Duke University School of Law C/O 2019 Applicants Forum

doublehoohopeful · Post by **doublehoohopeful** » Tue Aug 18, 2015 3:49 pm

Generally wrote:
earthabides wrote:
whacka wrote:
The reason that they "naturally want to be" that way is that we as a society still see law as a man's field. Aspiring towards a 50/50 class through affirmative action (which is what's being advocated by some users here even though they haven't made it explicit) is one effective way of changing how our culture looks at certain professions, so future generations of women won't see a female lawyer as an anomaly from an early age. In a generation, they may not even need to worry about gender percentages, since women may be just as likely as men to want to pursue a career in law. Right now, that's unfortunately not the case, and it is almost certainly a result of the gender roles that have been proscribed by society.
There is not nearly as much evidence for this as you seem to think there is. In the most recent cycle there are more women than men applying anyway. If there is a problem maintaining 50/50 classes in the T14 it is that there are more male high-scorers, not that women are discouraged from applying.
This is true - also blame Berkeley for taking all the women high scorers

BERKELEY TO 50/50!

earthabides · Post by **earthabides** » Tue Aug 18, 2015 3:51 pm

Hildegard15 wrote:
whacka wrote:
earthabides wrote:
whacka wrote:
The reason that they "naturally want to be" that way is that we as a society still see law as a man's field. Aspiring towards a 50/50 class through affirmative action (which is what's being advocated by some users here even though they haven't made it explicit) is one effective way of changing how our culture looks at certain professions, so future generations of women won't see a female lawyer as an anomaly from an early age. In a generation, they may not even need to worry about gender percentages, since women may be just as likely as men to want to pursue a career in law. Right now, that's unfortunately not the case, and it is almost certainly a result of the gender roles that have been proscribed by society.
There is not nearly as much evidence for this as you seem to think there is. In the most recent cycle there are more women than men applying anyway. If there is a problem maintaining 50/50 classes in the T14 it is that there are more male high-scorers, not that women are discouraged from applying.
If that's the case, then my entire point is moot and you all can disregard it.
Show me evidence that more women applied to law school than men. I found an article from 2013 that said the very opposite. I haven't found a single article that says more women than men applied to law school recently, but it's possible that I just couldn't find it. Though I have a feeling that this might just be a case of wishful thinking/male tears.

http://www.lsac.org/lsacresources/data/ ... applicants

Recent differences in the other direction don't seem very large either. No male tears here. Makes sense when you consider that more females pursue undergraduate study than men.

edit: sept 2015 start cycle data http://spiveyconsulting.com/blog/2014-2 ... -june-5th/

doublehoohopeful · Post by **doublehoohopeful** » Tue Aug 18, 2015 3:52 pm

Hildegard15 wrote:Show me evidence that more women applied to law school than men. I found an article from 2013 that said the very opposite. I haven't found a single article that says more women than men applied to law school recently, but it's possible that I just couldn't find it. Though I have a feeling that this might just be a case of wishful thinking/male tears.

Here's the information for admitted applicants. Roughly 21k women and 22k men for 2014, 22k women and 23.5k men for 2013.

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Hildegard15 · Post by **Hildegard15** » Tue Aug 18, 2015 4:05 pm

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cdotson2 · Post by **cdotson2** » Tue Aug 18, 2015 4:07 pm

they probably admitted 50/50 and then people who matriculated changed the ratio

slippin_jimmy · Post by **slippin_jimmy** » Tue Aug 18, 2015 4:07 pm

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barley · Post by **barley** » Tue Aug 18, 2015 4:08 pm

whacka wrote:
The reason that they "naturally want to be" that way is that we as a society still see law as a man's field. Aspiring towards a 50/50 class through affirmative action (which is what's being advocated by some users here even though they haven't made it explicit) is one effective way of changing how our culture looks at certain professions, so future generations of women won't see a female lawyer as an anomaly from an early age. In a generation, they may not even need to worry about gender percentages, since women may be just as likely as men to want to pursue a career in law. Right now, that's unfortunately not the case, and it is almost certainly a result of the gender roles that have been proscribed by society.

So much this. I know some middle-aged, female partners at big firms who occasionally still have others assume that their younger male paralegals/assistants/etc. are their bosses. As a (high-scoring, since apparently that matters?) female, that knowledge is discourages me about the profession - not enough to deter me from pursuing it altogether (especially since PI, which I want to do, is more female-friendly), but still. Enough data on inequality in the profession, not to mention anecdotes about deeply embedded sexism, could really stop some perfectly capable and otherwise interested women from pursuing careers in law. And one of the best ways to combat that is giving more women the opportunity to earn degrees from top institutions.

Generally · Post by **Generally** » Tue Aug 18, 2015 4:08 pm

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slippin_jimmy · Post by **slippin_jimmy** » Tue Aug 18, 2015 4:08 pm

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Generally · Post by **Generally** » Tue Aug 18, 2015 4:09 pm

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Generally · Post by **Generally** » Tue Aug 18, 2015 4:10 pm

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slippin_jimmy · Post by **slippin_jimmy** » Tue Aug 18, 2015 4:11 pm

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whacka · Post by **whacka** » Tue Aug 18, 2015 4:12 pm

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slippin_jimmy · Post by **slippin_jimmy** » Tue Aug 18, 2015 4:13 pm

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urbanist11 · Post by **urbanist11** » Tue Aug 18, 2015 4:13 pm

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earthabides · Post by **earthabides** » Tue Aug 18, 2015 4:13 pm

Hildegard15 wrote:
doublehoohopeful wrote:
Hildegard15 wrote:Show me evidence that more women applied to law school than men. I found an article from 2013 that said the very opposite. I haven't found a single article that says more women than men applied to law school recently, but it's possible that I just couldn't find it. Though I have a feeling that this might just be a case of wishful thinking/male tears.
Here's the information for admitted applicants. Roughly 21k women and 22k men for 2014, 22k women and 23.5k men for 2013.

scooped by earthabides
These links all seem to be saying different things. My point is, I do not believe that there is an excuse for there to be 60/40 male to female ratio. I would like to see stats regarding percentage of women applying across the T14. I wonder if the numbers would change at all? Thestuff about "guys score higher" is stupid. I believe they could keep the percentages closer to 50/50 (maybe not EXACTLY but close) without dipping the medians.

http://www.lsac.org/docs/default-source ... f?sfvrsn=4

Look at page 18, there is a higher proportion of males in the 170+ range.

I'm not going to say that a 60/40 is justified or not justified, but based on the data I've provided and the fact that maybe males and females have preferences for different schools / locations (maybe) that there isn't some plot to skew the T14 gender ratio towards men.

edit: broken link

Generally · Post by **Generally** » Tue Aug 18, 2015 4:14 pm

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barley · Post by **barley** » Tue Aug 18, 2015 4:15 pm

Generally wrote:
slippin_jimmy wrote:
Hildegard15 wrote:
doublehoohopeful wrote:
Hildegard15 wrote:Show me evidence that more women applied to law school than men. I found an article from 2013 that said the very opposite. I haven't found a single article that says more women than men applied to law school recently, but it's possible that I just couldn't find it. Though I have a feeling that this might just be a case of wishful thinking/male tears.
Here's the information for admitted applicants. Roughly 21k women and 22k men for 2014, 22k women and 23.5k men for 2013.

scooped by earthabides
These links all seem to be saying different things. My point is, I do not believe that there is an excuse for there to be 60/40 male to female ratio. I would like to see stats regarding percentage of women applying across the T14. I wonder if the numbers would change at all? Thestuff about "guys score higher" is stupid. I believe they could keep the percentages closer to 50/50 (maybe not EXACTLY but close) without dipping the medians.
Just dropping back in to say that the idea of "natural" "gender" "preferences" toward professions is so lolzy. So so lolzy. But yes. Until being a WHITE female is no longer a cause to be part of the 'diversity' luncheon in BigLaw, I think the profession, including the law schools that develop and prepare professionals, still need to keep a keen eye on gender.
I think it lolzy to dismiss the idea there could actually be differences between genders in preferences.

I don't think anyone is disputing that there are differences between genders in preferences - some of us just think that the differences are based on societal expectations rather than, I dunno, biology. We're just saying that having a Y chromosome doesn't make you better suited to being a lawyer (not saying that that's what you're saying, but some of your comments sort of hint at that

)

urbanist11 · Post by **urbanist11** » Tue Aug 18, 2015 4:15 pm

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urbanist11 · Post by **urbanist11** » Tue Aug 18, 2015 4:16 pm

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slippin_jimmy · Post by **slippin_jimmy** » Tue Aug 18, 2015 4:16 pm

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Generally · Post by **Generally** » Tue Aug 18, 2015 4:17 pm

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urbanist11 · Post by **urbanist11** » Tue Aug 18, 2015 4:18 pm

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doublehoohopeful · Post by **doublehoohopeful** » Tue Aug 18, 2015 4:18 pm

Generally wrote: More women apply than men right now, but more woman go to TTTs. Score better and it will all even out . Trust me, t14s would love more women.

All of the numbers I've seen indicate that the overall applicant pool is pretty evenly split between women and men. Something is happening at the T14 schools where that isn't being represented; I suspect it is a score issue. We've seen it with African Americans, I think it is fully within the realm of possibility that similar societal constraints facing minorities also hinder women in scoring highly.

cdotson2 · Post by **cdotson2** » Tue Aug 18, 2015 4:18 pm

slippin_jimmy wrote: Yes, differences between genders in preferences that can be influenced by social factors e.g. being the only woman in an engineering program and feeling as if you have no peers, feeling pressure from society to both be a caretaker to children and pursue your profession, doubt from professors, lack of role models, etc.

I don't disagree that there may be preferences and huge splits in who goes into what occupation, see the number of women who are teachers or nurses, but that's also generations of reinforcement that that is an appropriate gender role.

yes gender roles are enforced by society, but are they necessarily wrong? every species on the planet has gender roles. They might be a helpful evolutionary device. like specialization in a field.