Harvard Law c/o 2020 Waitlist Forum

[Rigo]

I'm skeptical that visiting actually does anything other than "showing interest" which you would already be doing with a LOCI.
I live a couple hours from Harvard but I don't plan on visiting (I've already been before this cycle). Visiting schools is mostly just silly. You put your name on a visitor list then just leave pretty much. I sat in on a class at Columbia but that was pretty dumb.
Ymmv I guess.

[Rigo]

Harvard knows they're Harvard. Theyre probably gonna throw you a feeler JS1b anyways to make sure you're still interested if you visit or not.
Tops it will just give you another few sentences in your LOCI, but talking about how you love the architecture is super hollow (especially because Harvard campus isn't even that great imo).

[notsonotorious]

I'm skeptical that visiting actually does anything other than "showing interest" which you would already be doing with a LOCI.
I live a couple hours from Harvard but I don't plan on visiting (I've already been before this cycle). Visiting schools is mostly just silly. You put your name on a visitor list then just leave pretty much. I sat in on a class at Columbia but that was pretty dumb.
Ymmv I guess.

Lol - I guess i'm a dork then because I loved all the classes I visited at all the school. At no school was it like "wow, this class is shit, this school must suck", but there are subtle differences that I could observe in how the profs handle the students, how students treat each other, that I think - rightly or wrongly - tell you something about the school. Like, this will be 90% of your life for 3 years so..

[notsonotorious]

Harvard knows they're Harvard. Theyre probably gonna throw you a feeler JS1b anyways to make sure you're still interested if you visit or not.
Tops it will just give you another few sentences in your LOCI, but talking about how you love the architecture is super hollow (especially because Harvard campus isn't even that great imo).

Haha wasn't saying that one should talk about architecture in the LOCI!!! But that was kind of my point that beyond checking out the buildings, I don't see the point of visiting if you can't even attend class...

[Rigo]

I'm skeptical that visiting actually does anything other than "showing interest" which you would already be doing with a LOCI.
I live a couple hours from Harvard but I don't plan on visiting (I've already been before this cycle). Visiting schools is mostly just silly. You put your name on a visitor list then just leave pretty much. I sat in on a class at Columbia but that was pretty dumb.
Ymmv I guess.

Lol - I guess i'm a dork then because I loved all the classes I visited at all the school. At no school was it like "wow, this class is shit, this school must suck", but there are subtle differences that I could observe in how the profs handle the students, how students treat each other, that I think - rightly or wrongly - tell you something about the school. Like, this will be 90% of your life for 3 years so..

Eh I think it tells you more about the prof than the school culture but maybe you're much more perceptive.

[notsonotorious]

I'm skeptical that visiting actually does anything other than "showing interest" which you would already be doing with a LOCI.
I live a couple hours from Harvard but I don't plan on visiting (I've already been before this cycle). Visiting schools is mostly just silly. You put your name on a visitor list then just leave pretty much. I sat in on a class at Columbia but that was pretty dumb.
Ymmv I guess.

Lol - I guess i'm a dork then because I loved all the classes I visited at all the school. At no school was it like "wow, this class is shit, this school must suck", but there are subtle differences that I could observe in how the profs handle the students, how students treat each other, that I think - rightly or wrongly - tell you something about the school. Like, this will be 90% of your life for 3 years so..

Eh I think it tells you more about the prof than the school culture but maybe you're much more perceptive.

Or maybe it was selective perception and confirmation bias

As an example, I thought the kids at Stanford had much more of a rapport with one another than at NYU. It's also a function of class size, I guess?
Anyway, I hear all kind of horror stories about Harvard and that fact that they won't let you see a class makes me feel like they must be hiding something..

[Rigo]

Anyway, I hear all kind of horror stories about Harvard and that fact that they won't let you see a class makes me feel like they must be hiding something..

It might just be because Harvard is so prestigious so they'd have thousands of applicants wanting to sit in on a class even if there was no chance they'd be accepted. It'd prove to be a distraction for profs and the student body.

[notsonotorious]

Anyway, I hear all kind of horror stories about Harvard and that fact that they won't let you see a class makes me feel like they must be hiding something..

It might just be because Harvard is so prestigious so they'd have thousands of applicants wanting to sit in on a class even if there was no chance they'd be accepted. It'd prove to be a distraction for profs and the student body.

True .. the logistics could get unwieldy.

[4'sup]

Whats the consensus on whether it means anything if you were a JS1 -->WL applicant? I got my JS1 in late March and was WL'd a week later. Is it more favorable to be in this group than a JSNone? Does this mean I definitely botched the interview? Stats: GPA way below median, LSAT above median.

Received wisdom from last year's thread says:

- Pre-waitlist JS1 > no pre-waitlist JS1
- Post-waitlist JS1 > pre-waitlist JS1

Don't know how strong that first "greater than" sign is though. There are plenty of JS1 --> WL every year, so I doubt it means you did anything in particular wrong.

Your GPA puts you solidly in WL territory; on LSN there is only one legit non-URM/international acceptance at ~3.5 or lower, and that one dude(ette) was a vet. I'm sure that was waaaay more of a consideration than your interview. The fact that you already got a JS1 probably bodes as well as anything else for your WL chances.

Thanks for the insight! It's greatly appreciated.

[sittykitty]

Whats the consensus on whether it means anything if you were a JS1 -->WL applicant? I got my JS1 in late March and was WL'd a week later. Is it more favorable to be in this group than a JSNone? Does this mean I definitely botched the interview? Stats: GPA way below median, LSAT above median.

Received wisdom from last year's thread says:

- Pre-waitlist JS1 > no pre-waitlist JS1
- Post-waitlist JS1 > pre-waitlist JS1

Don't know how strong that first "greater than" sign is though. There are plenty of JS1 --> WL every year, so I doubt it means you did anything in particular wrong.

Your GPA puts you solidly in WL territory; on LSN there is only one legit non-URM/international acceptance at ~3.5 or lower, and that one dude(ette) was a vet. I'm sure that was waaaay more of a consideration than your interview. The fact that you already got a JS1 probably bodes as well as anything else for your WL chances.

Is that wisdom based on any statistics? Like, just common sense-wise, yeah, it's better to have gotten a JS1 before being WL than none at all, since they were interested enough to interview you in the first place. But obviously a post-WL JS1 (or even a JS1b) trumps anything because it means they're interested in accepting you off the wait list. So is the conversion above supported by numbers in terms of actual admits, e.g., people who received pre-WL JS1s had a higher % of acceptance off the WL than JSNones? Very curious about this.

[LenasLuthors]

Harvard knows they're Harvard. Theyre probably gonna throw you a feeler JS1b anyways to make sure you're still interested if you visit or not.
Tops it will just give you another few sentences in your LOCI, but talking about how you love the architecture is super hollow (especially because Harvard campus isn't even that great imo).

Haha wasn't saying that one should talk about architecture in the LOCI!!! But that was kind of my point that beyond checking out the buildings, I don't see the point of visiting if you can't even attend class...

Hey, I didn't just walk around looking at architecture guys . Although, I did spend a decent amount of time in the library, observing how studious the students were, avoiding running into the large columns, and trying to read some of the engravings! And Rigo, I hear you on the appearance, but I actually think that is limited to the exterior. I really liked the inside of the new student center (Wasserstein Hall and Caspersen). I mentioned more details to notsonotorious, but I had personal reasons to be there anyways and had the opportunity to meet up with several people at HLS. It was those experiences that really sold me on several aspects of HLS. Without those things, I'm not sure it would be as useful.

Then again, this isn't even HLS-specific, but for me, it was also useful just to see how safe and how drivable Boston felt. For some reason, I had imagined it being traffic jams 24/7, but it was really pretty easy for me to get around in a rental car. Cambridge was also way cuter than I imagined.

TLDR: Visit a law school for you and not for them? If you have specific things that you want to find out about a law school that are not evident online, then I think visiting can be helpful, especially if you have connections at the school or can arrange meetings with people that might have insight into your questions. Honestly, I visited HLS with the goal of figuring out if I could cross it off my list because of $$$ and class size, but I came away from it realizing that it is likely my dream school and that I actually really liked the class size, location, intellectual vibe, and so much more. If your only goal is to try to increase your chance at admissions, then visiting a school like HLS where you don't even sign in is probably only going to be what you make of it, perhaps only architectural .

Checking out a class would have been great, but I do understand that HLS may be inundated by requests for that kind of thing and understand a need to draw a line. Going to some of the events a current HLS student took me to helped me to get a gauge of the atmosphere in a similar way that I would have from a class but still not quite the same thing, and this may not be something everyone would have access to.

[alpinespring]

I'm skeptical that visiting actually does anything other than "showing interest" which you would already be doing with a LOCI.
I live a couple hours from Harvard but I don't plan on visiting (I've already been before this cycle). Visiting schools is mostly just silly. You put your name on a visitor list then just leave pretty much. I sat in on a class at Columbia but that was pretty dumb.
Ymmv I guess.

Lol - I guess i'm a dork then because I loved all the classes I visited at all the school. At no school was it like "wow, this class is shit, this school must suck", but there are subtle differences that I could observe in how the profs handle the students, how students treat each other, that I think - rightly or wrongly - tell you something about the school. Like, this will be 90% of your life for 3 years so..

Eh I think it tells you more about the prof than the school culture but maybe you're much more perceptive.

Or maybe it was selective perception and confirmation bias

As an example, I thought the kids at Stanford had much more of a rapport with one another than at NYU. It's also a function of class size, I guess?
Anyway, I hear all kind of horror stories about Harvard and that fact that they won't let you see a class makes me feel like they must be hiding something..

LOL what kind of horror stories did you hear about Harvard?

[enoca]

Is that wisdom based on any statistics? Like, just common sense-wise, yeah, it's better to have gotten a JS1 before being WL than none at all, since they were interested enough to interview you in the first place. But obviously a post-WL JS1 (or even a JS1b) trumps anything because it means they're interested in accepting you off the wait list. So is the conversion above supported by numbers in terms of actual admits, e.g., people who received pre-WL JS1s had a higher % of acceptance off the WL than JSNones? Very curious about this.

Definitely seems like pretty rough guidance. The data is sparse. Looking back through the past few years' threads and spreadsheets I see:

2013 WL

JS1: 11/30 (37%)
No JS1: 12/81 (15%)

2014 WL (Potential sorting corruption in spreadsheet)

JS1: 2/33 (6%)
No JS1: 16/50 (32%)

2015 WL (much smaller, dinkier spreadsheet)

JS1s: 5/10 (50%)
No JS1s: 1/22 (5%)

2016 WL

Didn't even bother making a spreadsheet, Harvard had a huge yield, and barely anybody got in at all.

TL;DR - Don't bother trying to predict what's gonna happen. There's poor data and no one pattern.

[SpookySalem92]

Is that wisdom based on any statistics?

TL;DR - Don't bother trying to predict what's gonna happen. There's poor data and no one pattern.

Fair point, but on the topic of poor data I'm a bit skeptical about the comprehensiveness of last year's thread given that it didn't seem to be terribly active/OP didn't create a spreadsheet. Regarding yield--will we have any indicator after the deposit deadline of what that will look like at HLS for this cycle? I know in the blog post they said they'll start dinging folks if it's clear they'll be short on spots, but barring that is there any way to know what to expect for WL movement?

[sittykitty]

Is that wisdom based on any statistics?

TL;DR - Don't bother trying to predict what's gonna happen. There's poor data and no one pattern.

Fair point, but on the topic of poor data I'm a bit skeptical about the comprehensiveness of last year's thread given that it didn't seem to be terribly active/OP didn't create a spreadsheet. Regarding yield--will we have any indicator after the deposit deadline of what that will look like at HLS for this cycle? I know in the blog post they said they'll start dinging folks if it's clear they'll be short on spots, but barring that is there any way to know what to expect for WL movement?

WL acceptance rate is inversely proportional to the number of tears you shed onto your pillow each night

[notsonotorious]

Is that wisdom based on any statistics?

TL;DR - Don't bother trying to predict what's gonna happen. There's poor data and no one pattern.

Fair point, but on the topic of poor data I'm a bit skeptical about the comprehensiveness of last year's thread given that it didn't seem to be terribly active/OP didn't create a spreadsheet. Regarding yield--will we have any indicator after the deposit deadline of what that will look like at HLS for this cycle? I know in the blog post they said they'll start dinging folks if it's clear they'll be short on spots, but barring that is there any way to know what to expect for WL movement?

WL acceptance rate is inversely proportional to the number of tears you shed onto your pillow each night

This.

[notsonotorious]

LOL what kind of horror stories did you hear about Harvard?

That it attracts cutthroat assholes obsessed with pedigree, basically. (To be clear, I'm skeptical of received wisdom like this because in my experience, many ambitious smart people could be described that way -- and can be either insufferable or extremely inspiring/motivating to be around, or both, depending on the day )

[sittykitty]

Also lowkey freaking out at how many Yale WLers are depositing at HLS

[enoca]

Fair point, but on the topic of poor data I'm a bit skeptical about the comprehensiveness of last year's thread given that it didn't seem to be terribly active/OP didn't create a spreadsheet. Regarding yield--will we have any indicator after the deposit deadline of what that will look like at HLS for this cycle? I know in the blog post they said they'll start dinging folks if it's clear they'll be short on spots, but barring that is there any way to know what to expect for WL movement?

I don't think it is comprehensive either (thus why I didn't even bother to try and ferret out some numbers), but:

(A) LSN also showed a huge drop off last year.

(B) At least one person in last year's thread stated that the adcom directly told them in their interview that H had a high yield and there would be a small WL group.

[SpookySalem92]

Fair point, but on the topic of poor data I'm a bit skeptical about the comprehensiveness of last year's thread given that it didn't seem to be terribly active/OP didn't create a spreadsheet. Regarding yield--will we have any indicator after the deposit deadline of what that will look like at HLS for this cycle? I know in the blog post they said they'll start dinging folks if it's clear they'll be short on spots, but barring that is there any way to know what to expect for WL movement?

I don't think it is comprehensive either (thus why I didn't even bother to try and ferret out some numbers), but:

(A) LSN also showed a huge drop off last year.

(B) At least one person in last year's thread stated that the adcom directly told them in their interview that H had a high yield and there would be a small WL group.

Thanks for following up. Maybe I'm just harping on a point that others have already considered and ruled out, but are there any indications we'd have to go on for yield projections then? Did people know at this point last year that it was gonna be a rough cycle for those on the WL? C'mon, hidden logic game, reveal yourself!

[curry1]

Also lowkey freaking out at how many Yale WLers are depositing at HLS

Yale WLer who is also on the HLS wl ... lol

[enoca]

Honestly given the huge drop off in 171+ LSATs this year, I doubt using previous years as a guidepost is gonna be too useful. H has a huge class drawn almost exclusively from the scores that have dropped off. They are gonna have to tread pretty carefully if want to maintain their medians/75ths. My guess is they will consider some folks who would normally have almost no chance, and the waitlist will see a decent amount of action.

[sittykitty]

Honestly given the huge drop off in 171+ LSATs this year, I doubt using previous years as a guidepost is gonna be too useful. H has a huge class drawn almost exclusively from the scores that have dropped off. They are gonna have to tread pretty carefully if want to maintain their medians/75ths. My guess is they will consider some folks who would normally have almost no chance, and the waitlist will see a decent amount of action.

From your lips to JS's ears

[Rigo]

Honestly given the huge drop off in 171+ LSATs this year, I doubt using previous years as a guidepost is gonna be too useful. H has a huge class drawn almost exclusively from the scores that have dropped off. They are gonna have to tread pretty carefully if want to maintain their medians/75ths. My guess is they will consider some folks who would normally have almost no chance, and the waitlist will see a decent amount of action.

Yeah a lot will depend on if they're like ahh fuck it this month and realize a 171 is gonna happen and just start GPA whoring.

[SpookySalem92]

Honestly given the huge drop off in 171+ LSATs this year, I doubt using previous years as a guidepost is gonna be too useful. H has a huge class drawn almost exclusively from the scores that have dropped off. They are gonna have to tread pretty carefully if want to maintain their medians/75ths. My guess is they will consider some folks who would normally have almost no chance, and the waitlist will see a decent amount of action.

Yeah a lot will depend on if they're like ahh fuck it this month and realize a 171 is gonna happen and just start GPA whoring.

Interesting...so you think if they accept a drop in LSAT scores they'd try to improve their GPA profile to compensate? Why wouldn't that place upward pressure on prioritizing higher LSAT individuals on the WL, or conversely just accepting the numerical profile as is and focusing on softs etc...