Waitlists Galore Oh My! Forum

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Great Satchmo

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Re: Waitlists Galore Oh My!

Post by Great Satchmo » Thu Jul 08, 2010 2:50 am

rad law wrote:
marknsanchez wrote:I do have $...Post 911 GI Bill and tuition assistance from the military.
So don't waste it.

edit: came a lot more dickish than it was, but seriously, spending the money on a better school (much better school) is an immeasurably better career decision.
Wait, so let me get this right:

If he had the same numbers, but got some scholarship money by luck at Denver off of the WL, you'd say that it's a decent option.

But the money comes from the GI Bill and then it's a waste?

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Grizz

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Re: Waitlists Galore Oh My!

Post by Grizz » Thu Jul 08, 2010 9:27 am

Great Satchmo wrote:
rad law wrote:
marknsanchez wrote:I do have $...Post 911 GI Bill and tuition assistance from the military.
So don't waste it.

edit: came a lot more dickish than it was, but seriously, spending the money on a better school (much better school) is an immeasurably better career decision.
Wait, so let me get this right:

If he had the same numbers, but got some scholarship money by luck at Denver off of the WL, you'd say that it's a decent option.

But the money comes from the GI Bill and then it's a waste?
When you can spend the exact same money at any school, yes.

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Great Satchmo

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Re: Waitlists Galore Oh My!

Post by Great Satchmo » Thu Jul 08, 2010 1:45 pm

rad law wrote:
Great Satchmo wrote:
rad law wrote:
marknsanchez wrote:I do have $...Post 911 GI Bill and tuition assistance from the military.
So don't waste it.

edit: came a lot more dickish than it was, but seriously, spending the money on a better school (much better school) is an immeasurably better career decision.
Wait, so let me get this right:

If he had the same numbers, but got some scholarship money by luck at Denver off of the WL, you'd say that it's a decent option.

But the money comes from the GI Bill and then it's a waste?
When you can spend the exact same money at any school, yes.
Unless you don't get into those other schools, in which case you can't.

Just saying, the GI Bill is money to use for school. If he gets into a school that he is happy enough with, and isn't too bad on the employment side (given the fact that schools not starting with the letters "Yale" don't have the best employment stats), then how is it a problem?

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Grizz

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Re: Waitlists Galore Oh My!

Post by Grizz » Thu Jul 08, 2010 2:03 pm

Great Satchmo wrote: Unless you don't get into those other schools, in which case you can't.

Just saying, the GI Bill is money to use for school. If he gets into a school that he is happy enough with, and isn't too bad on the employment side (given the fact that schools not starting with the letters "Yale" don't have the best employment stats), then how is it a problem?
OP can do better. OP is just unwilling to retake.

And these schools aren't just mediocre on the employment stats, they are pretty bad, with the possible exception of Denver. I just don't understand the aversion to retaking when you can use the exact same money for much, much better options.

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Re: Waitlists Galore Oh My!

Post by marknsanchez » Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:36 pm

rad law wrote:
Great Satchmo wrote: Unless you don't get into those other schools, in which case you can't.

Just saying, the GI Bill is money to use for school. If he gets into a school that he is happy enough with, and isn't too bad on the employment side (given the fact that schools not starting with the letters "Yale" don't have the best employment stats), then how is it a problem?
OP can do better. OP is just unwilling to retake.

And these schools aren't just mediocre on the employment stats, they are pretty bad, with the possible exception of Denver. I just don't understand the aversion to retaking when you can use the exact same money for much, much better options.
You are mistaken about the employment stats. Like I've said, I've done my research and most of these schools are very well reputable in their respective regions. Chapman and Southwestern for example are not considered by TLS as the best schools but in LA they are right up there with USC, UCLA and Loyola. I should add that I know alumni and students from these schools as well. I have a pretty good gauge of where I want to go career-wise and have already established myself pretty well on that end. The reason I'm unwilling to retake is that I'm not getting any younger and I've already retaken once. I don't understand the aversion of people wanting to work a little harder than the T14 grad upon entering the job market. Going to a T14 doesn't seal the deal for anyone. You have to sell yourself...so to speak :lol: . As I commented earlier, your point is well taken and makes perfect sense. However you can't paint everyone with the same brush and the same broad stroke.

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romothesavior

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Re: Waitlists Galore Oh My!

Post by romothesavior » Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:40 pm

marknsanchez wrote: Chapman and Southwestern for example are not considered by TLS as the best schools but in LA they are right up there with USC, UCLA and Loyola... I should add that I know alumni and students from these schools as well.
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Re: Waitlists Galore Oh My!

Post by marknsanchez » Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:46 pm

Hahaha, I know it sounds far-fetched (and maybe it is a little) but I know people at big law firms in LA and they will agree that they are very good schools for those wanting to practice in SoCal.

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kalvano

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Re: Waitlists Galore Oh My!

Post by kalvano » Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:46 pm

marknsanchez wrote:Chapman and Southwestern for example are not considered by TLS as the best schools but in LA they are right up there with USC, UCLA and Loyola.

Lulz.

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Grizz

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Re: Waitlists Galore Oh My!

Post by Grizz » Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:51 pm

marknsanchez wrote: You are mistaken about the employment stats.
Before we proceed - you know school self-reported stats are bunk, right? Just making sure.
Like I've said, I've done my research and most of these schools are very well reputable in their respective regions. Chapman and Southwestern for example are not considered by TLS as the best schools but in LA they are right up there with USC, UCLA and Loyola.
Let's get one thing straight. Loyola is not even really "up there." They're no doing so hot. In fact, they refused to release employment stats to USNWR for the 2010 ranking. USNWR assumes a certain low percentage if a school does not report; logically, this was even higher than the actual employment %, or Loyola would have reported. Remember how "Loyola 2L" trumpeted on the internet about how Loyola was grossly inflating its numbers and telling people to stay away? Well Chapman and Southwestern are worse. California itself is in deep shit, what with de facto hiring freezes for local govt., etc.
I don't understand the aversion of people wanting to work a little harder than the T14 grad upon entering the job market.
lolwut

One can't just "work harder" to get the jobs; prestige factors into this as well.

You may not even get a legal job at all. That is part of the problem. And your school's rep won't really leave you, at least not for years. People love to say how after your first one of two jobs, it doesn't matter where you went. The problem is, you may not get a good 1st or 2nd job, which will lead to more of the same.

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maxm2764

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Re: Waitlists Galore Oh My!

Post by maxm2764 » Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:53 pm

romothesavior wrote:
marknsanchez wrote: Chapman and Southwestern for example are not considered by TLS as the best schools but in LA they are right up there with USC, UCLA and Loyola... I should add that I know alumni and students from these schools as well.
Oh boy, not the right thing to say with romo and rad lurking around.

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Re: Waitlists Galore Oh My!

Post by GettingReady2010 » Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:53 pm

What are your numbers OP?

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maxm2764

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Re: Waitlists Galore Oh My!

Post by maxm2764 » Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:55 pm

romothesavior wrote:
marknsanchez wrote:
Image
And +1000000. Awesome.

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Re: Waitlists Galore Oh My!

Post by marknsanchez » Thu Jul 08, 2010 6:16 pm

You are right, CA is in the crapper but home is home. Loyola is still very well reputable in SoCal regardless. However I did hear the other day that they were going to inflate their students grades to be able to better compete for jobs upon graduation. I believe this is more an indication of the poor legal job market in general though.

One most definitely can "work harder" to get jobs. Previous job experience and expertise are huge factors. However prestige of your school does help open doors...no one can refute that.

Let's face it, the job market for those graduating law school is grim for almost everyone. All we can do is pray that in 3 years it will be a little better.

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Re: Waitlists Galore Oh My!

Post by marknsanchez » Thu Jul 08, 2010 6:18 pm

maxm2764 wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
marknsanchez wrote:
Image
And +1000000. Awesome.
I have to say I did laugh my ass off when I saw that!

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Grizz

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Re: Waitlists Galore Oh My!

Post by Grizz » Thu Jul 08, 2010 6:18 pm

marknsanchez wrote: Let's face it, the job market for those graduating law school is grim for almost everyone.
But it is much more grim for grads of these schools.
All we can do is pray that in 3 years it will be a little better.
About a year and a half until 2L OCI though.

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maxm2764

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Re: Waitlists Galore Oh My!

Post by maxm2764 » Thu Jul 08, 2010 6:33 pm

Hey sanchez I might be able to give you a different perspective on this issue. I by no means have stellar numbers (158/3.5ish) so take this with a grain of salt if you want. Romo and rad speak the truth and they're much more knowledgeable of this whole process but I thought I'd give you another way to look at it. Also they're 100% correct, going to a higher ranked school is much better than settling for something lower.

First of all, thank you for your service to our country it is truly appreciated.

Second, I too worked my tail off to get my LSAT score to where it is now and while it's not the best, or even close to it, I'm pretty sure I'll move on to the application process. If you honestly feel like there's not much else you can do LSAT- wise then don't retake and work with what you have. I'd say go to Denver if you get off of that waitlist assuming that's what is best for you. That's really what it all comes down to, what's best for you and your family. Job prospects look grim pretty much everywhere, and while going to a much better school will give you better chances, it just might not be in the cards for you. Law school is a risk for anyone who is applying, but then again so is going out into the job market without a JD. I don't know if this was helpful but I have similar numbers and thought I'd weigh in.

Please let me know or PM me if I can help you with anything and I'll definitely do my best.

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Re: Waitlists Galore Oh My!

Post by GettingReady2010 » Thu Jul 08, 2010 6:43 pm

My advice to OP would be go to law school in a small to midsize market where the school has a good reputation and is not surrounded by better schools. For example, I think it would be foolish to go to a lower ranked school in cities like LA, NY, and Chicago. These cities have excellent schools and also receive an influx of grads from around the country. IMO, it would be much better to go to a T3/T4 in a state like KY or Arkansas than to go to a T2 or a lower ranked T1 in the aforementioned cities.

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maxm2764

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Re: Waitlists Galore Oh My!

Post by maxm2764 » Thu Jul 08, 2010 6:47 pm

GettingReady2010 wrote:My advice to OP would be go to law school in a small to midsize market where the school has a good reputation and is not surrounded by better schools. For example, I think it would be foolish to go to a lower ranked school in cities like LA, NY, and Chicago. These cities have excellent schools and also receive an influx of grads from around the country. IMO, it would be much better to go to a T3/T4 in a state like KY or Arkansas than to go to a T2 or a lower ranked T1 in the aforementioned cities.
Very, very credited.

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Re: Waitlists Galore Oh My!

Post by jj55 » Thu Jul 08, 2010 7:01 pm

GettingReady2010 wrote:My advice to OP would be go to law school in a small to midsize market where the school has a good reputation and is not surrounded by better schools. For example, I think it would be foolish to go to a lower ranked school in cities like LA, NY, and Chicago. These cities have excellent schools and also receive an influx of grads from around the country. IMO, it would be much better to go to a T3/T4 in a state like KY or Arkansas than to go to a T2 or a lower ranked T1 in the aforementioned cities.
This might be a good strategy if you are only concerned about maximizing earnings and have no preference about where you want to live. However, I can't imagine there are too many people who are completely indifferent between living in New York, Los Angeles, Arkansas, and Kentucky. The OP says he would prefer to stay in Southern California, so attending a T3/T4 in Arkansas isn't going to accomplish that goal, while attending a T3/T4 in California is, even if his salary isn't going to be as high as it would be in Arkansas.

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Re: Waitlists Galore Oh My!

Post by holydonkey » Thu Jul 08, 2010 7:08 pm

marknsanchez wrote:The dilemma I'm currently facing is to whether or not to pay the seat deposit at one of these schools that I'm accepted to.
No.
marknsanchez wrote:I would think that out of 6 wait lists I'm bound to get into one of those schools.
No.
marknsanchez wrote:Also, would it be wise to show up at an admissions office where I'm wait listed and ask to speak with some one?
Yes, if you would like to attend one of these schools.
marknsanchez wrote:Any advice will be greatly appreciated!
Do not attend one of these schools. Retake.

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Re: Waitlists Galore Oh My!

Post by SilverE2 » Fri Jul 09, 2010 1:11 am

DO NOT go to any of these schools. You will regret it! I can't be any more clear, the odds of securing a decent job in the foreseeable future are overwhelmingly against you if you choose to attend. I mean, there are people freaking turning down top 20 schools because they're not comfortable going to one at sticker and would rather retake next year and give themselves a chance to get money/a better school. These people are not crazy, and the fact that this is happening should give you pause. I can guarantee you, considering the current economic situation of the legal world, as much of a hassle as it would be to rearrange your life to give yourself another year, it won't be as big of a hassle as if you graduate from one of the schools you're waitlisted at with mega debt and no job prospects.

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Re: Waitlists Galore Oh My!

Post by GettingReady2010 » Fri Jul 09, 2010 1:16 am

SilverE2 wrote:DO NOT go to any of these schools. You will regret it! I can't be any more clear, the odds of securing a decent job in the foreseeable future are overwhelmingly against you if you choose to attend. I mean, there are people freaking turning down top 20 schools because they're not comfortable going to one at sticker and would rather retake next year and give themselves a chance to get money/a better school. These people are not crazy, and the fact that this is happening should give you pause. I can guarantee you, considering the current economic situation of the legal world, as much of a hassle as it would be to rearrange your life to give yourself another year, it won't be as big of a hassle as if you graduate from one of the schools you're waitlisted at with mega debt and no job prospects.
You're assuming that you know exactly what OP wants to do. How do you know OP does not want to be a public defender or something?

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Re: Waitlists Galore Oh My!

Post by Grizz » Fri Jul 09, 2010 1:23 am

GettingReady2010 wrote:
SilverE2 wrote:DO NOT go to any of these schools. You will regret it! I can't be any more clear, the odds of securing a decent job in the foreseeable future are overwhelmingly against you if you choose to attend. I mean, there are people freaking turning down top 20 schools because they're not comfortable going to one at sticker and would rather retake next year and give themselves a chance to get money/a better school. These people are not crazy, and the fact that this is happening should give you pause. I can guarantee you, considering the current economic situation of the legal world, as much of a hassle as it would be to rearrange your life to give yourself another year, it won't be as big of a hassle as if you graduate from one of the schools you're waitlisted at with mega debt and no job prospects.
You're assuming that you know exactly what OP wants to do. How do you know OP does not want to be a public defender or something?
The assumption is that the chance of landing a PD job from these schools justifies the debt and risk. I don't think it is. Is the PD office even hiring with CA and many local govts. almost broke? And kids from more prestigious schools are also gunning for these positions.

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Re: Waitlists Galore Oh My!

Post by GettingReady2010 » Fri Jul 09, 2010 1:26 am

rad law wrote:
GettingReady2010 wrote:
SilverE2 wrote:DO NOT go to any of these schools. You will regret it! I can't be any more clear, the odds of securing a decent job in the foreseeable future are overwhelmingly against you if you choose to attend. I mean, there are people freaking turning down top 20 schools because they're not comfortable going to one at sticker and would rather retake next year and give themselves a chance to get money/a better school. These people are not crazy, and the fact that this is happening should give you pause. I can guarantee you, considering the current economic situation of the legal world, as much of a hassle as it would be to rearrange your life to give yourself another year, it won't be as big of a hassle as if you graduate from one of the schools you're waitlisted at with mega debt and no job prospects.
You're assuming that you know exactly what OP wants to do. How do you know OP does not want to be a public defender or something?
The assumption is that the chance of landing a PD job from these schools justifies the debt and risk. I don't think it is. Is the PD office even hiring with CA and many local govts. almost broke? And kids from more prestigious schools are also gunning for these positions.
You're assuming that the economy is going to stay the way it is. It could get much worse for all I know, but it could also get better. Also, I don't know where you live, but in my city the PD's office is stocked with grads from lower ranked schools with only the occasional grad from a top school.

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Re: Waitlists Galore Oh My!

Post by Grizz » Fri Jul 09, 2010 1:31 am

GettingReady2010 wrote: You're assuming that the economy is going to stay the way it is. It could get much worse for all I know, but it could also get better. Also, I don't know where you live, but in my city the PD's office is stocked with grads from lower ranked schools with only the occasional grad from a top school.
Banking on it staying the same is a decent bet. I wouldn't bet on it getting drasically better.

Same with my city, but they got hired years ago. Even hiring from last year to two years ago is drastically different from today. PD and SA (our DA) offices in my major metro area of FL are doing almost no hiring, last time I checked.

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

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