IOWA 2012 Forum

[typ3]

Go by the chart on the 1st page for when you will hear back. Generally there is a wave at the end of November / early December. The admissions committee doesn't meet everyday it's normally every two/three weeks with a meeting in between with a scholarship committee. Given last years numbers you will get a full ride with a top 1/3rd stipulation.

[shredderrrrrr]

Go by the chart on the 1st page for when you will hear back. Generally there is a wave at the end of November / early December. The admissions committee doesn't meet everyday it's normally every two/three weeks with a meeting in between with a scholarship committee. Given last years numbers you will get a full ride with a top 1/3rd stipulation.

Thanks for the response! The only thing the chart didn't answer for me was when people sent in their applications. I was simply wondering if someone who submitted there app in early Sept. would be in the same first wave of responses as someone who submitted it in late Oct. or later.

Just when the LSAT waiting pain has subsided...

[DportIA]

I submitted my application in September and it is currently "In Review."

I am a resident, URM, 162 3.55. I know that I am almost for sure admitted with the URM designation, residency, and numbers. From anyone's past experience here, what chance do I have for at least a partial scholarship based on ethnicity?

I am an Iowan and would like to come back to my home state to learn/ practice.

[chrisbru]

I submitted my application in September and it is currently "In Review."

I am a resident, URM, 162 3.55. I know that I am almost for sure admitted with the URM designation, residency, and numbers. From anyone's past experience here, what chance do I have for at least a partial scholarship based on ethnicity?

I am an Iowan and would like to come back to my home state to learn/ practice.

You're above both medians AND are URM. I'm not sure exactly what the URM does at Iowa, but I'd expect a pretty good scholarship.

Hey all! Really helpful information!

I grew up in Iowa City until college and hope to come back for law school. It really is a great place. I currently live in a horrible college town and am envious of all the awesome places IC has to offer (ecspecially food places like Mesa, Shorts, Hamburg Inn, Pagliais, etc...).

What are your thoughts on a 166/3.8 non-URM applicant in regards to scholarships? And how long does it typically take to hear back once you submit (I submitted on Friday)?

I second Tyler's view on scholarship. You probably won't hear about scholarships until late Feb/early March however.

You'll be in the same "wave" as everyone who submitted pre-Nov 1st. All those are considered "extra early" submittals. You should hear back (with an admission, no doubt) by early December... But, again, you will get a letter saying you're being considered for a scholarship but probably won't hear what you get until late Feb.

[typ3]

If you go back to the numbers I ran for last years admissions a certain group of people will always get automatic scholarship offers when they apply and are accepted. However, their indexes were crazy high with 170+ lsat scores coupled with 3.8+ gpas. HTH

[Opie]

Anyone have Hovenkamp this Friday at 11:30? I may be sitting in.

I have the class. It's Antitrust, and it starts at 11. What did you want to know?

Just if it is indicative of the rest of the classes at Iowa (obviously 1L classes are going to vary somewhat from this). I'll probably be in the class Friday. If I can get there by 11 that is.

The professor all have their own style. Hovenkamp is big on telling you the back story of a case. I had him for torts and now antitrust. Sometimes you are not sure what you should be taking notes on, but I always learn something interesting. The class you sat in on, was a pretty typical law school class. Normally we don't cover as many cases as we did on Friday in antitrust, but with the exception of Matsumotto's con law, the pace of the class on Friday was what you should expect in a class.

Is he a good teacher? I'd love to take classes from him.

Pretty decent class overall. I'm a business major, so this class appeals to me. You probably noticed me in the back corner.

I am a little disappointed with the average student's lack of knowledge of commodity trading. I could have explained the call rule before UG.

[typ3]

Law school attracts students from all walks of life. I know there are certainly people in my classes that know random stuff about certain areas of the law I've never even contemplated before. Space law get at me.

[Opie]

Law school attracts students from all walks of life. I know there are certainly people in my classes that know random stuff about certain areas of the law I've never even contemplated before. Space law get at me.

It's true. Maybe it's because I'm almost 30 too. I just don't get the things people know nothing about. How you graduate high school economics without understanding commodities is crazy to me. Hovenkamp got everyone up to speed pretty rapidly though. He seems like a great teacher.

[chrisbru]

Law school attracts students from all walks of life. I know there are certainly people in my classes that know random stuff about certain areas of the law I've never even contemplated before. Space law get at me.

It's true. Maybe it's because I'm almost 30 too. I just don't get the things people know nothing about. How you graduate high school economics without understanding commodities is crazy to me. Hovenkamp got everyone up to speed pretty rapidly though. He seems like a great teacher.

We did NOTHING about commodities in high school econ.

[typ3]

Law school attracts students from all walks of life. I know there are certainly people in my classes that know random stuff about certain areas of the law I've never even contemplated before. Space law get at me.

It's true. Maybe it's because I'm almost 30 too. I just don't get the things people know nothing about. How you graduate high school economics without understanding commodities is crazy to me. Hovenkamp got everyone up to speed pretty rapidly though. He seems like a great teacher.

We did NOTHING about commodities in high school econ.

Commodities were more important if you took econ in high school during the cold war. O.o

[neeko]

Law school attracts students from all walks of life. I know there are certainly people in my classes that know random stuff about certain areas of the law I've never even contemplated before. Space law get at me.

It's true. Maybe it's because I'm almost 30 too. I just don't get the things people know nothing about. How you graduate high school economics without understanding commodities is crazy to me. Hovenkamp got everyone up to speed pretty rapidly though. He seems like a great teacher.

We did NOTHING about commodities in high school econ.

We did nothing about commodities in college econ, either. Weird complaint is weird.

[Opie]

Meh. Oh well. I guess different schools focus on different things. We did everything from demand curves, taxes, and personal finance to annuities, commodities, and how to determine the price of a bond.

[shredderrrrrr]

Not to change the topic to another school or be overly redundant, but under what circumstances would you guys consider going to Drake? I feel like the consensus on TLS is that schools like Drake shouldn't even be considered, but I can't help but notice that Drake has a higher standing than TTTT for those of us who live in Iowa. I know job prospects are probably going to look brighter graduating from Iowa, but is Drake really that bad?

[typ3]

From Drake your only options are to live in Iowa and you will likely make 40-60k at graduation. Not saying you will make significantly more if you stay in state and graduate from Iowa, yet you have better opportunities. At Iowa your degree is portable to markets outside the state, Minneapolis, Chicago, St. Louis, Kansas City, Omaha plus you can stay in state.

[shredderrrrrr]

Would you say an Iowa degree has a strong regional influence? Assuming you do well, is the Minneapolis market truly open to Iowa law grads? I've always been under the assumption that while it is possible, the Minneapolis market is largely reserved for MN grads.

And what about Des Moines? I would be content to stay in Iowa, but since Iowa City has virtually no home market, I would be interested in living in DM. I've heard before that while Iowa is typically seen as a better school, Drake places better in DM. Would you say the geographical proximity of Drake mitigates the regional strength of an Iowa degree?

And none of this is to question Iowa Law. I just have always tried to get a better grasp on how the two schools compete.

[zanzbar]

I got a fee waiver from Iowa and was thinking about applying. I have a 4.0x/160 right now but I am retaking in Dec should I apply now or wait until after I take Dec?

[typ3]

Would you say an Iowa degree has a strong regional influence? Assuming you do well, is the Minneapolis market truly open to Iowa law grads? I've always been under the assumption that while it is possible, the Minneapolis market is largely reserved for MN grads.

And what about Des Moines? I would be content to stay in Iowa, but since Iowa City has virtually no home market, I would be interested in living in DM. I've heard before that while Iowa is typically seen as a better school, Drake places better in DM. Would you say the geographical proximity of Drake mitigates the regional strength of an Iowa degree?

And none of this is to question Iowa Law. I just have always tried to get a better grasp on how the two schools compete.

UofM grads get the leg up on you in Minneapolis. Iowa grads are seen as peers with Wisconsin grads two groups that have a leg up over W&M, Hamline, and UST graduates. (Taken from some old thread on TLS from a hiring attorney at a Minneapolis bigfirm)

[chrisbru]

I got a fee waiver from Iowa and was thinking about applying. I have a 4.0x/160 right now but I am retaking in Dec should I apply now or wait until after I take Dec?

Apply now. You'll get in. Then submit your retake score for scholarship consideration.

Would you say an Iowa degree has a strong regional influence? Assuming you do well, is the Minneapolis market truly open to Iowa law grads? I've always been under the assumption that while it is possible, the Minneapolis market is largely reserved for MN grads.

And what about Des Moines? I would be content to stay in Iowa, but since Iowa City has virtually no home market, I would be interested in living in DM. I've heard before that while Iowa is typically seen as a better school, Drake places better in DM. Would you say the geographical proximity of Drake mitigates the regional strength of an Iowa degree?

And none of this is to question Iowa Law. I just have always tried to get a better grasp on how the two schools compete.

Iowa definitely does send people outside of Iowa. I think about 1/3 of Iowa law grads stay in Iowa. Most will return to their home market (it's easier to get a job in a market you have ties to), but some students will go to Chicago, Minneapolis, Kansas City, Omaha, Denver, St. Louis etc.

Chicago - There are a lot of firms. If you are in the top 5-10%, you have a chance here.
Minneapolis - Yes, U of M has the upper hand. But you're still more likely to get a job in Minneapolis than a person with your same class rank at any of the other Minneapolis Schools
Kansas City - KU places well here, but Iowa is a much better schools. If you have ties/good reasons to be in KC, you have a good chance.
Omaha - Same as above. Iowa >>> UNL and Creighton.
Denver/St. Louis - There are good schools in town that dominate their market. But, Iowa grads still go here if they have ties or good reasons to be in that area.

A lot of "where you will go" depends on what the economy is doing near graduation, and how well you place in your class.

As for Drake, remember that placement quantity does not equal quality. Yes, Drake places MORE graduates in Des Moines than the University of Iowa does historically. This is not because Des Moines prefers Drake grads, but because more Drake grads look in DSM because they do not have options elsewhere. An Iowa grad, in general, will make more money at a better firm than a Drake grad will.

[typ3]

I'll echo what chris just wrote but disagree with the Omaha market analysis. Iowa is viewed by firms as peer with Nebraska but above Creighton. Problem is that the local firms have more than enough graduates from Creighton / Neb / USD for SA positions and the bump for going to Nebraska really isn't large. Ties are important for Omaha if you are out of state and going there since almost all the attorneys at firms there are from UNL/Creighton/USD. Similar alumni problem that is seen with UD Sturm and CU in Denver.

The market is saturated with local grads. Going to Iowa isn't the same as going to a T-14 so your connections will matter despite the ranking being higher than the local school. I think as a general rule, law students care about rank of a school a lot more about attorneys.

Attorneys and firms are concerned with you making them money the minute you come in the door. Thus, your connections matter to get new clients and your class rank is important because it is interpreted (rightly or wrongly) that you are a harder working / more competent individual than your classmates ranked substantially lower than yourself.

Difference is Omaha isn't going through the insane population growth that Denver is with tons of imports from California / Texas.

[chrisbru]

I'll echo what chris just wrote but disagree with the Omaha market analysis. Iowa is viewed by firms as peer with Nebraska but above Creighton. Problem is that the local firms have more than enough graduates from Creighton / Neb / USD for SA positions and the bump for going to Nebraska really isn't large. Ties are important for Omaha if you are out of state and going there since almost all the attorneys at firms there are from UNL/Creighton/USD. Typical alumni problem that is seen with UD DU Sturm and CU in Denver to break into the market.

Difference is Omaha isn't going through the insane growth that Denver is with tons of imports from California / Texas.

Fixed for school name accuracy. Thanks for the Omaha insight.

[typ3]

I'll echo what chris just wrote but disagree with the Omaha market analysis. Iowa is viewed by firms as peer with Nebraska but above Creighton. Problem is that the local firms have more than enough graduates from Creighton / Neb / USD for SA positions and the bump for going to Nebraska really isn't large. Ties are important for Omaha if you are out of state and going there since almost all the attorneys at firms there are from UNL/Creighton/USD. Typical alumni problem that is seen with UD DU Sturm and CU in Denver to break into the market.

Difference is Omaha isn't going through the insane growth that Denver is with tons of imports from California / Texas.

Fixed for school name accuracy. Thanks for the Omaha insight.

I mean it is definitely possible to get there from Iowa.. the problem like a lot of markets is the local schools have a lock because there are so many graduates and attorneys tend to hire local graduates / alumni of their alma matter.

Minneapolis is different because the market has so many more big firms than Omaha. There are a ton of small firms in Omaha and the city definitely has a small town feel. If you want to get into a small boutique firm in Omaha I'm sure you would have no problem.

I do agree with you that quantity does not equate to quality.

This is the classic debate always brought up between DU and CU in Denver. Ultimately I don't know if there is a huge difference in the Denver market and in some ways DU has an employment advantage despite its lower rank and being a diploma mill. There is a big difference in Iowa and Drake however especially because so many graduates leave the state. Who the hell wants to leave Colorado?

Regardless of how you feel about employment, I will contend that Drake cannot match the academic, clinical, and research opportunities that Iowa does. I dare someone to prove me wrong.

[chrisbru]

This is the classic debate always brought up between DU and CU in Denver. Ultimately I don't know if there is a huge difference in the Denver market and in some ways DU has an employment advantage despite its lower rank and being a diploma mill. There is a big difference in Iowa and Drake however especially because so many graduates leave the state. Who the hell wants to leave Colorado?

Regardless of how you feel about employment, I will contend that Drake cannot match the academic, clinical, and research opportunities that Iowa does. I dare someone to prove me wrong.

DU and CU are closer in rank and quality than Drake and Iowa, but the same sentiment remains with a little less dichotomy. The ultimate reason, in my opinion, is portability. Iowa, like CU, is a much more portable degree than from their bigger city, lower rank cousins.

All in all, my take on it is this... If Drake is significantly cheaper and you want to remain in Des Moines, go to Drake. Or, if you are already established (home, kids, connections) in Des Moines, Drake might outweigh the benefit of Iowa because of the inconvenience of relocating to Iowa City for 3 years just to come back to Des Moines at the end.

For all other situations... Iowa, for sure.

[shredderrrrrr]

Thanks for all the great information! It does indeed look like Iowa is the much smarter choice in most circumstances. What about for someone who got the Opperman scholarship though? Obviously not looking to get it myself, but that program looks pretty amazing. I'd imagine that generous of a scholarship would be hard to turn down for those that get it.

[MoS]

Just some prospective from a 2L who has gone through OCI.

Yes, you can definitely get to Minneapolis from Iowa. I would venture to say that about a third of the OCI firms were from Minnesota.

The key to any market Iowa puts you in is to have connections. Even for Des Moines and Cedar Rapids. And by connections, I mean ties. You lived there, you have family there, your fiance's family is there, etc. Firms care about this not because they think this will make you profitable when you walk in the front door. It's not because they expect you to bring your "connections" in as clients. It's because they are going to lose money on you for the first few years you work there and they want to make sure you are going to stay there when you become profitable so they can recoup their investment in you. Summer associates do not do $20K worth of work in a summer, and first year associates do not net $115K their first year, or second and probably not their third. Firms are sinking money into the people they hire and they don't want someone who is going to run off to Chicago when they finally become profitable when they were the firm that spent the time and money to train that person.

One of the largest complaints I hear from people who are not from the midwest is that going to Iowa is not enough of a tie for firms to think that they are really going to stay in the midwest after graduation, while the firms in their home markets seem to think they don't want to be there because they went to school in Iowa.

I'm from Missouri, have family in Oklahoma and did undergrad in Texas. In every interview I went to south of Kansas City, they either directly asked if I really wanted to work in Chicago or strongly implied it with their questions. Firms are looking for a commitment to the area, and while I have spoken to a few recruiters who will say it can be small, their actions seem to say you need something a bit more significant than you're a huge twins fan, or your second cousin works in Omaha.

[chrisbru]

Thanks for all the great information! It does indeed look like Iowa is the much smarter choice in most circumstances. What about for someone who got the Opperman scholarship though? Obviously not looking to get it myself, but that program looks pretty amazing. I'd imagine that generous of a scholarship would be hard to turn down for those that get it.

I had never heard of the Opperman scholarship. The $10k/year stipend sounds nice though. Graduating from Drake with <$20k in cost of living debt would be nice if you want to stay in Des Moines, especially if you want to do public interest or something else low pay. It wouldn't suck to make $40k/year living in DSM with only $20k of debt.