the combined GRE percentiles were but I can't find it now.

[InterLaw]

But then this would incentivize some people to take both LSAT and GRE so that they have both a 175+ and a 335+ combined GRE.

It's the first thing I thought. This new scenario could be life-changing for hard splitters! There would be the occasion to make up for a bad GPA with two high test scores!

However, the GRE is much easier than the LSAT, and there is a much less differentiation within high scores: the 99th percentiles on the GRE is right at 170(/170), while on the LSAT it's at 172(/180). Which means that basically, if H wants to take the GRE at their LSAT median, everything which is not a perfect score is hurting them.

Speaking for myself, if UNSWR releases some methodology about that before the end of the cycle, I could really consider a GRE test for negotiation/waitlists! (and yes, that's exactly the opposite of what Harvard was seeking to accomplish)

I agree some parts of the GRE are easy. The reading passages are nothing compared to LSAT RC. But at the same time, GRE is a little more unpredictable in that they directly test vocabulary. Either way, I do believe someone with a good lsat score can score reasonably well on the GRE.

I disagree with your point that "everything that is not a perfect score is hurting them". You have to consider the combined score percentiles as well. While the GRE doesnt split hairs at the 99.9 percentile, and even though it caps out at the 97th for quant, you have to remember that the number of people who get both a 170 quant AND a 165+ on verbal is extremely small. Most of the people who take the GRE only focus on one sections since most PhD programs only care about only one section. You also have a bunch of international students bringing down the verbal since English is not their native language. I would say, percentile wise, a perfect 170/170 is just as rare as a 180 on the lsat. I once found this great resource that estimated what the combined GRE percentiles were but I can't find it now.

Sorry, I forgot to say that my reasoning was based on the assumption that LS will consider just verbal scores. If they consider both (and I'm rooting for that - being international and good with numbers), that's all a different scenario.

Please, share that source should you find it!

[jakebrigance11]

Submitting all GRE scores just levels the playing field. I'm leading with my GRE scores, but because I submitted through LSAC, Harvard will see my LSAT scores, which are below their averages... I guess they just figured out way too late that people with the opposite split (strong LSAT/weak GRE) had a distinct advantage by only sending LSAT scores.

Frankly, since Harvard bungled these instructions, I think they would be wise to only consider the strongest score, regardless of test. But, alas, they haven't asked my opinion.

[Llamas]

Submitting all GRE scores just levels the playing field. I'm leading with my GRE scores, but because I submitted through LSAC, Harvard will see my LSAT scores, which are below their averages... I guess they just figured out way too late that people with the opposite split (strong LSAT/weak GRE) had a distinct advantage by only sending LSAT scores.

Frankly, since Harvard bungled these instructions, I think they would be wise to only consider the strongest score, regardless of test. But, alas, they haven't asked my opinion.

I think your point re: leveling the playing field makes sense, and it's posssible that's what HLS is trying to do. But it's unfortunate because there is now a lot of collateral damage for people (like myself) who never intended to ever disclose their GRE scores (since ETS has score select) but are now being lumped together with people who took the GRE for the express purpose of getting into HLS.

I hope they only consider the strongest score as well, but as I mentioned earlier, how does someone determine which score is "stronger"?

[black_mirror]

Submitting all GRE scores just levels the playing field. I'm leading with my GRE scores, but because I submitted through LSAC, Harvard will see my LSAT scores, which are below their averages... I guess they just figured out way too late that people with the opposite split (strong LSAT/weak GRE) had a distinct advantage by only sending LSAT scores.

Frankly, since Harvard bungled these instructions, I think they would be wise to only consider the strongest score, regardless of test. But, alas, they haven't asked my opinion.

I think your point re: leveling the playing field makes sense, and it's posssible that's what HLS is trying to do. But it's unfortunate because there is now a lot of collateral damage for people (like myself) who never intended to ever disclose their GRE scores (since ETS has score select) but are now being lumped together with people who took the GRE for the express purpose of getting into HLS.

I hope they only consider the strongest score as well, but as I mentioned earlier, how does someone determine which score is "stronger"?

Since they only report the highest LSAT, I would assume they would also pick the highest LSAT/GRE score?

[lobsicle]

Submitting all GRE scores just levels the playing field. I'm leading with my GRE scores, but because I submitted through LSAC, Harvard will see my LSAT scores, which are below their averages... I guess they just figured out way too late that people with the opposite split (strong LSAT/weak GRE) had a distinct advantage by only sending LSAT scores.

Frankly, since Harvard bungled these instructions, I think they would be wise to only consider the strongest score, regardless of test. But, alas, they haven't asked my opinion.

I think your point re: leveling the playing field makes sense, and it's posssible that's what HLS is trying to do. But it's unfortunate because there is now a lot of collateral damage for people (like myself) who never intended to ever disclose their GRE scores (since ETS has score select) but are now being lumped together with people who took the GRE for the express purpose of getting into HLS.

I hope they only consider the strongest score as well, but as I mentioned earlier, how does someone determine which score is "stronger"?

It's unfortunate not only for people who took them thinking they'd be able to hide certain scores using Score Select, but also those who took them for other programs and never intended for law schools to see them. I do get that it levels the playing field for those who wish they could only submit GRE, but, at the same time, if you take the LSAT then you obviously plan on using it for law school. On the other hand, you probably didn't plan on using your GRE for law school. So is the situation really symmetric for people who wish they could only submit GRE versus those who wish they could submit only LSAT? I'd argue not really.

Edit: Especially seems unfair because GRE-takers tend to focus on the single section that is important for their planned graduate program. E.g., if engineering, you study math.

[lobsicle]

Submitting all GRE scores just levels the playing field. I'm leading with my GRE scores, but because I submitted through LSAC, Harvard will see my LSAT scores, which are below their averages... I guess they just figured out way too late that people with the opposite split (strong LSAT/weak GRE) had a distinct advantage by only sending LSAT scores.

Frankly, since Harvard bungled these instructions, I think they would be wise to only consider the strongest score, regardless of test. But, alas, they haven't asked my opinion.

I think your point re: leveling the playing field makes sense, and it's posssible that's what HLS is trying to do. But it's unfortunate because there is now a lot of collateral damage for people (like myself) who never intended to ever disclose their GRE scores (since ETS has score select) but are now being lumped together with people who took the GRE for the express purpose of getting into HLS.

I hope they only consider the strongest score as well, but as I mentioned earlier, how does someone determine which score is "stronger"?

Since they only report the highest LSAT, I would assume they would also pick the highest LSAT/GRE score?

Yes but the question is which one is the stronger score? Is Verbal weighted more heavily? It becomes much more complicated if writing is considered.

[appind]

Well, there was a previous poster in this thread who mentioned they got a JS1 with like a 170/165 verbal quant split.

I wouldn't read into the quant percentile too much. I think you also have to consider the combined percentile; so what is a 335/340 (170+165) in terms of percentile? I imagine it's really high. But since GRE doesn't report these combined percentiles we don't know.

Spivey answered my question regarding the GRE. He said he doesn't even know if schools are completely certain on how the USNWR incorporates the GRE. He said he'll have someone call and ask. There are 3 possibilities right now for people with both an LSAT and GRE:

(1) USNWR takes only the higher percentile score. This is obviously the most lenient scenario where it helps everyone with both an LSAT sand GRE score. But this would be contingent on the GRE (secretly) releasing the combined percentile so that an adequate comparison between LSAT and GRE can be made.

(2) USNWR considers only LSAT if you have both GRE or LSAT. This favors people like myself who have a superior LSAT. But if this is the case, why would HLS require people to report random GRE scores? Maybe for data collection...

(3) USNWR considers both. But this opens a can of worms in terms of their rankings calculus. So does a candidate with both scores have their percentiles averaged? Or does the USNWR have a separate LSAT and separate GRE statistic, and such a candidate would influence both stats? If it's the latter, this creates a scenario where you can now be a double splitter, where you bring down LSAT and/or GRE medians. But then this would incentivize some people to take both LSAT and GRE so that they have both a 175+ and a 335+ combined GRE. But this directly contradicts the spirit of HLS's pilot program in terms of alleviating burden of test.

i'm not sure if Q score wouldn't matter, it seems hard to justify picking only a section of the test score as an admissions policy. i think there are deeper reasons for GRE score program this year that specifically serve the school's interests than what's public rn.

i took gre w/o any prep long ago, it's a cakewalk compared to lsat. wondering if retaking gre makes sense now.

[appind]

Edit: Especially seems unfair because GRE-takers tend to focus on the single section that is important for their planned graduate program. E.g., if engineering, you study math.

i guess the irony is that if someone is applying to grad engineering after ug engineering degree, then they wouldn't probably need to study for a good quant score. gre as a test is almost never used as a basis for admissions in grad programs as strongly as lsat was in law schools.