Stanford 2010!!! Forum

[crackberry]

Yeah, I still don't trust him.

Anyway, in other news, this is hilarious: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Au_8GMUxVs

[SR86]

I hope it won't upset anyone if I ask a comparative question: how would you compare SLS and HLS for cyberlaw, intellectual property, and (more generally) law & technology in general? I'm really torn. I know that Leiter puts HLS before SLS in terms of faculty quality for cyberlaw/intellectual property, but I wonder if USNews might be more on target when it puts SLS above HLS for the overall strength of the intellectual property program.

It seems to me that if anyone could choose SLS over HLS for anything other than location and size (which are purely matters of personal preference), one really good reason would be the breadth and strength of its interdisciplinary program in technology (specifically, computer science) & law.

I've been wrestling with the question of HLS vs. SLS for a while now, so here's some of my thoughts. Cyberlaw and IP are my biggest interests and after talking to professors and students at various places, I'm strongly leaning towards HLS. I think size gives HLS an advantage over SLS, as HLS has a greater breadth in its cyberlaw/IP faculty. There are 13 faculty members at the Berkman Center. There is also a patent expert at the Petrie-Flom Center (Benjamin Roin), and a full-time clinical faculty for the cyberlaw clinic (Phil Malone).

Contrast this with SLS, where there are only 3 faculty members in cyberlaw/IP. Now to be fair, two of them are probably the foremost experts in their fields (Mark Lemley in patents and Paul Goldstein in trademarks/copyright). But in cyberlaw, SLS unfortunately can't really compete, with only one single faculty member at the Center for Internet and Society. The cyberlaw clinic at SLS for example hasn't been run in the last 2 years. It's quite unfortunate that SLS' cyberlaw offerings are so few considering its location and the strength of the CS and EE departments.

Also, I think people overstate the importance of Stanford's location. Sure, it probably means more interesting guest speakers will be coming around more often. But when it comes to finding a job, it doesn't matter that much as most people will get a job through OCI, and IP firms will undoubtedly still recruit at both places.

Another thing to think about is that there's probably more cyberlaw/IP-focused students at SLS (proportionally) than at HLS. But it has less faculty members in the area (again, proportionally). In my mind, that will probably help in terms of getting to know/work with faculty which is easier at SLS otherwise.

But don't get me wrong, SLS is still a great choice. Stanford is an awesome place and, for me, deciding to leave is really tough (that's probably why I still can't bring myself to finalize my decision).

PS. Sorry for the wall of text, I kinda needed to type all this out to justify my decision to myself... And also apologies for this HLS trolling in the Stanford thread. I still love Stanford and it will always be my alma mater (and the only US school that accepted me into two different graduate programs!).

[Dignan]

Yeah, I still don't trust him.

Anyway, in other news, this is hilarious: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Au_8GMUxVs

Is that from UVA's ASW?

[JohnnyTrojan08]

It seems to me that if anyone could choose SLS over HLS for anything other than location and size (which are purely matters of personal preference), one really good reason would be the breadth and strength of its interdisciplinary program in technology (specifically, computer science) & law.

after talking to professors and students at various places, I'm strongly leaning towards HLS. I think size gives HLS an advantage over SLS, as HLS has a greater breadth in its cyberlaw/IP faculty. There are 13 faculty members at the Berkman Center. There is also a patent expert at the Petrie-Flom Center (Benjamin Roin), and a full-time clinical faculty for the cyberlaw clinic (Phil Malone).

Contrast this with SLS, where there are only 3 faculty members in cyberlaw/IP.

Also, I think people overstate the importance of Stanford's location.

Another thing to think about is that there's probably more cyberlaw/IP-focused students at SLS (proportionally) than at HLS.

But don't get me wrong, SLS is still a great choice.

+1 to everything, except I withdrew from Stanford after meeting Jonathan Zittrain and sitting in on Advanced Intellectual Property at the Harvard ASW. From talking to both schools, you'll be fine either way, so make a choice based on your happiness!

[JohnnyTrojan08]

And if you're interested in taking classes in other departments (CS, etc.), you should almost for sure go to Stanford. From what I can tell, it is easier to do a joint degree at Stanford than at Harvard and the integration of other departments with the law school is more seamless at SLS than it is at HLS (this could be a function of SLS being smaller). Plus, Stanford's CS department is much, much better than Harvard's.

Crackberry, not sure if you went to Harvard's ASW or not, but my impression about dual degrees/outside credits at Harvard was completely different from what you describe. I spoke with the administrator of the joint degree programs there and have been in contact with several current JD/MBAs. The vast majority of students I spoke with had taken multiple courses outside the law school, an average of about 3 classes across 2L and 3L. The one exception for this, sadly, was the JD/MBA program where these excess credits are already allocated so that you can get your degree in one year less than it would normally take.

[saxamaflob]

I hope it won't upset anyone if I ask a comparative question: how would you compare SLS and HLS for cyberlaw, intellectual property, and (more generally) law & technology in general? I'm really torn. I know that Leiter puts HLS before SLS in terms of faculty quality for cyberlaw/intellectual property, but I wonder if USNews might be more on target when it puts SLS above HLS for the overall strength of the intellectual property program.

It seems to me that if anyone could choose SLS over HLS for anything other than location and size (which are purely matters of personal preference), one really good reason would be the breadth and strength of its interdisciplinary program in technology (specifically, computer science) & law.

I've been wrestling with the question of HLS vs. SLS for a while now, so here's some of my thoughts. Cyberlaw and IP are my biggest interests and after talking to professors and students at various places, I'm strongly leaning towards HLS. I think size gives HLS an advantage over SLS, as HLS has a greater breadth in its cyberlaw/IP faculty. There are 13 faculty members at the Berkman Center. There is also a patent expert at the Petrie-Flom Center (Benjamin Roin), and a full-time clinical faculty for the cyberlaw clinic (Phil Malone).

Contrast this with SLS, where there are only 3 faculty members in cyberlaw/IP. Now to be fair, two of them are probably the foremost experts in their fields (Mark Lemley in patents and Paul Goldstein in trademarks/copyright). But in cyberlaw, SLS unfortunately can't really compete, with only one single faculty member at the Center for Internet and Society. The cyberlaw clinic at SLS for example hasn't been run in the last 2 years. It's quite unfortunate that SLS' cyberlaw offerings are so few considering its location and the strength of the CS and EE departments.

Also, I think people overstate the importance of Stanford's location. Sure, it probably means more interesting guest speakers will be coming around more often. But when it comes to finding a job, it doesn't matter that much as most people will get a job through OCI, and IP firms will undoubtedly still recruit at both places.

Another thing to think about is that there's probably more cyberlaw/IP-focused students at SLS (proportionally) than at HLS. But it has less faculty members in the area (again, proportionally). In my mind, that will probably help in terms of getting to know/work with faculty which is easier at SLS otherwise.

But don't get me wrong, SLS is still a great choice. Stanford is an awesome place and, for me, deciding to leave is really tough (that's probably why I still can't bring myself to finalize my decision).

PS. Sorry for the wall of text, I kinda needed to type all this out to justify my decision to myself... And also apologies for this HLS trolling in the Stanford thread. I still love Stanford and it will always be my alma mater (and the only US school that accepted me into two different graduate programs!).

No need to excuse yourself Thanks for the thoughts. I agree that location of SLS doesn't seem to be a clear advantage, especially given that it's probably evened out by MIT near HLS.

The problem is that my interests extend beyond just cyberlaw (i.e. internet law) and intellectual property into questions of the future of artificial intelligence and robotics (see ABA's committee page: --LinkRemoved--). It seems to me that Stanford offers programs like the JD/MS and CodeX that might counterbalance the obvious advantages of Berkman.

But points about Stanford's surprisingly tiny size in Cyberlaw/IP are well-taken.

[saxamaflob]

And if you're interested in taking classes in other departments (CS, etc.), you should almost for sure go to Stanford. From what I can tell, it is easier to do a joint degree at Stanford than at Harvard and the integration of other departments with the law school is more seamless at SLS than it is at HLS (this could be a function of SLS being smaller). Plus, Stanford's CS department is much, much better than Harvard's.

Crackberry, not sure if you went to Harvard's ASW or not, but my impression about dual degrees/outside credits at Harvard was completely different from what you describe. I spoke with the administrator of the joint degree programs there and have been in contact with several current JD/MBAs. The vast majority of students I spoke with had taken multiple courses outside the law school, an average of about 3 classes across 2L and 3L. The one exception for this, sadly, was the JD/MBA program where these excess credits are already allocated so that you can get your degree in one year less than it would normally take.

Joint-degrees are way easier at Stanford than at Harvard. Harvard has exactly five joint degrees (http://www.law.harvard.edu/academics/de ... index.html). Other degrees must be concurrent, which have got to be more or less impossible due to constraints of time, money, and logistics. Stanford has something like 27 formal joint degrees and will help you design your own.

[crackberry]

I am not interested in cyperlaw/IP stuff so I admittedly don't know a ton about it, but frankly it seems ludicrous to me that someone could argue that Stanford's location is not a huge advantage in that area. Really you can argue that the only reason Stanford is such a great university overall is because of its location. Honestly, Stanford is in America's breadbasket. Harvard is in what was America's breadbasket 375 years ago.

[JohnnyTrojan08]

Joint-degrees are way easier at Stanford than at Harvard. Harvard has exactly five joint degrees (http://www.law.harvard.edu/academics/de ... index.html). Other degrees must be concurrent, which have got to be more or less impossible due to constraints of time, money, and logistics. Stanford has something like 27 formal joint degrees and will help you design your own.

Of course they're "easier" at Stanford, because they're already prescribed for you. There are fewer law school course offerings at SLS, so you basically add courses from the other degree. There are so many courses at HLS that you have to design your program yourself. That difference is a matter of personal preference and seems to be a general theme between the two schools in general. I happen to like the fact that I'll be able to pick and choose from a wider variety.

While those are--arguably significant--differences in implementation, you can do what you want at either school; I wasn't trying to say that joint degrees/cross registration at Harvard was easier than at Stanford, just that you can do what you want.

I feel that saying that HLS has "exactly" five joint degrees is disingenuous, especially if you allow that Stanford will help you design your own joint program. Harvard has a similar system for designing your own joint program, and has more faculty and administrators devoted exclusively to that task.

From the link you posted yourself, "In addition, opportunities to design a concurrent degree program are available to students interested in combining the J.D. with a graduate degree from a Harvard school with which we do not have a joint degree program or with another institution." In the IP/tech/research case, MIT might be relevant.

[JohnnyTrojan08]

I am not interested in cyperlaw/IP stuff so I admittedly don't know a ton about it, but frankly it seems ludicrous to me that someone could argue that Stanford's location is not a huge advantage in that area.

I think people were referring to ultimately securing jobs in the IP/cyberlaw market. In that regard, the two schools are equitable, and behind Berkeley as someone said earlier.

[saxamaflob]

Joint-degrees are way easier at Stanford than at Harvard. Harvard has exactly five joint degrees (http://www.law.harvard.edu/academics/de ... index.html). Other degrees must be concurrent, which have got to be more or less impossible due to constraints of time, money, and logistics. Stanford has something like 27 formal joint degrees and will help you design your own.

[…]

I feel that saying that HLS has "exactly" five joint degrees is disingenuous, especially if you allow that Stanford will help you design your own joint program. Harvard has a similar system for designing your own joint program, and has more faculty and administrators devoted exclusively to that task.

From the link you posted yourself, "In addition, opportunities to design a concurrent degree program are available to students interested in combining the J.D. with a graduate degree from a Harvard school with which we do not have a joint degree program or with another institution." In the IP/tech/research case, MIT might be relevant.

The operative word is "concurrent" at HLS, as I pointed out, which is a far cry from "joint" in terms of time, money, and logistics. “Concurrent" just means that you're working toward two separate degrees at the same time—no mean feat—while courses may not overlap at all. “Joint" means that courses count toward both degrees, effectively reducing the number of courses you have to take overall.

[JohnnyTrojan08]

The operative word is "concurrent" at HLS, as I pointed out, which is a far cry from "joint" in terms of time, money, and logistics. “Concurrent" just means that you're working toward two separate degrees at the same time—no mean feat—while courses may not overlap at all. “Joint" means that courses count toward both degrees, effectively reducing the number of courses you have to take overall.

I think at this point we're arguing semantics, which means we're headed to the right place.

I have no idea about the credit overlaps allowed by SLS programs, but at Harvard you have the equivalent of about 6 law courses, even for concurrent degrees. That's the equivalent of 1 year, which is all I expect to save from pursuing a joint program. Anything less than that would at least appear to sacrifice the academic integrity of the program; that's the reason I dismissed Penn's 3 year JD/MBA out of hand.

I have tried to agree with you that it is easier to do the set joint programs at SLS, but also point out that HLS has a wider array of courses already in the school and ultimately provides as much flexibility. Yes, pursuing a joint JD/PhD in computer science would require careful credit planning and difficult coursework at HLS. I think it'd be the same at SLS.

[ConMan345]

Hey Everybody! you've heard it here first, Stanford is a great place, but I need tos tretch my legs a bit---I'm withdrawing and going to Harvard in the fall!

Woohoo!

[Hey-O]

Hey Everybody! you've heard it here first, Stanford is a great place, but I need tos tretch my legs a bit---I'm withdrawing and going to Harvard in the fall!

Woohoo!

Excellent decision. As a member of the Stanford Waitlist I commend your decision. I would also like to put it out there that there are many schools that are superior to Stanford including:

Yale
Harvard
Columbia
NYU
Chicago
George McGovern
Phoenix Online

[CardinalRules]

Hey Everybody! you've heard it here first, Stanford is a great place, but I need tos tretch my legs a bit---I'm withdrawing and going to Harvard in the fall!

Woohoo!

Best of luck, ConMan!

[BioEBear2010]

Hey Everybody! you've heard it here first, Stanford is a great place, but I need tos tretch my legs a bit---I'm withdrawing and going to Harvard in the fall!

Woohoo!

Best of luck, ConMan!

Ditto! Sounds like you made the right choice (although we'll miss you in Palo Alto)!

[adameus]

Hey Everybody! you've heard it here first, Stanford is a great place, but I need tos tretch my legs a bit---I'm withdrawing and going to Harvard in the fall!

Woohoo!

Excellent decision. As a member of the Stanford Waitlist I commend your decision. I would also like to put it out there that there are many schools that are superior to Stanford including:

Yale
Harvard
Columbia
NYU
Chicago
George McGovern
Phoenix Online

haha, well played. Does anyone have any inkling how many people they accept initially? I imagine its more than just 180 as they can reasonably expect some people to withdraw.

[CardinalRules]

Hey Everybody! you've heard it here first, Stanford is a great place, but I need tos tretch my legs a bit---I'm withdrawing and going to Harvard in the fall!

Woohoo!

Excellent decision. As a member of the Stanford Waitlist I commend your decision. I would also like to put it out there that there are many schools that are superior to Stanford including:

Yale
Harvard
Columbia
NYU
Chicago
George McGovern
Phoenix Online

haha, well played. Does anyone have any inkling how many people they accept initially? I imagine its more than just 180 as they can reasonably expect some people to withdraw.

Their yield is less than 50%, so probably they accept more than 300 people.

[crackberry]

haha, well played. Does anyone have any inkling how many people they accept initially? I imagine its more than just 180 as they can reasonably expect some people to withdraw.

Their yield is less than 50%, so probably they accept more than 300 people.

Yeah but they often take a lot from the WL. I imagine SLS accepts right around 300 outright.

[chevygrl88]

Yeah, I still don't trust him.

Anyway, in other news, this is hilarious: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Au_8GMUxVs

That video completely made my day! I thought he had it when he finally tried to stand up... but instead his situation only got worse (and of course amazingly funny).

[mochafury]

haha, well played. Does anyone have any inkling how many people they accept initially? I imagine its more than just 180 as they can reasonably expect some people to withdraw.

Their yield is less than 50%, so probably they accept more than 300 people.

Yeah but they often take a lot from the WL. I imagine SLS accepts right around 300 outright.

300 including or excluding WLs?

[crackberry]

haha, well played. Does anyone have any inkling how many people they accept initially? I imagine its more than just 180 as they can reasonably expect some people to withdraw.

Their yield is less than 50%, so probably they accept more than 300 people.

Yeah but they often take a lot from the WL. I imagine SLS accepts right around 300 outright.

300 including or excluding WLs?

Excluding. Because then they have like a 45 percent yield (135 admits) and they admit the remainder off the WL. I'm convinced that SLS takes so many WLed applicants because they always think to themselves: "This is the year our yield is going to spike to 60 percent!" So they can't accept 400 people outright (which, with a 45 percent yield, would get 180 admits - the approx. size of an SLS class) because if their yield were actually to spike to even 50 percent, they'd have a huge class.

This is based off of absolutely zero inside knowledge.

[saxamaflob]

Food for thought (from Princeton Review):

Stanford University's Best Law Schools Rankings

• #5 Best Career Prospects
  #3 Best Classroom Experience
  #2 Best Quality of Life
  #4 Best Professors
  #3 Toughest To Get Into

Harvard University's Best Law Schools Rankings

• #8 Best Career Prospects
  #2 Toughest To Get Into

Yale University's Best Law Schools Rankings

• #1 Toughest To Get Into

Considering "Toughest To Get Into" isn't much of a benefit, I'd say Stanford is strictly, strongly dominant in the USNEWS top three.

[NightHooded]

I'd appreciate some SLS knowledge here: what are the key selling points of Stanford? (not weather... although I guess being able to exercise often and be cheerful do count for something )

what can you do at SLS that you can't do as well elsewhere? What type of law or university opportunities are especially good at Stanford? I am deciding on schools and if I enroll at SLS I want to make sure I play to its strengths, though I'm sure it's relatively top in all areas. To rephrase, how is SLS aiming towards the "future" in law/business without resting on laurels?

[Hey-O]

Is anyone else still waiting on a reply? They told me over the phone that I was WL, but that said it was dated 4-15. Shouldn't it be here by now? Eight days...that seems too long. I'm wondering how long I should wait before I call again and see where my letter is.