CU Boulder 2011 Forum

[rekopter]

Which school(s) place well in Denver then??

CU >> Denver-- but the gap isn't as wide as you'd think by looking at the rankings. CU is also cheaper because you can get easily get in-state tuition after your first year, however if you can get into CU you can probably get $$ from DU.

[rekopter]

Another CU 3L here.

If 75% of the class doesn't have something lined up, what will the majority of them end up doing?

Last year's grads are working as trial court clerks, lawyers in small to midsize firms, small government lawyers, solo practitioners, public defenders, businesspeople, restaurant servers, and are going back to school to get a degree in an area people are hiring in (or at least to keep their loans from coming due). "Restaurant server" should probably be higher on that list if it were ranked in order of prevalence.

If you're going to law school at CU (or at any other law school ranked, oh, 20-80), you should be picturing your ideal career path as being a trial court clerk for a year, then networking your way into becoming a lawyer who writes up documents relating to small insurance settlement trust accounts, in a small-ish firm in a Denver suburb, making no more than $60k/yr (and probably closer to $50k) at the outset and working your way up the ladder with 50-60 hour weeks. You will be moderately dissatisfied with your life, living in a rented condo far from downtown, driving a used Corolla, Civic, or Focus (seriously, like 60% of the lawyers in CO drive one of those three vehicles), and drinking too much with other lawyers surprisingly frequently.

I will reiterate, that should not be your fallback option, it's more of a reasonable thing to strive for. Talking biglaw is a bit of a joke amongst the vast majority of law students in this country.

If only the top 10-20% are looking at big law what are the other sorts of opportunities out there for CU grads?

You don't get biglaw from CU, and the foregoing statement requires some explanation.

Maybe 8% of each class at CU has the credentials to get a legitimate biglaw interview (note that URM status is a credential). Maybe 4% have the credentials to get a summer clerkship with a biglaw firm in Denver. Maybe 2% have the lawyering and interpersonal skills necessary to get a permanent offer. In this economy, 0-1% will get such offers.

The 10-20% figure refers to the folks who have a chance to be hired by the larger firms in the Denver market. These firms will give you a biglaw-like paycheck, and require biglaw-like hours to be billed by you, but they won't be ranked on any biglaw list. In this economy, I'd guess that only 5-8% of the class has any particular chance at any such positions.

Do most stay in CO upon graduation?

Yes. If they don't stay in CO upon graduation, it's only to go to Montana, or New Mexico, or something like that. CU places well throughout the mountain west region, and only throughout the mountain west region. Of course, the only real legal market in the mountain west region is Denver.

Is the cutoff for BigLaw where it is because of the small market or because Denver has many other T-14 grads coming in?

Does it matter? The cutoff for biglaw is where it is because there aren't that many biglaw (or biglaw-lite) jobs out there that are attainable by CU grads upon graduation. The competition or the size of the market aren't going to change anytime soon, so they're largely irrelevant.

-Pufer

Just to be clear here, Pufer defines biglaw in a limited way to include only $160k market firms--which is only about four firms in Denver (Hogan, MoFo, Arnold & Porter, Gibson). He excludes the larger regional firms (Reilly Pozner, Holland & Hart, Rothgerber, Brownstein, etc.) which are highly desirable to most law students and pay in the range of $120k or so.

[Pufer]

Just to be clear here, Pufer defines biglaw in a limited way to include only $160k market firms--which is only about four firms in Denver (Hogan, MoFo, Arnold & Porter, Gibson). He excludes the larger regional firms (Reilly Pozner, Holland & Hart, Rothgerber, Brownstein, etc.) which are highly desirable to most law students and pay in the range of $120k or so.

Indeed. "Biglaw," as it is used on TLS and other places in the internet legal realm, has a fairly well-defined definition: the firm is big (100+ lawyers at a minimum, typically a lot of offices in a lot of states/countries), it pays biglaw scale ($160k/yr+), it is ranked on some kind of biglaw ranking (Vault 100 or similar).

Placing well in Denver simply has nothing to do with placing well in biglaw. As rekopter said, MoFo has an office here, and will hire nothing but Stanford and Berkeley grads just off a 10th Circuit clerkship for their one open Denver new associate spot. The only reason MoFo has an office here, however, is to service its big corporate clients who are also here, but are based elsewhere. They do very specific stuff, for very specific clients, and their only real tie to the Denver legal market is the fact that they happen to have an office here. Maybe four of these positions will open up even in the best of years - they are not where the jobs are in the Denver market.

Large scale local business isn't going to MoFo. To replicate the services provided by a MoFo, they'll hire a regional firm (e.g., Brownstein, Hyatt, Farber & Schreck), or put together the services of four or five smaller, Denver-based boutique firms (e.g., Reilly Pozner or Messner & Reeves) on an as-needed basis. None of these smaller firms fit the definition of biglaw. However, few of these firms will substantial operations outside of Denver, and they will be primarily drawing new lawyers from CU and DU. As rekopter correctly says, this is where the big-time firm jobs are in the Denver market. However, the simple reality is, there aren't all that many jobs in this "midlaw" category (none of these are massive firms, and hire as needed, creating rekopter's 10-20% cutoff).

Everybody else (the bulk of the law business) goes to even smaller firms. This is where the majority of CU grads will end up. However, the simple fact of the matter is that, unless you go to a T14, the bulk of every school's graduating class will end up in such firms. If you want true biglaw making $160k, go to a T14. If you want a chance at a good clerkship followed up by a job with a midlaw firm, but will be fine with working at a suburban five-person firm too so long as you're a lawyer, CU is an excellent choice.

-Pufer

[oldhippie]

i'm curious to know what kind of jobs (if any) the environmental law folks are finding after graduation...my idealistic self would like to go into environmental law, but my practical self is a bit wary....

but i know i would LOVE to live in boulder - just spent a week in the area on vacation and i want to be back there very very much....what a beautiful area!!

[Pufer]

i'm curious to know what kind of jobs (if any) the environmental law folks are finding after graduation...my idealistic self would like to go into environmental law, but my practical self is a bit wary....

but i know i would LOVE to live in boulder - just spent a week in the area on vacation and i want to be back there very very much....what a beautiful area!!

Most folks who get jobs in environmental law coming from CU end up working for small, but fairly lucrative, water law firms. Most of these people came to law school not realizing that environmental law generally has very little to do with environmentalism, and, instead, wanted to practice corporate law or something.

Generally, environmental law deals with regulatory compliance (i.e., you sift through tons of paperwork making sure that your client's subcontractors have the requisite certifications so that they can kill loads of fluffy owls with their giant acid leech mining operation) or resource rights (i.e., your client has a questionable deed to more water from the river for his industrial solvent factory, but the slaughterhouse upstream has a similarly questionable deed giving it rights to the same water).

There are a handful of successful firms that sue the leech mining operations, solvent factories, and slaughterhouses under various statutes and regulations, but they are very few and far between (i.e., there aren't that many jobs, and they're usually not looking to hire folks right out of LS). Most of that kind of work is handled by non-profits and generally unsuccessful firms, all of which have like two lawyers, and would be happy to take on a newly minted lawyer, so long as the new lawyer is keen on making $28k/yr and spending most of her time acting as the secretary.

There's also government jobs, but you have to have top grades, Law Review, etc., to be considered for federal jobs coming from CU, and Colorado has slapped hiring freezes on most of its state agencies (which aren't likely to go away anytime soon). Thus, government really isn't all that big an option either.

What does hire in the environmental realm are small to midlaw firms that do environmental work for the big corporations and landowners. That's where you get environmental law jobs, but it's not the kind of environmental law that most folks who come to law school to be environmental lawyers really want to do.

-Pufer

[oldhippie]

thanks - this is what i needed to know! somewhat disappointing but not at all surprising...reality checks are a good thing!

[Law Sauce]

thanks pufer, you seem knowledgeable and straightforward

[adora]

I'm a 1L at Colorado and would be happy to take questions, too. I don't know nearly as much as the 2Ls and 3Ls, obviously, and have only been here for a few months, but will help if I can.

[Barbie]

I'm a 1L at Colorado and would be happy to take questions, too. I don't know nearly as much as the 2Ls and 3Ls, obviously, and have only been here for a few months, but will help if I can.

Do you have any idea when we will be hearing back from Colorado? Its a big reach for me and I am really anxious hah.

[thewarflamingo]

I'm a 1L at Colorado and would be happy to take questions, too. I don't know nearly as much as the 2Ls and 3Ls, obviously, and have only been here for a few months, but will help if I can.

Do you have any idea when we will be hearing back from Colorado? Its a big reach for me and I am really anxious hah.

The complete email said their first batch will be early January.

[adora]

I'm a 1L at Colorado and would be happy to take questions, too. I don't know nearly as much as the 2Ls and 3Ls, obviously, and have only been here for a few months, but will help if I can.

Do you have any idea when we will be hearing back from Colorado? Its a big reach for me and I am really anxious hah.

I found out in the first weekish of January. And it was a big reach for me, too, so keep hope . I think CU really does "look beyond the numbers."

[oldhippie]

i'm hoping to get a really nice christmas present from colorado and hear from them in december
but i suppose i'll be willing to wait until january if they want to be that way! here's hoping i return to this thread with good news one day!!!!

[chrisbru]

I applied 11/15 and haven't heard anything from CU yet. It's definitely one of my top choices... Especially with the in-state after one year kicker. I'm a huge snowboard fanatic, so it would be my dream to live so close to such great riding. Hoping for an acceptance and some $$

GPA 2.94
LSAT 171

[Barbie]

Had a dream I woke up to a rejection email from CU. It was so short and impersonal just like : Sorry, the admissions committee has opted to REJECT your application. Good luck with other schools.

so, yeah, it was a nightmare

[theavrock]

Had a dream I woke up to a rejection email from CU. It was so short and impersonal just like : Sorry, the admissions committee has opted to REJECT your application. Good luck with other schools.

so, yeah, it was a nightmare

Yikes! That's no fun!

[oldhippie]

this is gonna be a LOOOONG few weeks!!

no more nightmares, barbie!!!! it's only because you're sick.....next week you'll have an acceptance dream

[chrisbru]

Any ideas when decisions start coming out? I got an email saying my app was complete on 11/23. The no status checker is killing me!

[oldhippie]

last year it was towards the end of december for the first round.......
here's hoping it's the same this year!!! (i want an acceptance for christmas)

[stefpup]

The email I got from Boulder said that I would get a letter before the end of December. I applied Early Decision so it is getting processed sooner.

[deja]

The email I got from Boulder said that I would get a letter before the end of December. I applied Early Decision so it is getting processed sooner.

Thanks for sharing. That's nice to hear they're working on them, but at the same time a little disheartening for us RD folks knowing ours likely will not come until after that.

[stefpup]

The email I got from Boulder said that I would get a letter before the end of December. I applied Early Decision so it is getting processed sooner.

Thanks for sharing. That's nice to hear they're working on them, but at the same time a little disheartening for us RD folks knowing ours likely will not come until after that.

I was a lot less nervous when I thought I wasn't hearing from Boulder until January. I'm hoping to get it before the holidays because I'll be out of state for them, and the mail is always messed up at that time of year.

[mrwarre85]

These employment stats are terrifying but very useful. Oh well I applied to a bunch of 20-80 schools and will go at sticker becuase I want to and I'm largely an idiot.

Sign me up.

[mapes]

Checking in here. Applied around thanksgiving. Finishing up UG in Boulder, and would be happy to answer any questions about the area. I've been here 4 years and have loved every minute of it!

[chrisbru]

What do 1 and 2 bedroom apartments typically run? How's the bar scene? What's the best pass to get for the winter? I've heard the Epic pass is the best, and I do LOVE Breck and Keystone.

[Barbie]

What do 1 and 2 bedroom apartments typically run? How's the bar scene? What's the best pass to get for the winter? I've heard the Epic pass is the best, and I do LOVE Breck and Keystone.

best PASS to get? What are you talking about? I'm confused hah