Washington and Lee C/O 2017, Applicants Thread (2013-2014) Forum

[lhanvt13]

also a drop in median gpa from 3.62 (http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=wl) to 3.51 http://law.wlu.edu/admissions/nalp/Std5 ... rt2013.pdf

Pretty much across the board for most schools. Also, we were the only top 30 school to keep LSAT numbers

[pedestrian]

also a drop in median gpa from 3.62 (http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=wl) to 3.51 http://law.wlu.edu/admissions/nalp/Std5 ... rt2013.pdf

Pretty much across the board for most schools. Also, we were the only top 30 50 school to keep LSAT numbers

[lhanvt13]

also a drop in median gpa from 3.62 (http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=wl) to 3.51 http://law.wlu.edu/admissions/nalp/Std5 ... rt2013.pdf

Pretty much across the board for most schools. Also, we were the only top 30 50 school to keep LSAT numbers

Welp, even worse ...
Also, forgot to mention "except for YHS"

[Roberrrrto]

^this discussion isn't for this thread. Not agreeing or disagreeing but the mods won't like it

not trying to cause trouble, but why would data that people consider when making their decision, specific to the school in question, not be relevant to the applicant thread

The thread is about applications/admittance/waitlist/rejections. Discussion about whether attending a school is worth it etc. is for a separate sub forum. I don't make the rules. I'm telling him/her that those are the mod rules.

Edit: maybe the "choosing a law school" forum?

I saw this under the "most recent" sections and I had to comment. This is exactly the kind of thing that should be discussed here, especially considering W&L is a very expensive private school. TLS is not a recruiting board; it is a forum for applicants to discuss things regarding the law school admissions process and decision making on where to spend the next 3 years and tens of thousands of dollars. A 17 spot drop in the rankings is CATASTROPHIC and applicants have the right to discuss why this happened and if it is a fluke or a sign of future things to come. TLS is not about suppressing very relevant information.

According to Above the Law, it is because of the new 3L curriculum (something every applicant should worry about). Here's the link followed by the text: http://abovethelaw.com/2014/03/the-u-s- ... restige/2/

"UPDATE (9:10 P.M.): ELIE HERE: And now with a bit of a look at what happened with Washington & Lee. Let’s call this section “Washington & Lee’s Experiential Learning Seems To Be A Flop.”

Please remember this the next time a law professor or law school dean tries to sell you a load of bull about “revamping” 3L year. Washington & Lee did just that. The school changed its third-year program to focus on so-called “practice ready” skills.

Employers didn’t take the bait. As we explained this summer, Washington & Lee’s job numbers are really down. Then this fall, we told you that W&L had the most dramatic drop in class size. The class of 2016 at W&L is down just over 40 percent.

Now, U.S. News has come in with the hammer. W&L has dropped from #26 last year to #43 this year. When reached for comment, George Washington and Robert E. Lee said, “THE CENTER MUST HOLD! Wait, what are we talking about?”

Just remember, when legal academics try to sell you on “practice readiness,” they might not necessarily have any idea what they’re talking about."

[imnottelling]

A 17 spot drop in the rankings is significant, but I feel compelled to argue that rankings are not everything. Perhaps I am just trying to rationalize a decision to stay, but I think not.

A bit of background: I am a 1L who did very well last semester. The T14 that I applied to and got rejected from during my admissions cycle are absolutely in striking range for transfer because I have the grades, the references, and the connection to those locations. That being said, I am not transferring because of this drop. Here's why:

1) Law school is not all about grades and rankings, it is also about relationships.

I have made tremendous relationships at this school. I would feel comfortable emailing all of my last semester professors this week (it's our spring break) and ask for a Letter of Recommendation. I would have little doubt that I would get a positive reply by Friday at the latest. I have already had half a dozen Skype chats with alumni about their respective professions. They are there and do want to help, you just have to be willing to ask. Also, with such a small class, you get to know your peers (in other classes too). They will be your network later and such small class sizes help make lasting connections.

2) The faculty ratio and the healthy mix of experts-in-their-field professors and mentor-type professors that are always available.

I have walked upstairs to talk to professors outside of their office hours countless times, and they have always been welcoming and willing to answer my questions. To me, that is valuable. Additionally, I know several of my classmates who will be doing research for their professor in addition to a summer job. Part of that is that the opportunity to do so is just simply there because of the low faculty-to-student ratio.

3) Opportunity for Law Review, Moot Court, Mock Trial, Externships and Clinics

With four journals, 110 students, and each journal hiring between 10-25 writers, my chances of getting on a journal through the write on competition is high. Additionally, the number of clinics the schools offer also increases my chance of clinic work. Lastly, every student is able to compete in mock trial and moot court in a school wide competition. That experience is not available everywhere. Bottom Line: the school creates a lot of opportunities to beef up your resume for a small number of students making the competition not as cutthroat.

4) Other considerations

a) The 40% drop in class size
The drop in class size between c/o 2015 and c/0 2016 is a return to normal class size. The c/o 2015 was ~180 students. The c/o 2014 was ~130. The c/o 2016 ~110 students. There was an issue of over enrollment in 2015. The drop is just bringing it back to normal numbers.

b) The 3rd year curriculum
Okay, so employers didn't buy the 3rd year "experiential" learning. Guess what? 3L's have the option of taking classes in addition to doing a clinic, making their third year appear more traditional. The 3L at W&L is not bound to be working for free outside of school the entire time in an effort to appease employers.

c) Location
Yes, W&L is in the middle of nowhere. Luckily, I desperately want to live in the middle of nowhere. I may be unique in that I did not attend W&L to get a job in a far away state I have no ties to. I went to get a job in NC, VA, WV, or DC (I have significant job ties). I am actively working to create a name for myself in this area, and had no illusions about regionalism. I strongly encourage all those looking to apply to law school take a moment to consider the reality that outside of the T14, mobility is restricted.

Bottom line: the relationships, opportunities, location are all compelling me to stay despite the drop. I have no desire to start all over with that, not have an opportunity for scholarship, law review, etc. I hope those considering any school anywhere go deeper than what we suspect admissions offices do and look at things beyond just the numbers so you find a place that is the right fit for you.

Edit:
Forgot to also mention that law school applications went down 50% between those for c/o 2015 and those for c/o 2017 (from close to 60k down to about 30k). I am curious to see what that will do to the job market, specifically for schools that are a little further outside of big cities like W&L (and are actively recruited by some legal markets, like Charleston, WV).

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

Ermagod. So much rankings derp in this thread.

Im a 3L at a school way across the country, but I can't help but post and tell you guys to chill. This magazine ranking should absolutely not effect your decision. They won't change W&L. Everyone is fine.

I remember when I chose my school three years ago. The school I chose, CU-Boulder, dropped from 35 to 47 in the rankings before a sent in my seat deposit. I wondered some of the same things you are wondering now. When I arrived on campus, someone asked the dean about the rankings drop. He told us that just three years before then the school dropped from 29 to 44 in one year. Said "to the extent these rankings measure a quality education, we want to have a good ranking." The look on his face read "rankings=bullshit."

W&L will probably bounce back in the rankings because they are cyclical nonsense. Even if the school doesn't, it will not effect your career. What matters is the opinion of people who will hire you. The vast majority of these people won't even know about W&L's new ranking. A large amount of attorneys went to school during a time when USNEWS school rankings didn't even exist; they had opinions back then too.

One last anecdote. Just noticed that a school I had a full ride at three years ago has moved from unranked, outside the top 144 schools, to #72, tied with a school a actually considered attending at a reduced cost. That school was "T1" three years ago. How can these rankings produce useful data with volatility like this? Note, the employed nine months from graduation numbers at both of these schools has remained constant throughout.

[bourgeois]

While the drop does bode poorly, I don't need to remind people about how inherently flawed a lot of the USN weekly rankings and methodology is. That being said, there HAS to be some weight put on it because IT IS (for whatever arbitrary reason) the most heeded of the rankings. In the end of the day I think the best way to go about the decision is with a personal judgement call.

Here the take of a simple peasant.

Before I visited the school for the ASW I honestly wasn't considering going. But after a full day of meeting with teachers and faculty I found myself falling in love with the school. The faculty placed in the top of many of their fields and the ratio of students to teachers ensured personal relationships between everyone. The town, while small, was absolutely beautiful and was quite pleasant as small towns go. Somewhere a student could go and find a peaceful place to study (if you're into that sort of thing). The most impressive thing, however, was the other students. I liked literally, and I am using that in its literal definition, every student I met. From touring the school and getting drinks with people after, I felt that I could have been great friends and studying companions with any of these people. Upon leaving the school I felt that W&L had not only a new found respect in my eyes, but also fought its way to a very strong consideration.

My advice to anyone that would be considering the school is...DON'T LET THIS BE THE NAIL ON THE COFFIN. I can't begrudge anyone that has this drop in ranking give them pause (especially since I am foremost among them), but at least visit the school. You might find you'll fall in love with it. The new year 3L program, while scathingly reviewed by USN and the ATL post, IS NOT YET FULLY TESTED. They only recently made the 3L program mandatory for students and it does take a few years sometimes for a program to be accredited. While it could actually be JUST A FLOP, I think it could also just be coming to its own. Sometimes waves of change are viewed negatively at first before they are fully embraced.

In the end of the day, it's a personal judgement call. Potential scholarships might make this school worth the risk for some and not to others. Some people might not think the risk is worth it period (can't blame em). Just take things like ratings with a grain of salt.

[lhanvt13]

TL;DFR.
Anyway, rankings matter because some 0Ls factor them into their decision.rankings flip flop every year. Only thing that should matter is the employment statistics that come out in April. Only if they're as bad as the class of 2012, THEN you might want to reconsider. If not, the rankings don't mean shit

[raininthedesert]

LOL.

Read between the lines: "I chose this school because of the large scholarship monies offered to me."

No one is detracting from the quality of education at W&L. The model, however, is flawed and your self-promotion is misleading to admits and future applicants. A quality education in an urban environment where you want to work and live should take precedence. You will start to see this trend play out even further in future rankings as the expensive and rural private schools (e.g., W&L, Baylor, etc.) shift and lump together in the rankings.

The key is employment and if 50% of a student body of 120 -- one of the smallest in the country -- struggle to be placed..."Houston, we have a problem!"

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

The 3L program could not have effected the rankings unless you are blaming it for causing the lower employment rate, in which case you would be wrong. Read the methodology for the rankings. Most of the input is GPA/LSAT, reputation surveys averaged over two years, and money spent per student. Yeah employment is factored in but most schools outside the top 20 or so have eerily similar employment stats.

[A. Nony Mouse]

This is exactly the kind of thing that should be discussed here, especially considering W&L is a very expensive private school.

It's an important discussion; this is the wrong forum for it. This forum is for sharing information about acceptances, wait lists, and denials. It is not a forum for debating the school's merits. Please read the rules at the top of the forum, and take the discussion of W&L's merits elsewhere.

[Baby_Got_Feuerbach]

Maybe I simply missed it before but I now see 'First Tuition Deposit' and 'Second Tuition Deposit' on my status checker page. Both amounts are $0.

Does it mean anything or am I stretching for signs?

[luuma]

Just got wait listed. It was a reach school for me but i'll wait it out and see what happens.

reach out to dean mcshay. It was a reach school for me and I still got in somehow. Just let him know you're really interested and ask for an interview or something.

It's true. He's incredibly nice and reaches out to the students and responds to emails. This is a great idea!

[luuma]

So can someone help explain the 17 spot drop in ranking?

Ya, almost fell off my chair this morning.

Not sure why anyone needs to see the numbers that went into the methodology. W&L has historically poor placement numbers, the GPA and LSAT scores of matriculating students willing to pay close to full tuition (somebody has to offset the ridiculous number of scholarships) are dropping year over year which is impacting the ranges & medians, the in-staters have been choosing W&M for the past 2-3 years in large numbers, and the lay reputation continues its slow deterioration now that it's not the 1800's.

The ranking will surely deteriorate further in the coming years as well -- keep in mind the school admitted the largest class size in its history due to unexpected scholarship yields and these individuals will be attempting to obtain jobs outside of rural Virginia in next two years. Furthermore, this cycle will see scholarship recipients choosing slightly lower scholarship offers at schools in substantive urban job markets over rural markets with a lack of networking and other meaningful externship opportunities during the academic year.

Thanks so much for the info! I really appreciate you posting this.

[kaze950]

I think I'd have to see employment data before caring about the 17 drop in rankings. I mean, they went from 34 to 26 from 2010 to 2013, despite % employed only getting lower between those years, so I have no idea if the drop of rankings even correlates to that figure or if it's based on something else, like their 3L program, or if it's just USN's way of compensating for the perhaps unjustified rise in rankings W&L enjoyed these past couple of years.

Either way, I'm trying not to let it affect my decision to attend W&L or not. If the USN rankings show anything it's that a few years can make a big difference, and 2017 is a few years away.

By the way, is there anyone here who went to the Feb. ASW? What sort of turnout was there? I'm planning on going to the one at the end of march, since if nothing else it's an essentially free trip, just wondering how the earlier one went. Thanks.

[Baby_Got_Feuerbach]

Okay so I know this really isn't the appropriate thread for debate but I'm going to comment anyway, while pretending that USNWR's rankings actually matter much: most students try and secure employment before March of their 3L year. If W&L's reputation has really taken a hit, and employers aren't going to Lexington anymore, there really isn't much time for that to improve.

I think I'd have to see employment data before caring about the 17 drop in rankings. I mean, they went from 34 to 26 from 2010 to 2013, despite % employed only getting lower between those years, so I have no idea if the drop of rankings even correlates to that figure or if it's based on something else, like their 3L program, or if it's just USN's way of compensating for the perhaps unjustified rise in rankings W&L enjoyed these past couple of years.

Either way, I'm trying not to let it affect my decision to attend W&L or not. If the USN rankings show anything it's that a few years can make a big difference, and 2017 is a few years away.

By the way, is there anyone here who went to the Feb. ASW? What sort of turnout was there? I'm planning on going to the one at the end of march, since if nothing else it's an essentially free trip, just wondering how the earlier one went. Thanks.

[singftw]

Can someone please explain how they subsidize up to $300 of our trip to an Open House? Do we present receipts at the Open House? Is it something that automatically happens when we sign up and put in our flight info?

[lhanvt13]

Okay so I know this really isn't the appropriate thread for debate but I'm going to comment anyway, while pretending that USNWR's rankings actually matter much: most students try and secure employment before March of their 3L year. If W&L's reputation has really taken a hit, and employers aren't going to Lexington anymore, there really isn't much time for that to improve.

I think I'd have to see employment data before caring about the 17 drop in rankings. I mean, they went from 34 to 26 from 2010 to 2013, despite % employed only getting lower between those years, so I have no idea if the drop of rankings even correlates to that figure or if it's based on something else, like their 3L program, or if it's just USN's way of compensating for the perhaps unjustified rise in rankings W&L enjoyed these past couple of years.

Either way, I'm trying not to let it affect my decision to attend W&L or not. If the USN rankings show anything it's that a few years can make a big difference, and 2017 is a few years away.

By the way, is there anyone here who went to the Feb. ASW? What sort of turnout was there? I'm planning on going to the one at the end of march, since if nothing else it's an essentially free trip, just wondering how the earlier one went. Thanks.

Well the employment numbers for this year's usnwr is for the class of 2012 not 2013. So wait until April numbers come out.

[lhanvt13]

Can someone please explain how they subsidize up to $300 of our trip to an Open House? Do we present receipts at the Open House? Is it something that automatically happens when we sign up and put in our flight info?

I think you email admissions? There was a form I submitted I think?

[kaze950]

Can someone please explain how they subsidize up to $300 of our trip to an Open House? Do we present receipts at the Open House? Is it something that automatically happens when we sign up and put in our flight info?

http://law.wlu.edu/admissions/page.asp?pageid=847

There's a form you have to send in, along with the relevant receipts.

[singftw]

http://law.wlu.edu/admissions/page.asp?pageid=847

There's a form you have to send in, along with the relevant receipts.

Oh, thanks. I'm not sure how I missed that.

[vtothesick]

Hey guys!

I just wanted to mention what I found out about the rankings drop. If you look at the methodology http://www.usnews.com/education/best-gr ... s-rankings - the ranking is based on the 2012 employment statistics. That was a terrible year for W&L based on their website statistics, but I have it on a somewhat solid authority that the 2013 figures are significantly better and that should bump them up next year. The school knew it was a problem because they made a big hire - http://news.blogs.wlu.edu/2014/02/14/cl ... at-wl-law/ - and are throwing a LOT of resources at it.

I think this is a one year outlier that is on an upward trend given the strong alumni network, the increasing strength of the economy, and the fact that they have a lot of resources and effort going into career services before 0Ls will need it. In some ways, this could make W&L a "bargain" because it is almost definitely going to increase in ranking from where it is now but the drop would be a good basis for negotiating more $$

Food for thought....

[BankruptMe]

Stats are out.

http://law.wlu.edu/admissions/nalp/ABAE ... ry2014.pdf

Coming from W&L I will exclude 2-10 employee firms, since it is super expensive to go to W&L

82/143 = 57% employed in long term jobs.

If we subtract the 2-10 firms (18)...44.7% employed in long-term jobs

Those waiting on this data to make decisions, here it is.

[lhanvt13]

Stats are out.

http://law.wlu.edu/admissions/nalp/ABAE ... ry2014.pdf

Coming from W&L I will exclude 2-10 employee firms, since it is super expensive to go to W&L

82/143 = 57% employed in long term jobs.

If we subtract the 2-10 firms (18)...44.7% employed in long-term jobs

Those waiting on this data to make decisions, here it is.

Thanks!

Biglaw: 16.0%; Fed Clerk: 3.4%

[singftw]

Has anyone attempted to renegotiate scholarships since the rankings came out?