Washington and Lee Forum

[HERetICal]

Also not happy. Does anyone have the link for the original thread these were leaked in?

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=114393

[jmhendri]

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 4#p2828064

Maybe we should get a petition going to prevent US news from publishing rankings more frequently than every 5 years.

[GordonBombay]

Note on VA: Richmond got cruuuushed. Down to 90 I believe

[HERetICal]

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 4#p2828064

Maybe we should get a petition going to prevent US news from publishing rankings more frequently than every 5 years.

And that would matter how? year to year rankings aren't especially important, it's the long-term trajectory that you want to watch.... now given that W&L has had a recent negative trajectory, this is disconcerting, but given the implementation of a new, and as of yet, uproven, 3rd year program, this isn't very surprising.

[HERetICal]

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 4#p2828064

Maybe we should get a petition going to prevent US news from publishing rankings more frequently than every 5 years.

And that would matter how? year to year rankings aren't especially important, it's the long-term trajectory that you want to watch.... now given that W&L has had a recent negative trajectory, this is disconcerting, but given the implementation of a new, and as of yet, uproven, 3rd year program, this isn't very surprising.

After reading that, I realized I sound like an ass. Apologies for any perceived rudeness (it's been a long day in the office).

[jmhendri]

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 4#p2828064

Maybe we should get a petition going to prevent US news from publishing rankings more frequently than every 5 years.

And that would matter how? year to year rankings aren't especially important, it's the long-term trajectory that you want to watch.... now given that W&L has had a recent negative trajectory, this is disconcerting, but given the implementation of a new, and as of yet, uproven, 3rd year program, this isn't very surprising.

Precisely my point, they're only relevant on a longer term basis and if they were prevented from being published year to year they would cease in driving applicants needlessly nuts.

No apology necessary. I second the long day at the office sentiment.

[whatchootalkinbout]

Oh...that kinda sucks.

[GordonBombay]

So its pretty much cementing the jump of W&M over W&L last year. Still a good school, but it woulda been nice to bounce back a little.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Dumb stupid legal academia and it's skepticism towards practical legal experience...

Looking at the numbers, the assessment scores, LSAT, and GPA clearly place it above most of the other 34s (with the exception of Fordham) and most of the 28s. So, it's not he 3rd year. What seems to hurt W&L is the job placement and bar passage rates. As far as student and faculty quality, it seems to be quite underranked.

[GordonBombay]

Side note: Is anyone interested in an apt in town or a roomate? male most likely? I wanna be walking distance from school and anything in town if need be. There's no taxis in that town and the only thing I drive drunk are golf balls.

[primusux]

male most likely?

So you're saying you may or may not be male? When can we get a confirmation one way or the other?

[GordonBombay]

male most likely?

So you're saying you may or may not be male? When can we get a confirmation one way or the other?

Oh I'm all man. I just meant, as I've lived with female roomates before so I'm not ruling it out. However, as someone with experience in the matter, same gender roommates tends to work better

[primusux]

male most likely?

So you're saying you may or may not be male? When can we get a confirmation one way or the other?

Oh I'm all man. I just meant, as I've lived with female roomates before so I'm not ruling it out. However, as someone with experience in the matter, same gender roommates tends to work better

I knew what you meant, I'm just trying to lighten my own mood after these new rankings somewhat crushing my spirit.

[GordonBombay]

I hear you. Nothing like sending a seat deposit then watching your school continue to drop

[ruleser]

And what the hell happened with Davis?

That's the question of the year I think

[Johannes de Silentio]

I don't find the drop terribly disconcerting. Only one point separates W&L from a rank of 28. Sure, it might sound better to say the school is ranked 28th instead of 34th, but the difference accounting for that ranking is really quite minute. What is somewhat troubling is W&L's trend. From tied at 19th just 6 years ago, I believe, to 34th this year. Still though, that trend was nothing anybody didn't know about.

Thank you for listening to the rationalization of someone who sent in their seat deposit to W&L a week ago.

[Spaceman Spiff]

And what the hell happened with Davis?

That's the question of the year I think

Davis, the new IUB

[T14_Scholly]

What employer is going to care that a couple of imposter schools in bumf*** Midwest USA (or wherever the hell else) bumped W&L back a bit? None. People who hire have been in the industry for a while and their impression of the W&L name most likely hasn't changed. To think of W&L as "# 34," removed from all context, is meaningless.

[FUMAgrad05]

http://www.prelawhandbook.com/law_schoo ... restigious

I know this is a couple years out of date, but I was doing some research on the historical rankings and this looked somewhat promising. I was hoping to find other schools that dropped over a few years then rallied back towards the top, however I didn't find anything too comforting. Then I started thinking about it, and maybe my logic is flawed, but most people who are going to be hiring at the better firms graduated when W&L was a top 20 or 25, highly respected school (not that it isn't still highly reputable because of a lower rank). Not to say they ignore the rankings now, but ten years from now we probably won't remember, or maybe even care, what the rankings are or were/are. When we are hiring people we are going to look at their transcript and LORs and say "wow, you have great grades/credentials and went to_______(Fill it in with any t30 school)." We will look at a school for it's reputation and what we remember it as being during our time in school, not its current rank. So, my hoping is, that if we do well and end up towards the top of our class, our potential employers won't say "that's great, but didn't W&L drop from 20 to 34?", they'll look at it for the great school it is and give us as much deference as they would give anyone from a top school. The only reason W&L dropped (as far as I can tell) is because of the economy. Big schools, in big cities have the advantage during hard economic times because students can network everyday since they have the advantage of being a block down the street from hundreds of future employers the whole time they are in law school. It's not like the quality of education at W&L has suddenly disappeared in 5 years, or that all of the good professors have left. There just isn't the same opportunity to make close ties at big city firms like there is at GWU or Emory or wherever. Hopefully with the economy coming back up and this years class graduating and getting the word to employers about the 3L program, our numbers will be back in the mid %90's when we graduate.

Just another soon to be 1L trying to justify it all though...

[primusux]

or that all of the good professors have left.

Disclaimer: I have not been looking at schools for years like a lot of you so I don't know the trends, who has been there, who has left etc.

That being said....Recently I was speaking with a former W&L professor and they indicated that a lot of the best professors have left and are continuing to look elsewhere. Now, granted, they left the school so they may have an axe to grind, be trying to get me to attend their current school etc. But the feeling I got was that they genuinely believed W&L 'used' to be a great school but that that has changed. Like a lot of us they also thought the dean leaving was a huge issue. Now, I attended the ASW and W&L did state it was certain professors who were behind it and the dean was just the salesman, but it does make you wonder how the school is perceived elsewhere and if that perception continues to cause the ranking to fall, justified or not, are we all going to be screwed in 3 years when we try to find a job?

[Spaceman Spiff]

http://www.prelawhandbook.com/law_schoo ... restigious

I know this is a couple years out of date, but I was doing some research on the historical rankings and this looked somewhat promising. I was hoping to find other schools that dropped over a few years then rallied back towards the top, however I didn't find anything too comforting. Then I started thinking about it, and maybe my logic is flawed, but most people who are going to be hiring at the better firms graduated when W&L was a top 20 or 25, highly respected school (not that it isn't still highly reputable because of a lower rank). Not to say they ignore the rankings now, but ten years from now we probably won't remember, or maybe even care, what the rankings are or were/are. When we are hiring people we are going to look at their transcript and LORs and say "wow, you have great grades/credentials and went to_______(Fill it in with any t30 school)." We will look at a school for it's reputation and what we remember it as being during our time in school, not its current rank. So, my hoping is, that if we do well and end up towards the top of our class, our potential employers won't say "that's great, but didn't W&L drop from 20 to 34?", they'll look at it for the great school it is and give us as much deference as they would give anyone from a top school. The only reason W&L dropped (as far as I can tell) is because of the economy. Big schools, in big cities have the advantage during hard economic times because students can network everyday since they have the advantage of being a block down the street from hundreds of future employers the whole time they are in law school. It's not like the quality of education at W&L has suddenly disappeared in 5 years, or that all of the good professors have left. There just isn't the same opportunity to make close ties at big city firms like there is at GWU or Emory or wherever. Hopefully with the economy coming back up and this years class graduating and getting the word to employers about the 3L program, our numbers will be back in the mid %90's when we graduate.

Just another soon to be 1L trying to justify it all though...

No, I don't think your logic is flawed. The rankings don't seem to matter much to anyone except soon-to-be law students. However, a decrease in the rankings could mean a subsequent drop in the quality of the students applying. We would then expect the GPA and LSAT score medians to drop, followed by a further decline in rank. I'm not sure if this theory has played out in years past, but it seems possible. I'm not that bothered by the decline. The reputation of the school appears to exceed its rank, and really, reputation is much more important than rank.

[dk8]

or that all of the good professors have left.

Disclaimer: I have not been looking at schools for years like a lot of you so I don't know the trends, who has been there, who has left etc.

That being said....Recently I was speaking with a former W&L professor and they indicated that a lot of the best professors have left and are continuing to look elsewhere. Now, granted, they left the school so they may have an axe to grind, be trying to get me to attend their current school etc. But the feeling I got was that they genuinely believed W&L 'used' to be a great school but that that has changed. Like a lot of us they also thought the dean leaving was a huge issue. Now, I attended the ASW and W&L did state it was certain professors who were behind it and the dean was just the salesman, but it does make you wonder how the school is perceived elsewhere and if that perception continues to cause the ranking to fall, justified or not, are we all going to be screwed in 3 years when we try to find a job?

The difference between W&L and the rest of the schools that aren't in the top 17 just aren't that large. W&L moving up to 25 wouldn't open a treasure trove of new employment opportunities. Likewise, its recent drop isn't shutting a vast amount of doors that used to be open. For most schools outside of the T14 Vandy/UCLA/UT, you are going to have to be at the very top of your class to get biglaw or have some national mobility. It's a largely regional school (albeit a top regional school) just like the rest of the non top schools.

[primusux]

Looking at the judge/lawyer score its still pretty damn high which is nice to see.

[GordonBombay]

Whenever I check the firm lists of those who interview I can never seem to find many W&L grads. I always see more W&M and Richmond, in VA at least. Anyone else? Seems concerning.

[nol607]

William & Mary is a bit bigger, not sure if that accounts for the discrepancy. At least the 2008 OCI list was really impressive?