Columbia 2010 Forum

[maudlinstreet]

The glass sphere that is my ego gets a small pebble thrown though it each day without a CLS letter.

/whining

yeah, I'm definitely getting anxious about my app, despite telling other people not to worry about it. you guys (you, bai, and other people with higher indexes than me) being in limbo as well is somewhat reassuring, but I'm losing a little bit of confidence here.

this whole waiting debacle is also making me rage hard about the fact that columbia still uses snail mail to communicate acceptances. using a phone or even just e-mailing accepted students seems like it'd be a lot faster and easier on our nerves, you know? ah well, hopefully they'll come through eventually!

If I end up not getting into SLS or CLS, I'll be pretty upset that I didn't ED like I was considering. But I sent in a LOCI and hopefully they come around (albeit slowly).

likewise about the ED! I really considered it for a while, but virtually everyone with my stats on LSN last year (~3.7 / 175) got in, so I figured I'd be safe applying RD, have a chance at harvard (that didn't pan out), and even perhaps get some money at CLS. now I'm kicking myself for not applying ED since CLS is definitely my #1 choice. I guess I could send in a LOCI, but it'd pretty much just consist of a groveling letter and not much else, since I don't have any additional materials to send them.

[Kronk]

likewise about the ED! I really considered it for a while, but virtually everyone with my stats on LSN last year (~3.7 / 175) got in, so I figured I'd be safe applying RD, have a chance at harvard (that didn't pan out), and even perhaps get some money at CLS. now I'm kicking myself for not applying ED since CLS is definitely my #1 choice. I guess I could send in a LOCI, but it'd pretty much just consist of a groveling letter and not much else, since I don't have any additional materials to send them.

I just sent them an extra LOCI and a little information on a new job I'm working and one or two things I've done. It wasn't too much. I just figured I focused a lot of my PS on public interest stuff so they might think I'd lean towards NYU? That's probably just an excuse, but either way a LOCI can't hurt. If you haven't heard back by March or the end of February, I would send one in (but like I said above, I'm obnoxious).

Kicking myself because I knew it was going to be tough to get into SLS straight from undergrad (thought 30% do it, so ehh) and CLS > HLS for me for a variety of reasons. *shrug* I guess we'll just hope it pans out.

Edit: Were you held at HLS or dinged? Don't have to answer if you don't want to, just curious.

[CardinalRules]

likewise about the ED! I really considered it for a while, but virtually everyone with my stats on LSN last year (~3.7 / 175) got in, so I figured I'd be safe applying RD, have a chance at harvard (that didn't pan out), and even perhaps get some money at CLS. now I'm kicking myself for not applying ED since CLS is definitely my #1 choice. I guess I could send in a LOCI, but it'd pretty much just consist of a groveling letter and not much else, since I don't have any additional materials to send them.

I just sent them an extra LOCI and a little information on a new job I'm working and one or two things I've done. It wasn't too much. I just figured I focused a lot of my PS on public interest stuff so they might think I'd lean towards NYU? That's probably just an excuse, but either way a LOCI can't hurt. If you haven't heard back by March or the end of February, I would send one in (but like I said above, I'm obnoxious).

Kicking myself because I knew it was going to be tough to get into SLS straight from undergrad (thought 30% do it, so ehh) and CLS > HLS for me for a variety of reasons. *shrug* I guess we'll just hope it pans out.

Just 30% for SLS? Is that number lower than most schools?

I'm really curious why CLS > HLS for you, unless it's the thought of a Hamilton or Butler. Most people seem to pick HLS in that comparison except when they get a scholarship. If you'd rather PM me, that's fine.

[englawyer]

Stanford Stats:

* directly from college: 30%
* 1-2 years after college: 43%
* 3 or more years after college: 27%

so roughly around 50 seats for straight-through undergrad applicants

[Kronk]

Just 30% for SLS? Is that number lower than most schools?

I'm really curious why CLS > HLS for you, unless it's the thought of a Hamilton or Butler. Most people seem to pick HLS in that comparison except when they get a scholarship. If you'd rather PM me, that's fine.

30%--slightly lower than most other T14s. I think most of them are ~40%. I would guess (but don't know) that Yale is as low as SLS or lower. Northwestern is probably the lowest because of their work experience thing.

I figure CLS and HLS are roughly equivalent for everything except for clerkships and academia. I don't have any interest in doing a clerkship, and academia is something I would only consider after a career. So, given that--CLS has a far better LRAP, which is huge for me, and is in the same city as most of the jobs I want to apply for. Also, I much prefer NYC to Cambridge and wouldn't mind a slightly smaller class size.

[CardinalRules]

I figure CLS and HLS are roughly equivalent for everything except for clerkships and academia. I don't have any interest in doing a clerkship, and academia is something I would only consider after a career. So, given that--CLS has a far better LRAP, which is huge for me, and is in the same city as most of the jobs I want to apply for. Also, I much prefer NYC to Cambridge and wouldn't mind a slightly smaller class size.

It makes sense; basically, you'd be picking CLS for the same reasons that I might pick SLS (outside the LRAP).

[Kretzy]

V6, would you take Columbia over Boalt?

[Kronk]

V6, would you take Columbia over Boalt?

It would be a really tough decision for me, as I like SF so much more than NYC. But all things equal money-wise, probably. Same with NYU, although the decision between Boalt and NYU would be that much tougher.

[CardinalRules]

V6, would you take Columbia over Boalt?

It would be a really tough decision for me, as I like SF so much more than NYC. But all things equal money-wise, probably. Same with NYU, although the decision between Boalt and NYU would be that much tougher.

Your avatar says otherwise.

[TheWire]

V6, would you take Columbia over Boalt?

It would be a really tough decision for me, as I like SF so much more than NYC. But all things equal money-wise, probably. Same with NYU, although the decision between Boalt and NYU would be that much tougher.

V6, are you saying for you:

Columbia>NYU=Boalt or Columbia>Boalt>NYU

How big is the LRAP for you?

[Kronk]

V6, would you take Columbia over Boalt?

It would be a really tough decision for me, as I like SF so much more than NYC. But all things equal money-wise, probably. Same with NYU, although the decision between Boalt and NYU would be that much tougher.

V6, are you saying for you:

Columbia>NYU=Boalt or Columbia>Boalt>NYU

How big is the LRAP for you?

Columbia > NYU = Boalt = HLS

LRAP is a large--but not singular--factor.

[CoaltoNewCastle]

Is Columbia's LRAP actually better than Harvard's? What makes it so? Also I always hear people say that Columbia is probably as good as Harvard for Biglaw, at least in NYC, but I don't actually believe it. I think even in a good economy while about 80% of Columbia grads got Biglaw jobs if they wanted them, for Harvard the number was more like 95%. Harvard is noticeably more selective than Columbia and much more prestigious.

[scribelaw]

Anyone on here who went complete 1/19 gotten an envelope?

[Kronk]

Is Columbia's LRAP actually better than Harvard's? What makes it so? Also I always hear people say that Columbia is probably as good as Harvard for Biglaw, at least in NYC, but I don't actually believe it. I think even in a good economy while about 80% of Columbia grads got Biglaw jobs if they wanted them, for Harvard the number was more like 95%. Harvard is noticeably more selective than Columbia and much more prestigious.

Yes, much much better (as is Berkeley's and NYU's). Your take home income is about $7,000-$8,000 per year better at Columbia / NYU / Boalt than at Harvard. The rest of your post is just speculation, as I don't think there are any facts that would HLS grads are noticeably more desirable for BigLaw.

http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008job_biglaw.shtml

Also just speculation, but I would think it's more likely that many of the HLS grads that graduate at the top of their class go on to clerkships and academia, which CLS students generally don't. At that point, you have CLS grads competing with the bottom 80% of the HLS class and I would imagine that's roughly equivalent, if not edged in CLS' favor due to NYC proximity.

[CoaltoNewCastle]

In this image, Harvard has slightly fewer placements in the NLJ 250 (which is a decent metric for what firms are big law), while it has many, many more clerkships. I think a flaw with your reasoning is that most people who do clerkships are just going to go onto regular jobs the year after anyway, which will mostly be Biglaw. The gray area, which is "other firms," is minute for Harvard. You could argue that most of the "other firms" for Columbia are boutiques that pay market rate, but I really don't think they are. Obviously this is speculation too, but I still think it makes more sense.

Also I don't understand what you mean about take-home income being 7-8k higher at Columbia than at Harvard. Does LRAP completely depend on the income/type of job the graduate is doing?

[Kronk]

In this image, Harvard has slightly fewer placements in the NLJ 250 (which is a decent metric for what firms are big law), while it has many, many more clerkships. I think a flaw with your reasoning is that most people who do clerkships are just going to go onto regular jobs the year after anyway, which will mostly be Biglaw. The gray area, which is "other firms," is minute for Harvard. You could argue that most of the "other firms" for Columbia are boutiques that pay market rate, but I really don't think they are. Obviously this is speculation too, but I still think it makes more sense.

Also I don't understand what you mean about take-home income being 7-8k higher at Columbia than at Harvard. Does LRAP completely depend on the income/type of job the graduate is doing?[/quote]

I guess the BigLaw argument is moot, although I will maintain that Columbia does just as well as HLS, especially in the V25. I think when we're talking T6 BigLaw, V25 or at least V50 is a better indicator than NLJ250. There certainly isn't any data that says Harvard places better in BigLaw aside from the "if they didn't do clerkships" or "if they didn't do academia" arguments. Those are fine, but the reality is that people DO go into clerkships and academia rather than BigLaw, and thus Harvard's advantage in BigLaw never materializes.

Anyhow, as for Columbia and Harvard's LRAP; the LRAP is actually pretty complex, and different schools have different requirements on how much of your own salary you are required to pay towards your loan in a year. Also, schools have different requirements on qualifying jobs. All said an done, you walk with more at CLS than HLS by a few thousand. (Just checked the linked thread, and the difference isn't 7-8k, more like 3-4k, but still significant. NYU's is a little better than CLS', and Berkeley's is a little better than both. SLS and YLS have by far the best LRAPs and both give about 6-10K more per year than HLS).

There is a really good thread on LRAPs here http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 15&t=62094

[CanadianEH]

Anyone on here who went complete 1/19 gotten an envelope?

I'm in the same boat and wondering the same thing.

[maudlinstreet]

likewise about the ED! I really considered it for a while, but virtually everyone with my stats on LSN last year (~3.7 / 175) got in, so I figured I'd be safe applying RD, have a chance at harvard (that didn't pan out), and even perhaps get some money at CLS. now I'm kicking myself for not applying ED since CLS is definitely my #1 choice. I guess I could send in a LOCI, but it'd pretty much just consist of a groveling letter and not much else, since I don't have any additional materials to send them.

I just sent them an extra LOCI and a little information on a new job I'm working and one or two things I've done. It wasn't too much. I just figured I focused a lot of my PS on public interest stuff so they might think I'd lean towards NYU? That's probably just an excuse, but either way a LOCI can't hurt. If you haven't heard back by March or the end of February, I would send one in (but like I said above, I'm obnoxious).

Kicking myself because I knew it was going to be tough to get into SLS straight from undergrad (thought 30% do it, so ehh) and CLS > HLS for me for a variety of reasons. *shrug* I guess we'll just hope it pans out.

Edit: Were you held at HLS or dinged? Don't have to answer if you don't want to, just curious.

Yeah, the LOCI is sounding increasingly appealing as each day passes. I know (hope?) there are no major red flags in my application, since I did get into Chicago and NYU already, but maybe something about my application rubbed Columbia the wrong way? Really not sure at this point. Your advice on the timing is probably sound - I might throw one their way sooner than that though if I get really antsy.

I was actually dinged at HLS - not too surprised or embarassed about it though. Barely anyone seems to get into HLS with my stats, and my softs are good but not super awesome. So it wasn't much of a shock, especially when I didn't hear back for two+ months.

Ah well, here's hoping we both get in!

[jbrowning82]

How does CLS give decisions? I submitted a complete application on 12/3 and I haven't heard anything.

It's a big reach school for me but I have excellent softs and a good PS so my fingers are crossed. I really want to be in NYC over South Bend.

[CardinalRules]

How does CLS give decisions? I submitted a complete application on 12/3 and I haven't heard anything.

It's a big reach school for me but I have excellent softs and a good PS so my fingers are crossed. I really want to be in NYC over South Bend.

The first group of RD acceptances went out last week. All types of decision go by mail. If you receive a large urine-colored envelope, the news is good.

[jbrowning82]

Does the status checker actually change when they've made a decision? Or could my status still say "complete" and they've made a decision?

[parker09]

Does the status checker actually change when they've made a decision? Or could my status still say "complete" and they've made a decision?

It'll stay at "complete."

[booboo]

The glass sphere that is my ego gets a small pebble thrown though it each day without a CLS letter.

/whining

yeah, I'm definitely getting anxious about my app, despite telling other people not to worry about it. you guys (you, bai, and other people with higher indexes than me) being in limbo as well is somewhat reassuring, but I'm losing a little bit of confidence here.

this whole waiting debacle is also making me rage hard about the fact that columbia still uses snail mail to communicate acceptances. using a phone or even just e-mailing accepted students seems like it'd be a lot faster and easier on our nerves, you know? ah well, hopefully they'll come through eventually!

If I end up not getting into SLS or CLS, I'll be pretty upset that I didn't ED like I was considering. But I sent in a LOCI and hopefully they come around (albeit slowly).

likewise about the ED! I really considered it for a while, but virtually everyone with my stats on LSN last year (~3.7 / 175) got in, so I figured I'd be safe applying RD, have a chance at harvard (that didn't pan out), and even perhaps get some money at CLS. now I'm kicking myself for not applying ED since CLS is definitely my #1 choice. I guess I could send in a LOCI, but it'd pretty much just consist of a groveling letter and not much else, since I don't have any additional materials to send them.

Looking at LSN for last year... LSAT's of 175 at Columbia were only waitlisted if they were below the 25% GPA, rejected if they were close enough to 3.00 GPA. I'd say you are a lock. .

[of Benito Cereno]

I WANT A BINDERRRRRRRRRRRR

[psychomohel]

In this image, Harvard has slightly fewer placements in the NLJ 250 (which is a decent metric for what firms are big law), while it has many, many more clerkships. I think a flaw with your reasoning is that most people who do clerkships are just going to go onto regular jobs the year after anyway, which will mostly be Biglaw. The gray area, which is "other firms," is minute for Harvard. You could argue that most of the "other firms" for Columbia are boutiques that pay market rate, but I really don't think they are. Obviously this is speculation too, but I still think it makes more sense.

Also I don't understand what you mean about take-home income being 7-8k higher at Columbia than at Harvard. Does LRAP completely depend on the income/type of job the graduate is doing?

Brian Leiter's law school report contains a ranking based on graduates at elite firms. If you normalize the number of graduates by class size, Columbia does beat out Harvard. Chicago also beats out Harvard when normalized by class size. Harvard and Columbia do roughly have the same number of grads at the elite firms though. Looking through the table, it seems that only Wachtell has more Harvard grads than Columbia grads.

The ranking is here: http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008job_biglaw.shtml