University of Washington c/o 2016 Forum

[WhiskeynCoke]

I'm going to go through these statements you've just made one-by-one, because I fear that people reading this could be seriously and detrimentally misinformed (like you) if they believe them.

But let's keep in mind that the average improvement on a re-take for someone with a 163 LSAT is about 1.6 points. Very few individuals are going to make the 10-point improvement you're citing in the example above.

I'm sorry but this shocking statement is further evidence that you don't know how averages work and also are willing to give the sort of bad, misinformed advice to people that could ruin the rest of their life/career. Just as anecdotal evidence, I improved 12 points on a retake. So like Darth Vader, "I find your lack of faith disturbing." Please look at the data I've cited below:

http://www.lsac.org/lsacresources/data/ ... erdata.pdf

According to LSAC's very own repeater data, LITERALLY THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE have made the 10-point improvement I'm citing. Except this time, I'm actually citing it. I'd hardly call that "very few." The reason why the "average improvement" is only 1.6 points, is because thousands of people fail to properly prep themselves and thus DO WORSE, somewhat offsetting the thousands who do vastly better.

the school's rankings are not going to be skewed by its practice of averaging.

The school's rankings would be DESTROYED if they averaged. They are ranked top 20 because they DON'T AVERAGE. Please refer to my above posts in the context of what you've just learned about LSAT retakers if you still can't seem to get this. Nearly half of all applicants last cycle took the LSAT more than once. I'd say thats significant enough to "skew."

I'll admit I could be wrong...I would just hate for any applicant out there to assume the higher score will be used when the school is saying something different.

You ARE wrong. I would HATE for any applicant out there to assume that because schools "average," they shouldn't bother retaking the LSAT, potentially screwing themselves out of both their dream schools and SCHOLARSHIP $$$. The LSAT is very highly correlated with scholarship offers. These can be worth HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of dollars. It's the most important test of your life and you get 3 tries. Why the hell wouldn't you maximize your chances. Do you want one lotto ticket or three?

I took the test one time and scored exactly at last year's UW median. With any luck, the school will start issuing decisions soon and we can compare actual outcomes rather than speculating.

I'm not sure what to do here except urge you to read these forums a bit more. Something tells me you didn't prep nearly as much as you should've. By all means, stick your head in the sand and "speculate" away. It's just too bad you seem to be completely against retaking the LSAT, I bet you could improve a few points and earn yourself thousands of dollars in scholarship money. Instead, you seem to want to speculate your way into 6 figures of debt to attend UW at sticker, for a coin-flips chance at being a lawyer.

[kingsfield69]

I'm going to go through these statements you've just made one-by-one, because I fear that people reading this could be seriously and detrimentally misinformed (like you) if they believe them.

(blah blah blah)

I'm not sure what to do here except urge you to read these forums a bit more. Something tells me you didn't prep nearly as much as you should've. By all means, stick your head in the sand and "speculate" away. It's just too bad you seem to be completely against retaking the LSAT, I bet you could improve a few points and earn yourself thousands of dollars in scholarship money. Instead, you seem to want to speculate your way into 6 figures of debt to attend UW at sticker, for a coin-flips chance at being a lawyer.

Dear genius: we're both 0Ls. The difference between us, among other things, is that you have over-invested in both the speculative rantings of other 0Ls on TLS and your own misperceptions, to the point of losing perspective.

Thanks for making my point, though. The LSAC data you provided shows exactly ONE re-taker who jumped from a 152 to a 170/+. So....the example you used to make this argument (150/152/172) does indeed comprise so small a percentage of applicants that UW or any other school (including Harvard, which unequivocally averages LSAT scores) could turn down such an applicant without appreciably harming their overall median. Moreover, your claim that "literally thousands" of re-takers make a 10-point improvement is without foundation. There are 242 verifiable 10-point improvements in the data you posted from LSAC.

Look dude....congratulations on improving your score. We're all very proud of you. But maybe if you're so disenchanted with UW, you should just stay off the UW pages and allow those of us with a genuine interest to have a discussion.

Oh, and don't worry about me. I appreciate the concern, but I'm quite happy with my score, and even happier with the fact that, unlike you, I only had to take the test once in order to get admitted to law school. Do I wish I'd done better? Sure. But I'm not having any trouble financing law school with my score.

Your score improvement may get you into a great school, perhaps even a T6. But if your real-life "people skills" are anything like those you display in these forums, your life will not improve after graduation. If you can't disagree with someone without resorting to name-calling and (OMG) Darth Vader quotes, you won't make much of a lawyer/cab driver/janitor.

What did the French waiter say to Clark Griswold?

[BigZuck]

Duke claims they average. I had a score in the low 160s and retook to the high 160s. My average was like a 164 or something. Duke accepted me. If a first class school is not averaging then why would a bottom feeder do it? Schools don't average, especially not a rankings gamer like Washington.

Now, back to being on topic.

[kingsfield69]

Duke claims they average. I had a score in the low 160s and retook to the high 160s. My average was like a 164 or something. Duke accepted me. If a first class school is not averaging then why would a bottom feeder do it? Schools don't average, especially not a rankings gamer like Washington.

Now, back to being on topic.

I don't think we can infer from your example that Duke doesn't average. An average of 164 still gives you a reasonable % chance of admission, assuming a strong GPA and no other detractors in your app. I opted to apply RD w/ a 164 rather than re-testing. Will let you know how it goes.

In other news...I've been "In Review" with UW since 31 Oct. Does anyone know if "In Review" equates to "Under Review?" If it implies review is actually occurring, we're probably close to some decisions based on last year's timeline. If it merely means "handed to committee"...then who the hell knows. Given the recruiting pace they've been keeping, decisions this week do not seem likely....though the review process looks to have started 18 days earlier this year.

[BigZuck]

Duke claims they average. I had a score in the low 160s and retook to the high 160s. My average was like a 164 or something. Duke accepted me. If a first class school is not averaging then why would a bottom feeder do it? Schools don't average, especially not a rankings gamer like Washington.

Now, back to being on topic.

I don't think we can infer from your example that Duke doesn't average. An average of 164 still gives you a reasonable % chance of admission, assuming a strong GPA and no other detractors in your app. I opted to apply RD w/ a 164 rather than re-testing. Will let you know how it goes.

In other news...I've been "In Review" with UW since 31 Oct. Does anyone know if "In Review" equates to "Under Review?" If it implies review is actually occurring, we're probably close to some decisions based on last year's timeline. If it merely means "handed to committee"...then who the hell knows. Given the recruiting pace they've been keeping, decisions this week do not seem likely....though the review process looks to have started 18 days earlier this year.

Non-URM, Medianish gpa, exactly 0 applicants out of 60 on LSN were accepted with my numbers, let alone an average LSAT that was like 4 points lower. Median GPA and 164 has a 0% chance at Duke if non-URM. Schools do not average. The University of Washington does not average, don't worry about that guys.

Any out of staters applying to U-dub this cycle?

[kingsfield69]

Any out of staters applying to U-dub this cycle?

Yes. 164/3.89/non-URM. I lived in Washington for 3 years...we'll see if that buys me anything.

Also, let's mark the tape here ... if I get an admission offer from Duke, we'll come back to this.

[jamesbrf]

Checking in. 164/3.15 non-URM, lived in Seattle for the last few months, wanting to stay in Seattle for life. Strong softs and LORs. In at W&M where I didn't have a great shot. Hopeful for some good news from UW.

In other news...I've been "In Review" with UW since 31 Oct. Does anyone know if "In Review" equates to "Under Review?" If it implies review is actually occurring, we're probably close to some decisions based on last year's timeline. If it merely means "handed to committee"...then who the hell knows. Given the recruiting pace they've been keeping, decisions this week do not seem likely....though the review process looks to have started 18 days earlier this year.

I am not sure if it means we are being reviewed by the committee as we speak or if it means we will be "under review" very soon. I think either way we can expect offers to start coming out within the next two weeks or so, based on when admissions came out last year. A decision before Thanksgiving would be great! Black Friday or the first week in December would also be fantastic. We'll see.

[Sillygoose31]

Checking in. Best of luck to all!

[WhiskeynCoke]

Thanks for making my point, though. The LSAC data you provided shows exactly ONE re-taker who jumped from a 152 to a 170/+. So....the example you used to make this argument (150/152/172) does indeed comprise so small a percentage of applicants that UW or any other school (including Harvard, which unequivocally averages LSAT scores) could turn down such an applicant without appreciably harming their overall median. Moreover, your claim that "literally thousands" of re-takers make a 10-point improvement is without foundation. There are 242 verifiable 10-point improvements in the data you posted from LSAC.

Thanks for completely missing the point yet again. You're obviously beyond help so I'll just stop after this last post. The point of my argument wasn't to establish that there are thousands of people who improve from exactly a 150 to a 170. The point was to demonstrate to you that thousands of people retake the LSAT, and improve by A LOT. That link proves direct evidence to this. Here's a quick example from the info provided that I'm sure you won't get because you refuse to understand numbers:

If we just look at retakers who scored between 150-155 on their first try, 1494 scored between 160-169 on their retakes. This means that just in this tiny, 5-point range of scorers, nearly 1500 improved by at least 5 points (155->160) and up to 19 points (150->169).

THOUSANDS of people significantly improve their score with a retake, thus by averaging scores schools would be acting counter to their own interests. What incentive does a school have to average? there answer is none. there is NO INCENTIVE TO AVERAGE and EVERY INCENTIVE TO TAKE THE HIGHEST SCORE, which is what every school does INCLUDING HARVARD.

Oh, and don't worry about me. I appreciate the concern, but I'm quite happy with my score, and even happier with the fact that, unlike you, I only had to take the test once in order to get admitted to law school. Do I wish I'd done better? Sure. But I'm not having any trouble financing law school with my score.

FYI my first score was a 167. The difference between you and I is that I was able to recognize the incredible benefits to my future that could be had by retaking and improving my score, which I did. I suppose ignorance is bliss though. By all means, settle for your first half-ass attempt. More scholarship money for the rest of us.

I don't think we can infer from your example that Duke doesn't average.

I challenge you to provide one single example of one single law school averaging LSAT scores. I can provide you countless examples that they don't.

---- To everyone considering a retake who is discouraged from doing so due to a worry about UW "averaging" your scores: Don't listen to this guy.... THEY DONT! You have NOTHING TO LOSE by retaking and EVERYTHING TO GAIN.

Carpe Diem Yo.

[kingsfield69]

Carpe Diem Yo.

Just to end this chicanery and restore order: fine, you win. No one averages. They're all lying. All of those university professors who sit on admissions committees suddenly morph into compliant monkeys every admissions season and allow US News to tell them exactly who they should admit. This is why there are zero outliers. Every applicant is online telling his story openly. Softs don't matter. LSN is a perfectly accurate sample, and you should infer macro-patterns from it. No one misrepresents LSAT score or GPA online. Everyone everywhere does exactly what is in his/her direct interest all the time. Humans are linear. Numbers and discrete data are all we need to make decisions. The LSAT is a perfect predictor of success in law school and beyond. Previous scores are not considered. And in fact, the Deans of Admissions are all engaged in an unholy conspiracy to mislead us all into believing scores are averaged, ostensibly so they can pad the LSAC coffers (because they love LSAC and especially the LSAT) and so they can elicit a few thousand more unwanted applications to weed through in attempting to find candidates who will bring merit to their schools.

Here is a compliment: you are the quintessential 0L ... all answers, no questions.

Like I said before: "I could be wrong." You might try that phrase out once in awhile.

[WhiskeynCoke]

Here is a compliment: you are the quintessential 0L ... all answers, no questions.

Thanks for the nod (lol). You should realize that these answers began as questions. In 2011 my primary question when deciding whether or not to retake was: "do schools really average?" Over a year of researching this issue provided me with these answers, which unequivocally have supported the assertions I have made here (They don't). It was because of this conclusion that I ended up retaking and improving, vastly increasing my prospects.

My goal is simply to pass this message along to others who may be on the fence, in hopes of helping them better their own prospects through what I've learned about the process in my year of researching it.

Just to please you, "I could be wrong" about many things, but this isn't one of them.

[dproduct]

[kingsfield69]

Given that we seem to have a thread consisting of misguided posters (myself included) and free riders (you included), hopelessness is inevitable. But this is humorous.

[Gustave]

Checking in! 3.54/174, UG@ UW. Born and raised in the clean streets of Ballard, and would love to wax poetic about Seattle if any out of staters need convincing.

[SpecterHewes&Mccoy]

Also a UW UG checking in. In review since 10/31 and obsessively visiting the status checker. Hoping to hear something by Apple Cup!

[dproduct]

Checking in! 3.54/174, UG@ UW. Born and raised in the clean streets of Ballard, and would love to wax poetic about Seattle if any out of staters need convincing.

I can't wait to see what scholarship you get!

[kingsfield69]

Checking in! 3.54/174, UG@ UW. Born and raised in the clean streets of Ballard, and would love to wax poetic about Seattle if any out of staters need convincing.

Should I get admitted, I'd be bringing a wife and two teenagers to Seattle. Solid public school is a must. Roosevelt? Ballard? If you're me and the main concern is low crime/good QoL for the family combined with a commute <15 minutes, where do you live? How's life in Greenlake? Ballard?

Someone is going to critique me because this is the wrong thread for these questions. Consider it my form of protest, to be lifted when UW starts showing some movement on decisions.

[SpecterHewes&Mccoy]

Checking in! 3.54/174, UG@ UW. Born and raised in the clean streets of Ballard, and would love to wax poetic about Seattle if any out of staters need convincing.

Should I get admitted, I'd be bringing a wife and two teenagers to Seattle. Solid public school is a must. Roosevelt? Ballard? If you're me and the main concern is low crime/good QoL for the family combined with a commute <15 minutes, where do you live? How's life in Greenlake? Ballard?

Someone is going to critique me because this is the wrong thread for these questions. Consider it my form of protest, to be lifted when UW starts showing some movement on decisions.

Look at Bellevue. They have excellent schools and would be a great place to live.

[kingsfield69]

Checking in! 3.54/174, UG@ UW. Born and raised in the clean streets of Ballard, and would love to wax poetic about Seattle if any out of staters need convincing.

Should I get admitted, I'd be bringing a wife and two teenagers to Seattle. Solid public school is a must. Roosevelt? Ballard? If you're me and the main concern is low crime/good QoL for the family combined with a commute <15 minutes, where do you live? How's life in Greenlake? Ballard?

Someone is going to critique me because this is the wrong thread for these questions. Consider it my form of protest, to be lifted when UW starts showing some movement on decisions.

Look at Bellevue. They have excellent schools and would be a great place to live.

Will do -- thanks!

[Lookingforanswers]

Also a UW UG checking in. In review since 10/31 and obsessively visiting the status checker. Hoping to hear something by Apple Cup!

I don't know, I doubt they will make final decisions this week I say next week or first week of december they roll out decisions.

[Gustave]

Checking in! 3.54/174, UG@ UW. Born and raised in the clean streets of Ballard, and would love to wax poetic about Seattle if any out of staters need convincing.

Should I get admitted, I'd be bringing a wife and two teenagers to Seattle. Solid public school is a must. Roosevelt? Ballard? If you're me and the main concern is low crime/good QoL for the family combined with a commute <15 minutes, where do you live? How's life in Greenlake? Ballard?

Someone is going to critique me because this is the wrong thread for these questions. Consider it my form of protest, to be lifted when UW starts showing some movement on decisions.

I'm the son and brother to two Seattle Public School teachers, and a product of the system. We had some tumult with PICS v SPS a decade ago or so, and our schools are still out of whack. A lot of the local innovation has been a push toward micro-acadamy's within schools, but it's just had the effect of making two tiers of education in the same school. Basically, we have great teachers and strong communities, but some of our schools are spinning their wheels. Secondary schools I'd recommend: Nathan Hale, Garfield (in the APP program, if they can test in) Ballard, Roosevelt.

Crime in Seattle is fairly low, and as bad as traffic is, it's had the effect of leveling the playing field. We have a hodge-podge of east-west arterials, and I-5 rending us north-south, so no matter where you're going it takes about 20 minutes with light traffic. All of the aforementioned schools are about 20 minutes away from UW, as is almost all of Seattle (W. Seattle and Magnolia not included.)

Ballard is infested with hipsters, and rents are relatively high. I live in Lake City, which has a bad reputation, but is beautiful, inexpensive, vibrant, close to UW and right on the Burke-Gilman (our bike path that weaves through most of North Seattle.) Across the lake (Bellevue) is a pain. Traffic on 520 is terrible, and with all the construction in Montlake and the intermittnat closures we can expect for the next few years, I wouldn't want to rely on that road at all.

Overall, Seattle's a very livable city with low crime and ok schools. Also, Macklemore.

[kingsfield69]

Checking in! 3.54/174, UG@ UW. Born and raised in the clean streets of Ballard, and would love to wax poetic about Seattle if any out of staters need convincing.

Should I get admitted, I'd be bringing a wife and two teenagers to Seattle. Solid public school is a must. Roosevelt? Ballard? If you're me and the main concern is low crime/good QoL for the family combined with a commute <15 minutes, where do you live? How's life in Greenlake? Ballard?

Someone is going to critique me because this is the wrong thread for these questions. Consider it my form of protest, to be lifted when UW starts showing some movement on decisions.

I'm the son and brother to two Seattle Public School teachers, and a product of the system. We had some tumult with PICS v SPS a decade ago or so, and our schools are still out of whack. A lot of the local innovation has been a push toward micro-acadamy's within schools, but it's just had the effect of making two tiers of education in the same school. Basically, we have great teachers and strong communities, but some of our schools are spinning their wheels. Secondary schools I'd recommend: Nathan Hale, Garfield (in the APP program, if they can test in) Ballard, Roosevelt.

Crime in Seattle is fairly low, and as bad as traffic is, it's had the effect of leveling the playing field. We have a hodge-podge of east-west arterials, and I-5 rending us north-south, so no matter where you're going it takes about 20 minutes with light traffic. All of the aforementioned schools are about 20 minutes away from UW, as is almost all of Seattle (W. Seattle and Magnolia not included.)

Ballard is infested with hipsters, and rents are relatively high. I live in Lake City, which has a bad reputation, but is beautiful, inexpensive, vibrant, close to UW and right on the Burke-Gilman (our bike path that weaves through most of North Seattle.) Across the lake (Bellevue) is a pain. Traffic on 520 is terrible, and with all the construction in Montlake and the intermittnat closures we can expect for the next few years, I wouldn't want to rely on that road at all.

Overall, Seattle's a very livable city with low crime and ok schools. Also, Macklemore.

Appreciate the input, my friend. Just need an answer from UW now...hopefully we'll hear soon. Good luck to you!

[Lookingforanswers]

Checking in! 3.54/174, UG@ UW. Born and raised in the clean streets of Ballard, and would love to wax poetic about Seattle if any out of staters need convincing.

Should I get admitted, I'd be bringing a wife and two teenagers to Seattle. Solid public school is a must. Roosevelt? Ballard? If you're me and the main concern is low crime/good QoL for the family combined with a commute <15 minutes, where do you live? How's life in Greenlake? Ballard?

Someone is going to critique me because this is the wrong thread for these questions. Consider it my form of protest, to be lifted when UW starts showing some movement on decisions.

I'm the son and brother to two Seattle Public School teachers, and a product of the system. We had some tumult with PICS v SPS a decade ago or so, and our schools are still out of whack. A lot of the local innovation has been a push toward micro-acadamy's within schools, but it's just had the effect of making two tiers of education in the same school. Basically, we have great teachers and strong communities, but some of our schools are spinning their wheels. Secondary schools I'd recommend: Nathan Hale, Garfield (in the APP program, if they can test in) Ballard, Roosevelt.

Crime in Seattle is fairly low, and as bad as traffic is, it's had the effect of leveling the playing field. We have a hodge-podge of east-west arterials, and I-5 rending us north-south, so no matter where you're going it takes about 20 minutes with light traffic. All of the aforementioned schools are about 20 minutes away from UW, as is almost all of Seattle (W. Seattle and Magnolia not included.)

Ballard is infested with hipsters, and rents are relatively high. I live in Lake City, which has a bad reputation, but is beautiful, inexpensive, vibrant, close to UW and right on the Burke-Gilman (our bike path that weaves through most of North Seattle.) Across the lake (Bellevue) is a pain. Traffic on 520 is terrible, and with all the construction in Montlake and the intermittnat closures we can expect for the next few years, I wouldn't want to rely on that road at all.

Overall, Seattle's a very livable city with low crime and ok schools. Also, Macklemore.

Appreciate the input, my friend. Just need an answer from UW now...hopefully we'll hear soon. Good luck to you!

Last Year the first review batch went in before thanksgiving (11/17) and they let people know about 4 weeks later (December 13th)... so hopefully we will hear soon!

[jamesbrf]

So I checked LSN today and there is someone who is says they were accepted already. If they didn't mean to select WUSL but selected UW by mistake, it could mean we will hear back sometime soon. Unless UW adcom has today off. Hope you all had a great Thanksgiving.

[Gustave]

So I checked LSN today and there is someone who is says they were accepted already. If they didn't mean to select WUSL but selected UW by mistake, it could mean we will hear back sometime soon. Unless UW adcom has today off. Hope you all had a great Thanksgiving.

I know the guy (Krister) IRL and can confirm that he was accepted. Let's get excited, people!