American University- WCL c/o 2017 Applicants Forum

[cronous]

Anyone think the news rankings will affect scholarship $??

Going by what they have done in previous years, they will probably reduce the amount of each scholarship but provide it to a greater number of folks. I am not sure how effective to lure, a small one time $10,000 scholarship is when the COA is $200K to $250K for all three years.

[vthokies88]

I agree with much of what you said, but your statement that AU is "probably one of the worst law schools in the country" is inaccurate. We have fantastic professors and many excellent academic programs.

The statement that AU is "probably one of the worst law schools in the country" is quite accurate in the context of outcomes for most students (which is probably what the overwhelming majority of students are concerned about). FWIW I was a student at American for a year before (thankfully) transferring to another school. I can attest to the fact that most professors are well credentialed and the ones that I had were relatively good. However, the quality of the professors/academic program does not appear to significantly affect student outcomes.

AU's problems are frankly too many to list: a) the size of the college (as you have noted) is way too big (just under 500 each year) leading to intense competition for the jobs that are available (no wonder the 1st year employment numbers on LST are so bad), b) its tuition is sky high (50K), c) it is in a locale with one the highest COL in the country, d) it is a mediocre schools right smack in the middle of one of the most saturated and competitive legal markets in the country where students from all the big name schools from across the country come to play, e) it is stingy with scholarships, f) it has an absentee dean (Claudio Grossman) that seems mostly concerned with doing human rights seminars on the other side of the planet than actually running the law school (seriously what does this guy do for his salary?), there are many more....

The accurate statement is that AU is one of the worst-managed law schools and has begun accepting students who I wouldn't hire to defend me on a DUI much less on a large corporate transaction. The single thing that plagues our school is the size of our student body. If we reduced our school size to GMU, you think we would be ranked #72? Absolutely not.... And a lot of other schools are located in the same expensive area (e.g., GW).

They will never reduce the class size by any significant measure. AU's law school has to many monetary obligations to be able to survive bringing in fewer warm bodies. Heck they are building a brand new law school. The federal loan money has to come from some place.

I agree with you that AU will never reduce its class size and that it has a number of problems. The cost is exorbitant, and that should be a deterrent to anyone who is unwilling to work part time and pay off some of the debt. So if you are arguing that there are a significant amount of deterrents to going to AU, I agree 100%.

But the hard-working students will still receive a high-quality legal education. I currently work full-time in a corporate office of general counsel. My boss went to a T-15 law school and worked at a big law firm, and I keep up with him every step of the way on a wide variety of issues--I have never felt that AU's academics have ever hurt me. My only point is that the professors and the academics aren't to blame - the best students there will continue to receive a high-quality legal education. The problem is solely administrative (cost, size of the student body, etc.), and it's unfortunate that this will continue to pull students down. For anyone but the top 20% or so, this school is a total scam.

[vthokies88]

I agree with much of what you said, but your statement that AU is "probably one of the worst law schools in the country" is inaccurate. We have fantastic professors and many excellent academic programs.

The statement that AU is "probably one of the worst law schools in the country" is quite accurate in the context of outcomes for most students (which is probably what the overwhelming majority of students are concerned about). FWIW I was a student at American for a year before (thankfully) transferring to another school. I can attest to the fact that most professors are well credentialed and the ones that I had were relatively good. However, the quality of the professors/academic program does not appear to significantly affect student outcomes.

AU's problems are frankly too many to list: a) the size of the college (as you have noted) is way too big (just under 500 each year) leading to intense competition for the jobs that are available (no wonder the 1st year employment numbers on LST are so bad), b) its tuition is sky high (50K), c) it is in a locale with one the highest COL in the country, d) it is a mediocre schools right smack in the middle of one of the most saturated and competitive legal markets in the country where students from all the big name schools from across the country come to play, e) it is stingy with scholarships, f) it has an absentee dean (Claudio Grossman) that seems mostly concerned with doing human rights seminars on the other side of the planet than actually running the law school (seriously what does this guy do for his salary?), there are many more....

The accurate statement is that AU is one of the worst-managed law schools and has begun accepting students who I wouldn't hire to defend me on a DUI much less on a large corporate transaction. The single thing that plagues our school is the size of our student body. If we reduced our school size to GMU, you think we would be ranked #72? Absolutely not.... And a lot of other schools are located in the same expensive area (e.g., GW).

They will never reduce the class size by any significant measure. AU's law school has to many monetary obligations to be able to survive bringing in fewer warm bodies. Heck they are building a brand new law school. The federal loan money has to come from some place.

I agree with you that AU will never reduce its class size and that it has a number of problems. The cost is exorbitant, and that should be a deterrent to anyone who is unwilling to work part time and pay off some of the debt. So if you are arguing that there are a significant amount of deterrents to going to AU, I agree 100%.

But the hard-working students will still receive a high-quality legal education. I currently work full-time in a corporate office of general counsel. My boss went to a T-15 law school and worked at a big law firm, and I keep up with him every step of the way on a wide variety of issues--I have never felt that AU's academics have ever hurt me. My only point is that the professors and the academics aren't to blame - the best students there will continue to receive a high-quality legal education. The problem is solely administrative (cost, size of the student body, etc.), and it's unfortunate that this will continue to pull students down. For anyone but the top 20% or so, this school is a total scam.

And for all of you considering AU - being top 10-20% or being on Law Review is not easy to do (roughly 10% of each class is invited to join Law Review). There are a lot of extremely intelligent people in my classes who are not top 10% or are not on Law Review. Don't confuse poor admissions and qualifications of students with difficulty of academics. The material you learn is no different from what students at GW or GTown learn. And to state the obvious, the VAST VAST VAST VAST majority will be in the bottom 80%...choose wisely.

[Nucky]

This place has a 38% employment rating and and even HIGHER underemployment rating at 40%.

Shut this place down. It isn't as if it serves a need in a market overrun by T14, GWU, GMU, W&M, etc. students.

This place is a complete and total scam which has no business in the top 100. This drop couldn't have happened to a "better" group of thieves.

[vthokies88]

This place has a 38% employment rating and and even HIGHER underemployment rating at 40%.

Shut this place down. It isn't as if it serves a need in a market overrun by T14, GWU, GMU, W&M, etc. students.

This place is a complete and total scam which has no business in the top 100. This drop couldn't have happened to a "better" group of thieves.

At least get your facts right...it's 40% LOL. And dude...you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. More AU students get jobs that GMU and W&M...the problem is that we have 2x as many students. And again...GW's employment rate is actually more like 60%...they employ a LOT of their own grads. And only like 25%ish get BigLaw compared with 10% of AU grads. The numbers aren't that different to warrant a difference of 52 spots. The problem is our admissions.

[Nucky]

This place has a 38% employment rating and and even HIGHER underemployment rating at 40%.

Shut this place down. It isn't as if it serves a need in a market overrun by T14, GWU, GMU, W&M, etc. students.

This place is a complete and total scam which has no business in the top 100. This drop couldn't have happened to a "better" group of thieves.

At least get your facts right...it's 40% LOL. And dude...you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. More AU students get jobs that GMU and W&M...the problem is that we have 2x as many students. And again...GW's employment rate is actually more like 60%...they employ a LOT of their own grads. And only like 25%ish get BigLaw compared with 10% of AU grads. The numbers aren't that different to warrant a difference of 52 spots. The problem is our admissions.

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=american

It's actually 38.9%. So get your facts right... Regardless, asking a student to take out $250k for a 38.9% chance of becoming ANY kind of attorney, much less one able to service that kind of debt, is borderline criminal.

I sympathize with the students, though they asked for it by gambling or not doing proper research. But I certainly don't sympathize with the school itself.

[NoDayButToday]

.

[vthokies88]

This place has a 38% employment rating and and even HIGHER underemployment rating at 40%.

Shut this place down. It isn't as if it serves a need in a market overrun by T14, GWU, GMU, W&M, etc. students.

This place is a complete and total scam which has no business in the top 100. This drop couldn't have happened to a "better" group of thieves.

At least get your facts right...it's 40% LOL. And dude...you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. More AU students get jobs that GMU and W&M...the problem is that we have 2x as many students. And again...GW's employment rate is actually more like 60%...they employ a LOT of their own grads. And only like 25%ish get BigLaw compared with 10% of AU grads. The numbers aren't that different to warrant a difference of 52 spots. The problem is our admissions.

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=american

It's actually 38.9%. So get your facts right... Regardless, asking a student to take out $250k for a 38.9% chance of becoming ANY kind of attorney, much less one able to service that kind of debt, is borderline criminal.

I sympathize with the students, though they asked for it by gambling or not doing proper research. But I certainly don't sympathize with the school itself.

sigh...go look at USNWR - it's 40.2% (AT GRADUATION - I'm sure ABA's upcoming employment statistics will show that it is much higher 9 months after graduation). http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... gton-03029

1. Many students did their research...the problem is that their research was based on statistics from when AU was ranked #45.
2. No one sympathizes with the with the school...as I said above, the administration's promotion of this school is nothing short of fraud. They don't understand the difference between WANTING a non-bar passage required job and BEING STUCK WITH a non-bar passage required job.

[Nucky]

This place has a 38% employment rating and and even HIGHER underemployment rating at 40%.

Shut this place down. It isn't as if it serves a need in a market overrun by T14, GWU, GMU, W&M, etc. students.

This place is a complete and total scam which has no business in the top 100. This drop couldn't have happened to a "better" group of thieves.

At least get your facts right...it's 40% LOL. And dude...you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. More AU students get jobs that GMU and W&M...the problem is that we have 2x as many students. And again...GW's employment rate is actually more like 60%...they employ a LOT of their own grads. And only like 25%ish get BigLaw compared with 10% of AU grads. The numbers aren't that different to warrant a difference of 52 spots. The problem is our admissions.

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=american

It's actually 38.9%. So get your facts right... Regardless, asking a student to take out $250k for a 38.9% chance of becoming ANY kind of attorney, much less one able to service that kind of debt, is borderline criminal.

I sympathize with the students, though they asked for it by gambling or not doing proper research. But I certainly don't sympathize with the school itself.

Ehhh this part I take issue with. The current 3L class would have entered when American was ranked what? High 40s? It went 45, 48, 50, 49 -- that's a pretty consistent streak. It was obviously not T14 or T20, but it still a solid option. Then the market broke and apps dropped and AU WCL admissions responded in the opposite way of every other T50 school in the country that wanted to keep competing. As others have pointed out, they didn't drop their class size (wasn't last year huge?) and they've been YPing the heck out of competitive applicants. I can personally attest, above both 75ths--and I visited/toured/met with adcomm people, too. Even the current 1Ls entering with a 56 ranking. That's not so different from high 40s, low 50s, and it's enough of a shift that you would think a school would be trying to turn it around.

I sympathize with the students, and I don't think they asked for it.

I don't know what their employment stats were a few years ago, but okay. You're right, that wording was probably a bit harsh.

[pedestrian]

At least get your facts right...it's 40% LOL. And dude...you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. More AU students get jobs that GMU and W&M...the problem is that we have 2x as many students.

Yep, that's the problem. So you should get 2x as many jobs to be on the same level.

And again...GW's employment rate is actually more like 60%...they employ a LOT of their own grads.

It is criminally dishonest of GW to employ so many of its own grads, but those students at least have a temporary paycheck. That makes them marginally better off than unemployed AU students. The fact that AU doesn't even try to fudge the numbers and STILL lures in so many victims is more of a "shame on you" than a "shame on them"

And only like 25%ish get BigLaw compared with 10% of AU grads. The numbers aren't that different to warrant a difference of 52 spots.

That is a very significant difference. Neither provides great odds, but it puts AU in a lower tier. It warrants eleventy zorble lower spots because % in big law is not a factor in US News rankings.

The problem is our admissions.

That is not logically inconsistent with any of the other claims being made.

[vthokies88]

At least get your facts right...it's 40% LOL. And dude...you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. More AU students get jobs that GMU and W&M...the problem is that we have 2x as many students.

Yep, that's the problem. So you should get 2x as many jobs to be on the same level.

And again...GW's employment rate is actually more like 60%...they employ a LOT of their own grads.

It is criminally dishonest of GW to employ so many of its own grads, but those students at least have a temporary paycheck. That makes them marginally better off than unemployed AU students. The fact that AU doesn't even try to fudge the numbers and STILL lures in so many victims is more of a "shame on you" than a "shame on them"

And only like 25%ish get BigLaw compared with 10% of AU grads. The numbers aren't that different to warrant a difference of 52 spots.

That is a very significant difference. Neither provides great odds, but it puts AU in a lower tier. It warrants eleventy zorble lower spots because % in big law is not a factor in US News rankings.

The problem is our admissions.

That is not logically inconsistent with any of the other claims being made.

Out of curiosity, where do you go to law school? And no, it's not a "shame on you thing" for current students. When I applied to American, we were ranked #45. I applied with statistics that would EASILY put me in the top 80-90% of current applicants. I (along with 49 other students) am on the 45th or so ranked law review in the country and the 18th most cited law review in case law. Not every student at AU is a naive schmuck who can't analyze employment numbers.

[pedestrian]

Out of curiosity, where do you go to law school? And no, it's not a "shame on you thing" for current students. When I applied to American, we were ranked #45. I applied with statistics that would EASILY put me in the top 80-90% of current applicants. I (along with 49 other students) am on the 45th or so ranked law review in the country and the 18th most cited law review in case law. Not every student at AU is a naive schmuck who can't analyze employment numbers.

No, and I apologize that my comments came across that way. I know that there many innocent victims. I hope that you would not STILL argue that AU is a perfectly fine school with decent employment opportunities that deserves a higher ranking than it has. I was responding to all of the logical fallacies being used to prop up AU.

[Fretter31]

Admissions is the problem. Unfortunately, AU has to finance a new law school building and pay large salary to support the living costs of the multi-layered staff that is WCL. As long as there is an inherent conflict between raising standards/lowering class sizes and maintaining profitability, WCL seems stuck in rapid decline.

[Fretter31]

On a final note, I was always creeped out (?) by the cult of personality the school seems to put around Dean Grossman. Claudio Grossman is held as this angel with an aura, and I feel like he is part of the problem. No doubt he has does good work abroad, but I always found it odd that he was worshiped like a God by so many when in reality he was always gone from the law school and seemed to lack any sort of connection with domestic law.

[vthokies88]

Out of curiosity, where do you go to law school? And no, it's not a "shame on you thing" for current students. When I applied to American, we were ranked #45. I applied with statistics that would EASILY put me in the top 80-90% of current applicants. I (along with 49 other students) am on the 45th or so ranked law review in the country and the 18th most cited law review in case law. Not every student at AU is a naive schmuck who can't analyze employment numbers.

No, and I apologize that my comments came across that way. I know that there many innocent victims. I hope that you would not STILL argue that AU is a perfectly fine school with decent employment opportunities that deserves a higher ranking than it has. I was responding to all of the logical fallacies being used to prop up AU.

Oh absolutely not--AU has a long way to go now. If it doesn't fix itself fast, I predict its rank will drop 10 spots next year. Honestly, the only reasons I didn't transfer were because of my rank and law review and the drop last year wasn't that bad #56. If I were a 1L today, I'd be looking for the first ticket out of here... And like I said in an earlier post...don't trust what the admissions BS...it's all a financial scam...

On the positive side, AU fired almost its entire career services staff last year...hopefully that will help...

[vthokies88]

On a final note, I was always creeped out (?) by the cult of personality the school seems to put around Dean Grossman. Claudio Grossman is held as this angel with an aura, and I feel like he is part of the problem. No doubt he has does good work abroad, but I always found it odd that he was worshiped like a God by so many when in reality he was always gone from the law school and seemed to lack any sort of connection with domestic law.

Students are brainwashed into thinking that they can stop torture and international injustice, so these bleeding hearts follow him around in a trance...good luck paying even the smallest mortgage with that (much less $200K in student loans)

[cronous]

On the positive side, AU fired almost its entire career services staff last year...hopefully that will help...

They did it again? I knew they fired their career services 2 years ago.

[cronous]

On a final note, I was always creeped out (?) by the cult of personality the school seems to put around Dean Grossman. Claudio Grossman is held as this angel with an aura, and I feel like he is part of the problem. No doubt he has does good work abroad, but I always found it odd that he was worshiped like a God by so many when in reality he was always gone from the law school and seemed to lack any sort of connection with domestic law.

Why do they keep him around? Is it for the international/human rights law image they want to keep up? Frankly International/human rights law at American is a joke. American has nowhere near that kind of prestige to allow its students to get into those areas of law.

[vthokies88]

On the positive side, AU fired almost its entire career services staff last year...hopefully that will help...

They did it again? I knew they fired their career services 2 years ago.

It was over last summer - almost everyone in OCPD is totally different now except the Assistant Dean who, IMO, is pretty good. I didn't know that they did that 2 years ago too... Because I'm part-time, I'm going through fall recruitment this year instead of last year...unfortunately, i'll be part of the group that tests the real impact of this new ranking on students who had nothing to do with it...

[vthokies88]

On a final note, I was always creeped out (?) by the cult of personality the school seems to put around Dean Grossman. Claudio Grossman is held as this angel with an aura, and I feel like he is part of the problem. No doubt he has does good work abroad, but I always found it odd that he was worshiped like a God by so many when in reality he was always gone from the law school and seemed to lack any sort of connection with domestic law.

Why do they keep him around? Is it for the international/human rights law image they want to keep up? Frankly International/human rights law at American is a joke. American has nowhere near that kind of prestige to allow its students to get into those areas of law.

That's all that I can figure...like you said, he's never at the law school. I think a large part of why we're ranked so highly in int'l law is because we have campuses around the world, International Law Review is ranked pretty highly for international journals, we do a lot of stuff with the UN, and AU's international affairs graduate program is top-notch. Maybe if AU cut down on that crap and focused on actual international law (trade, export controls, etc.), we'd be doing better. The fact is, his refusal to alter the admissions process in his recent email to the WCL community shows that he has no business running a law school.

[cronous]

On the positive side, AU fired almost its entire career services staff last year...hopefully that will help...

They did it again? I knew they fired their career services 2 years ago.

It was over last summer - almost everyone in OCPD is totally different now except the Assistant Dean who, IMO, is pretty good. I didn't know that they did that 2 years ago too... Because I'm part-time, I'm going through fall recruitment this year instead of last year...unfortunately, i'll be part of the group that tests the real impact of this new ranking on students who had nothing to do with it...

They fired everyone at OCPD in the summer of 2011 as well and hired supposedly better people. The 2012 employment statistics (which would have come out early in 2013) were apparently bad so I guess it was time for another culling. I do not know, firing your career services office every two years does not seem like a good idea if you want to allow OCPD to develop leads to assist students though I suspect they need a scapegoat for poor student outcomes. So its 2011 and 2013. Guess by 2015 they will fire OCPD because AU has entered TTTdom.

http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot. ... ov_19.html

[vthokies88]

On the positive side, AU fired almost its entire career services staff last year...hopefully that will help...

They did it again? I knew they fired their career services 2 years ago.

It was over last summer - almost everyone in OCPD is totally different now except the Assistant Dean who, IMO, is pretty good. I didn't know that they did that 2 years ago too... Because I'm part-time, I'm going through fall recruitment this year instead of last year...unfortunately, i'll be part of the group that tests the real impact of this new ranking on students who had nothing to do with it...

They fired everyone at OCPD in the summer of 2011 as well and hired supposedly better people. The 2012 employment statistics (which would have come out early in 2013) were apparently bad so I guess it was time for another culling. I do not know, firing your career services office every two years does not seem like a good idea if you want to allow OCPD to develop leads to assist students though I suspect they need a scapegoat for poor student outcomes. So its 2011 and 2013. Guess by 2015 they will fire OCPD because they AU has entered TTTdom.

http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot. ... ov_19.html

Interesting...I have no idea what the deal is. This year seems to be much better recruitment wise. I don't know about AU at large, but junior staff members on law review rocked OCI this year (I want to say like 35 out of the 45ish full-time students got summer associateship offers at a variety of big firms). Every year we seem to get the same firms to hire 1-4 students...you just have to make sure you're in that top number or have connections to get jobs outside of OCI.

[auwcl123]

Sooo... for those of us counting its been 56 days since the initial deadline for the PIPS Scholarship applications. Has anyone heard back? I know they give out a maximum of 10 and usually around 200 apply/qualify so chances of getting it are slim... but I can't stop wondering.

[Fretter31]

...

[Fretter31]

On a final note, I was always creeped out (?) by the cult of personality the school seems to put around Dean Grossman. Claudio Grossman is held as this angel with an aura, and I feel like he is part of the problem. No doubt he has does good work abroad, but I always found it odd that he was worshiped like a God by so many when in reality he was always gone from the law school and seemed to lack any sort of connection with domestic law.

Why do they keep him around? Is it for the international/human rights law image they want to keep up? Frankly International/human rights law at American is a joke. American has nowhere near that kind of prestige to allow its students to get into those areas of law.

That's all that I can figure...like you said, he's never at the law school. I think a large part of why we're ranked so highly in int'l law is because we have campuses around the world, International Law Review is ranked pretty highly for international journals, we do a lot of stuff with the UN, and AU's international affairs graduate program is top-notch. Maybe if AU cut down on that crap and focused on actual international law (trade, export controls, etc.), we'd be doing better. The fact is, his refusal to alter the admissions process in his recent email to the WCL community shows that he has no business running a law school.

Maybe someone with knowledge can verify this, but is it true that there is a disconnect between the faculty and the Admissions Office? From what I understand, the faculty have been trying to get the administration to reduce class sizes for years, but have not been successful in convincing the Dean and Admissions to do this. My understanding is that this is due to the fact that, unlike most law schools, the faculty at WCL have little to no say as to what the class size and admissions standards are. In other words, Admissions and the faculty are completely independent of each other and the left hand has no say in what the right hand does. Anyone comment on this?