Please Vote/Comment!! Forum

[ncct07]

Salem, Oregon > Toledo, Ohio

[sneakpreview]

It seems strange to me that the U.S. World news salary numbers for Toledo are much higher than Willamette. Figured Toledo is a dying city, thought it would be the other way around...

[sneakpreview]

Does anyone know any current students at either school?

[robin600]

I know a few people at Toledo who graduated two years back and still don't have jobs.
Seriously defer for a year at Toledo, retest (even if you don't prep it's like a hail mary and you need it), and reassess. If you don't score higher Toledo it is and you've had a year to save up to put away for some of that 15k. If you do score higher REAPPLY!!!!!!! Even if you want to go to Willamette, you might get more money from them even with a one point increase! Think about it.

[sneakpreview]

I know a few people at Toledo who graduated two years back and still don't have jobs.
Seriously defer for a year at Toledo, retest (even if you don't prep it's like a hail mary and you need it), and reassess. If you don't score higher Toledo it is and you've had a year to save up to put away for some of that 15k. If you do score higher REAPPLY!!!!!!! Even if you want to go to Willamette, you might get more money from them even with a one point increase! Think about it.

I gave notice to my company in May, so it's either Willamette or Toledo.

[romothesavior]

What is your current location? And where are you from?

[sneakpreview]

What is your current location? And where are you from?

I'm originally from Tucson, Arizona. I have lived in San Diego for 12 years, went to college at the University of San Diego and got my MBA from San Diego State University. I currently work for one of the top 50 largest insurance brokerages in the U.S., it's just not exactly what I want to do long-term.

[romothesavior]

Your lack of connection to either market, the stipulations on the scholarships, and the placement of these schools (especially ITE) make both of them very dangerous choices.

If you are really set on going to law school at one of these two this fall and nothing can persuade you otherwise, then I guess go to Toledo because the stipulation is lower and the scholarship is higher (although I'd check out their grading scale). But you aren't going to find anyone on here who says you're making a good decision. Going from the west coast to Toledo for law school? Ummm... good luck.

[sneakpreview]

Romo, I agree with your point that most people on here think going to law school out of Tier 1 is silly.

I'm on waitlists at four Tier 3 schools that were Tier 2 last year. Willamette and Toledo are realistically the best schools I can get into. I had a 2.9 GPA in undergrad (graduated in 02), had a 3.4 in graduate school (which they don't look at), and did poorly on my LSAT (working full-time, I could only devote 3 hours a night for a few months, couldn't study all day like undergrads might be able to).

[CanadianWolf]

Have you made good connections within the insurance industry that could help secure employment after law school?
Assuming that your experience is primarily in property & casualty lines, then there should be many insurance defense firms that will give strong consideration to your application for employment once you pass a state bar exam. If you have any insurance industry degrees, such as CPCU, CLU, CIC, etc., that would enhance your credibility & employment options within the insurance industry & with insurance defense firms. If your experience lies on the health & life side, then there are employment options as an advanced underwriter or in the regulatory aspect of the business.
In your situation, passing a state bar exam & being admitted to a state bar is much more important than where you attend law school.
Many P&C insurance brokers make substantially more than most lawyers, if they own their own agencies. Although I don't know your actual experience, many insurance companies will consider contracting you & possibly financing your start up agency, if that is of interest to you. Don't be limited to working as an employee or independent contractor for a big brokerage house if you have strong people skills. product knowledge & selling skills because you can make a very high income with your own agency if you can contract with the right companies.

[sneakpreview]

Canadianwolf - I have about 5 years P&C experience as an account manager in commercial construction. My company is leaving the door open for a potential return to the risk and loss advisors division.

I do want transition out of this industry, which is where I'm having a tough time narrowing down a school.

[sneakpreview]

Your lack of connection to either market, the stipulations on the scholarships, and the placement of these schools (especially ITE) make both of them very dangerous choices.

If you are really set on going to law school at one of these two this fall and nothing can persuade you otherwise, then I guess go to Toledo because the stipulation is lower and the scholarship is higher (although I'd check out their grading scale). But you aren't going to find anyone on here who says you're making a good decision. Going from the west coast to Toledo for law school? Ummm... good luck.

I do have connections in Portland, but not exactly in the legal market (used to work for the Trail Blazers).

[romothesavior]

Did you try getting the stipulations removed? Going to either of these schools, especially at sticker, is baaaaaaad news.

[Scallywaggums]

Type of Employment Median Salary
Private Practice $60,000
Government $58,000
Judicial Clerkships $42,000
Business $55,000
Public Interest $20,000-50,000


$20,000-$60,000 salary + $80,000 debt from Willamette = paying off your debt until you're 80

$20,000-$60,000 salary + $15,000 debt from Toledo = much more reasonable

I was hoping someone would comment on this regarding % of class responding, including % of these jobs which are in law, so I wouldn't have to out myself as lazy, but no such luck. I actually went to the Willamette website, but this information wasn't exactly jumping out at me (not saying it isn't available).

Sorry I can't provide any insight OP, but I suggest you look into not only the medians, but also the % of class reporting & % who found legal jobs, for both schools. In the event that you can't find this information, ya might not wanna go to either with scholly stipulations.

[bk1]

Retaking is not an option at this point. I spent all of last summer studying (including a class), and took about 40 practice tests under timed conditions.

and did poorly on my LSAT (working full-time, I could only devote 3 hours a night for a few months, couldn't study all day like undergrads might be able to).

These don't seem consistent to me.

[sneakpreview]

Retaking is not an option at this point. I spent all of last summer studying (including a class), and took about 40 practice tests under timed conditions.

and did poorly on my LSAT (working full-time, I could only devote 3 hours a night for a few months, couldn't study all day like undergrads might be able to).

These don't seem consistent to me.

I did timed sections for about a month. I then took a practice test and would review the answers (right and wrong) the following day, so about 3 hours a day. I'm 29 and work a corporate job, so I couldn't devote the same number of hours as an undergrad would.

[romothesavior]

Retaking is not an option at this point. I spent all of last summer studying (including a class), and took about 40 practice tests under timed conditions.

and did poorly on my LSAT (working full-time, I could only devote 3 hours a night for a few months, couldn't study all day like undergrads might be able to).

These don't seem consistent to me.

I did timed sections for about a month. I then took a practice test and would review the answers (right and wrong) the following day, so about 3 hours a day. I'm 29 and work a corporate job, so I couldn't devote the same number of hours as an undergrad would.

I think 3 hours is about standard. I'm an undergrad and that's about what I did, and if I had much more per day I would have burned out. But if PTs was all you did to study, then you definitely didn't study right. You gotta study smarter, not longer.

Anyways... odds are significantly against this ending well, but good luck with whichever school you choose.

[sneakpreview]

Romo - appreciate your thoughts.

I have zero debt from undergrad or graduate school, so I don't think this is as disastrous as people make it out to be. If I was aiming for big law or huge dollars, then that would be dead on. With my work experience, I think a law degree (regardless of school pedigree) will be an asset. $75k in debt would appear to be a really small investment...

[deadpanic]

Toledo, as long as you are fine with living in the Toledo area & making 30-40K 9 months after graduation. Williamette will be the same except much more debt.

Law degrees from these places are not going to open up anymore new doors. They actually might close some. To me it doesn't sound like you want to be a lawyer either, you want some unrealistic entertainment/badass law, which you definitely will never get from these two schools.

Sorry, but this is the brutal truth. You are not going to become Chip Kelly's agent because you worked in the insurance industry & another law student didn't. Good luck in whatever you choose.

[sneakpreview]

Toledo, as long as you are fine with living in the Toledo area & making 30-40K 9 months after graduation. Williamette will be the same except much more debt.

Law degrees from these places are not going to open up anymore new doors. They actually might close some. To me it doesn't sound like you want to be a lawyer either, you want some unrealistic entertainment/badass law, which you definitely will never get from these two schools.

Sorry, but this is the brutal truth. You are not going to become Chip Kelly's agent because you worked in the insurance industry & another law student didn't. Good luck in whatever you choose.

Just out of curiosity, where are you guys seeing $20-$30k? According to US News, the 25-75 percentile private salary ranges are $45-76k for Willamette and $55-105K for Toledo. Even the average starting salary for the private sector is in the 40's...am I missing something?

[romothesavior]

Just out of curiosity, where are you guys seeing $20-$30k? According to US News, the 25-75 percentile private salary ranges are $45-76k for Willamette and $55-105K for Toledo. Even the average starting salary for the private sector is in the 40's...am I missing something?

Employment statistics are very shady and misrepresent reality, especially at lower ranked schools. At lower ranked schools, the median numbers usually include very, very small percentages of the total number of students. It happens at higher ranked schools too to some degree, but the lower ranked ones are really bad about this.

Read the article posted in this thread, as well as the thread itself, for more details:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 2&t=114338