Which Florida Law school to go to? Forum

[Lomax]

Care to list employment and bar passage statistics before we all agree on it?

I am filing a restraining order. Seriously.

In case you failed to make the connection (which you obviously did), those are employment statistics. As good of ones as you'll find, anyway. The ones that Florida schools publish are grossly manipulated, with not nearly enough graduates reporting. Bar passage statistics don't necessarily say anything about how well a school is respected or how likely the school is to get its graduates work, except for, sometimes, in cases on either extreme - cases in which a school has a ridiculously high passage rate (more rarely) or a ridiculously low one (more frequently).

[darknightbegins]

Care to list employment and bar passage statistics before we all agree on it?

I am filing a restraining order. Seriously.

In case you failed to make the connection (which you obviously did), those are employment statistics. As good of ones as you'll find, anyway. The ones that Florida schools publish are grossly manipulated, with not nearly enough graduates reporting. Bar passage statistics don't necessarily say anything about how well a school is respected or how likely the school is to get its graduates work, except for, sometimes, in cases on either extreme - cases in which a school has a ridiculously high passage rate (more rarely) or a ridiculously low one (more frequently).

Those are less than complete employment statistics that you listed. Its alright though, you don't have to list school published bar passage or employment statistics.

[Lomax]

Those are less than complete employment statistics that you listed. Its alright though, you don't have to list school published bar passage or employment statistics.

"Less complete"? How do figure that? Certainly, they are more accurate and useful, in large part due to their having not been manipulated. Anyway, thank you for your permission. And I didn't even have to ask...

[spearnreel]

The ones that Florida schools publish are grossly manipulated, with not nearly enough graduates reporting. Bar passage statistics don't necessarily say anything about how well a school is respected or how likely the school is to get its graduates work

And those OCI numbers "don't necessarily say anything about how well a school is respected or how likely the school is to get its graduates work". It doesn't matter if every firm holds an OCI at UF...no one is hiring. That alone should deter you from persuing a legal career, that and your issue with spewing out meaningless data.

[Lomax]

The ones that Florida schools publish are grossly manipulated, with not nearly enough graduates reporting. Bar passage statistics don't necessarily say anything about how well a school is respected or how likely the school is to get its graduates work

And those OCI numbers "don't necessarily say anything about how well a school is respected or how likely the school is to get its graduates work". It doesn't matter if every firm holds an OCI at UF...no one is hiring. That alone should deter you from persuing a legal career, that and your issue with spewing out meaningless data.

You are a troll. Do you honestly think that firms are paying reps to conduct interviews to waste candidates' time and make law schools feel good about themselves? We all know that hiring is down, as indicated by the OCI numbers, which are correspondingly down. While OCI numbers are do not necessarily correlate exactly with job offers, they certainly do qualify as meaningful data. For you to say "no one is hiring" and slam the door shut on everyone's aspirations of entering the field of law is ridiculous. It may be more difficult to become a lawyer these days, but it is definitely not impossible.

[keg411]

Your friend is basing his opinion on what? "From what he has seen"? Or maybe blind rage, because someone at UF didn't give him everything he asked for? Look, here are some cold, hard facts. Data, if you will. The most recent OCI numbers from each seemingly potentially worthwhile Florida school are as follows:

UF: 40 employers
UM: 30 employers
FSU: 26 employers
Stetson: 9 employers
Nova: 9 employers
FIU: 7 employers

(Source: --LinkRemoved--)

Maybe now we can all believe that UF is the best-respected law school in Florida (yes, even better than FSU), and perhaps even the one most likely to get its graduates work, despite the best efforts of some disgruntled noisemakers?

My friend went to UF Law School, graduate in the top 1% of his class (he went because it was in-state and cheap and his LSAT wasn't super high or anything to get him into a higher school), got a $125k-ish job in Tampa and despised the school and thought the professors were terrible and that everyone thought it was so wonderful, but he did not think it was. He is currently employed (at a smaller firm; "BigLaw" did not agree with him so he quit and got a PI job), but from his actual experience in the legal profession in Florida, he has found UF to be very overrated and not a friendly atmosphere and found that the employers in his market did not have as strong of a preference for UF grads as he initally thought based on how the school promotes itself (they don't care much between UF/FSU/Stetson).

BTW, no one is getting jobs through OCI in Florida right now. Everyone I know currently in school (including a different friend at UF and a friend at UM) are getting jobs through networking (if they are getting jobs). Even if the employers are coming, they aren't hiring. But "not hiring through OCI" doesn't mean that you shouldn't go into Law. There is life outside OCI (says my LSU 3L friend who scored a small firm job in ATX).

[Drew2010]

From doing some research on the Miami legal market it does seem that UMiami has a pretty significant advantage over Stetson in Miami. Of course this could be partially self-selection, but I think it is probably also a reflection that Miami has a better reputation in Miami than Stetson. So given your question, which was where you should go if you don't get accepted to UF or FSU, I'd say it depends on your interest in Miami. If you want to end up in Miami enough to be willing to shell out the extra money then it probably is a good choice over the $$ at Stetson. However if you don't feel strongly enough to spend that extra money/debt then Stetson probably wouldn't be a bad choice. There are a bunch of small to medium sized cities on the west coast of FL with decent starting salaries ($80k+), and there is always Tampa and Orlando. Obviously the legal market isn't great, but I think by the time we get to OCI it will most likely be better than it was this past summer, although obviously not back to the way it was. I have no idea what class rank you will need to get jobs out of any of these schools, in any of these cities, but that is information no one is going to be able to give you. That is information that you couldn't reliably get even if a changing economy weren't a factor.

Edit: Just wanted to add the caveat that my advice applies as long as you have realistic expectations about what type of employment you're going to get after school. If you've already got your sights set on biglaw, and are already checking out Boies Schiller, Weil, and White and Cases' websites, then you may be making a pretty serious mistake going to law school in FL. However if your expectations are realistic I've met plenty of attorneys in Southwest FL working small to midlaw who live a pretty nice lifestyle, including some rather young recent grads. By nice lifestyle I don't mean rich, but rather just lives that I think make their choice to go into law a good decision.

[Lomax]

My friend went to UF Law School, graduate in the top 1% of his class (he went because it was in-state and cheap and his LSAT wasn't super high or anything to get him into a higher school), got a $125k-ish job in Tampa and despised the school and thought the professors were terrible and that everyone thought it was so wonderful, but he did not think it was. He is currently employed (at a smaller firm; "BigLaw" did not agree with him so he quit and got a PI job), but from his actual experience in the legal profession in Florida, he has found UF to be very overrated and not a friendly atmosphere and found that the employers in his market did not have as strong of a preference for UF grads as he initally thought based on how the school promotes itself (they don't care much between UF/FSU/Stetson).

BTW, no one is getting jobs through OCI in Florida right now. Everyone I know currently in school (including a different friend at UF and a friend at UM) are getting jobs through networking (if they are getting jobs). Even if the employers are coming, they aren't hiring. But "not hiring through OCI" doesn't mean that you shouldn't go into Law. There is life outside OCI (says my LSU 3L friend who scored a small firm job in ATX).

Thanks for that information - there is certainly some useful insight there. You have pretty much confirmed my suspicion of this friend of yours being biased against UF, however. We can't very well trust the opinion he conveys of what others think of UF when he thinks so little of it himself. Furthermore, his knowledge of employer preferences is limited, and his assessment should not be considered necessarily accurate.

As for OCI - good point about it not being the end-all. But also, we should remember that your friends are a small sample, and we should not assume that nobody is hired through OCI at present just because these friends of yours were luckless or gave bad impressions.

[mrm2083]

Practicing in South Florida I would say UF,FSU,UM or bust with UF and UM being the best ones. In Miami no ones going to know what the hell Stetson is and have you guys ever seen the Nova commercials on TV? It's embarrassing they play the Wannado City song (for those who don't know what that is, it's a children's "theme park" where kids dress up as cops, doctors, firefighters, etc. and they have commercials with a song that goes "do what you wanna do", anyways Nova uses the same song). With no money I would take UF or FSU but with money from UM I think its a super nice school and Miami is a great place to live.

[Drew2010]

I have currently been accepted to Stetson (with a half tuition scholarship), Nova (with half tuition), and Miami Law. I am still waiting to hear from UF and FSU.

My question is: If I do not get in to UF or FSU, which of the above three would be my better option? I know that Miami is ranked much higher than Nova and Stetson, but these 2 schools did give me scholarships and attending would be more cost efficient. I know each school has its own thing to offer and I have been doing research, but in the end, which would be best to go to? (That is if I dont get in to one of the public schools) I have been reading that Stetson should be ranked because it is afterall a great school, but that it is regional and I dont know if i want to stay in Tampa (I have lived there half of my life) and I want to eventually move and practice law in South Florida.

Thanks

Practicing in South Florida I would say UF,FSU,UM or bust with UF and UM being the best ones. In Miami no ones going to know what the hell Stetson is and have you guys ever seen the Nova commercials on TV? It's embarrassing they play the Wannado City song (for those who don't know what that is, it's a children's "theme park" where kids dress up as cops, doctors, firefighters, etc. and they have commercials with a song that goes "do what you wanna do", anyways Nova uses the same song). With no money I would take UF or FSU but with money from UM I think its a super nice school and Miami is a great place to live.

That seems like a pretty terrible answer to the original question. The idea that no one is going recognize Stetson is silly, while it isn't nearly on the same level as the U in Miami, people at least know about it.

[Drew2010]

I have currently been accepted to Stetson (with a half tuition scholarship), Nova (with half tuition), and Miami Law. I am still waiting to hear from UF and FSU.

My question is: If I do not get in to UF or FSU, which of the above three would be my better option? I know that Miami is ranked much higher than Nova and Stetson, but these 2 schools did give me scholarships and attending would be more cost efficient. I know each school has its own thing to offer and I have been doing research, but in the end, which would be best to go to? (That is if I dont get in to one of the public schools) I have been reading that Stetson should be ranked because it is afterall a great school, but that it is regional and I dont know if i want to stay in Tampa (I have lived there half of my life) and I want to eventually move and practice law in South Florida.

Thanks

For my thoughts (and those of many others), look here: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=107809 and here: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=104198

Bottom line: University of Florida. Poll on second link seems to agree.

Lomax man you and I have been all over these FL threads today. There was a thread partly about Stetson recently that I thought you were gonna be all over, too.

Seriously. You'd think people would learn how to use the search function and save us the trouble. I consider this my one great public service project. Save some people from shooting themselves in the foot. Of course, neither of us is any expert, but we can act the part well enough, can't we?

This may be the worst, and most useless, answer to the OP's question, making the search function comment rather amusing.

[Tuyarp]

Out of curiosity, are you planning to attend UF, Lomax?

[minuit]

Out of curiosity, are you planning to attend UF, Lomax?

LOL

[Lomax]

For my thoughts (and those of many others), look here: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=107809 and here: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=104198

Bottom line: University of Florida. Poll on second link seems to agree.

Lomax man you and I have been all over these FL threads today. There was a thread partly about Stetson recently that I thought you were gonna be all over, too.

Seriously. You'd think people would learn how to use the search function and save us the trouble. I consider this my one great public service project. Save some people from shooting themselves in the foot. Of course, neither of us is any expert, but we can act the part well enough, can't we?

This may be the worst, and most useless, answer to the OP's question, making the search function comment rather amusing.

You should consider a career with Fox News, Drew2010. I've made maybe 20 other helpful, informative, evidenced posts on this thread, yet you choose this one as my "answer to the OP's question". Nice. Even better, I wasn't referring to OP's question in the post in question.

Out of curiosity, are you planning to attend UF, Lomax?

Not necessarily. What could be my first choice has me on faculty committee review, at least for the next day or two.

[Drew2010]

You should consider a career with Fox News, Drew2010. I've made maybe 20 other helpful, informative, evidenced posts on this thread, yet you choose this one as my "answer to the OP's question". Nice. Even better, I wasn't referring to OP's question in the post in question.

I chose your first post.. the rest were admittedly not as bad, but I wouldn't say they were incredibly helpful. I'll agree to disagree with you regarding UF being as dominant as people like to assume.

[Lomax]

You should consider a career with Fox News, Drew2010. I've made maybe 20 other helpful, informative, evidenced posts on this thread, yet you choose this one as my "answer to the OP's question". Nice. Even better, I wasn't referring to OP's question in the post in question.

I chose your first post.. the rest were admittedly not as bad, but I wouldn't say they were incredibly helpful. I'll agree to disagree with you regarding UF being as dominant as people like to assume.

Ha, sure. I guess logical reasoning backed by hard facts, data, numbers and the like just isn't your thing. Maybe testimony is more to your liking. See below.

Another 1L UF law student here - if anyone has any questions - about anything, feel free to ask, or PM me!

Is there any reason to believe, as far as you know, that the University of Miami would place the average student better in South Florida than UF would? Are you pleased with your choice of UF? Are others you know pleased with their choice of UF?

I have already objectively decided that UF is the best choice in Florida in all but a few rare situations, but your answering these questions will likely put to rest (or confirm) the fears of others.

UM do not place better than UF anywhere. Period. It may seem that it places better in Miami, but it's only because Um is in Miami and 80% student stay there, while UF class spread all over Florida and some go out of state (primarily Atlanta and DC). What UM provides and it is hands down, it's convenience to set up interviews and network in Miami. But it's only in regard of Miami. Once you go further North - Ft Lauderdale, Boca, Palm Beach, Orlando, etc - the UF degree will do much better job for you.
I myself considered over 10 schools instate and out-state when I applied last year.
The pros of my chose of UF - still the best regarded school ion the state, among the cheapest (in-state) tuition you can still find in the country, very law COL, great faculty, huge library, not too competitive students.
Cons - law school is in fact really tough (but it's true of any school, so I shouldn't be saying it), facilities is not too fancy (our cafeteria is a joke!, but it is a state school and it has limited financing compare to Miami or Stetson), Gainesville is extremely boring if you are over 25 and moved from a big city. On the other had, you don't have that much time to go out your first year anyway.
I have not yet heard ONE person in my law school who would regret choosing UF. There is still no equal competitor to it in FL.

[Tuyarp]

Not necessarily. What could be first choice has me on faculty committee review, at least for the next day or two.

What about UW? By the way, good luck with Berk.

[Aberzombie1892]

Regardless of anything, UM and UF place equally well in "Big Law."

True I would suggest UF over UM, but only because it's cheaper.

But that is the only reason.

I don't understand how people can say that UM is only good for the southern half of Florida or how they can say FSU is better than UM.

Yes FSU is ranked higher, but it places about half as many people from their class in "Big Law" as UM.

I saw someone quoted OCI numbers somewhere else in this thread.

The number of firms/offices that come to OCI isn't worth the paper it's printed on.

I.e. U of Texas and Fordham have a higher number of OCI firms/offices than Cornell does.

Would anyone wanting to work anywhere in the US, who wasn't from Texas, take UT or Fordham over Cornell with no scholarship?

No reasonable person would.

Florida: UF=UM>FSU

/thread

[Lomax]

I saw someone quoted OCI numbers somewhere else in this thread.

The number of firms/offices that come to OCI isn't worth the paper it's printed on.

I.e. U of Texas and Fordham have a higher number of OCI firms/offices than Cornell does.

Would anyone wanting to work anywhere in the US, who wasn't from Texas, take UT or Fordham over Cornell with no scholarship?

We aren't talking about people wanting to work anywhere in the US here. And yes, it would probably be advisable to take UT over Cornell should one desire to work in Texas. Stop trying to exclude valid arguments because you don't like how they might contradict your rigid, uninformed opinion. The OCI numbers stand.

[Aberzombie1892]

I saw someone quoted OCI numbers somewhere else in this thread.

The number of firms/offices that come to OCI isn't worth the paper it's printed on.

I.e. U of Texas and Fordham have a higher number of OCI firms/offices than Cornell does.

Would anyone wanting to work anywhere in the US, who wasn't from Texas, take UT or Fordham over Cornell with no scholarship?

We aren't talking about people wanting to work anywhere in the US here. And yes, it would probably be advisable to take UT over Cornell should one desire to work in Texas. Stop trying to exclude valid arguments because you don't like how they might contradict your rigid, uninformed opinion. The OCI numbers stand.

Gosh don't get your panties in a bunch.

Well if that is the case why don't people take Fordham over Cornell? It has more employers at OCI...That conclusion would follow your reasoning. Heck why not replace Cornell with Fordham in the T14?

Let's say it made a difference, and you were right. Do you think 10 firms/offices really makes a difference? No.

You are a hardcore UF guy and that's fine. But just because you feel strongly about the school doesn't mean that you should knock it's rival UM.

I mean I would recommend UF over UM due to tuition. But if those three schools were free, or equivalent in price, UF=UM>FSU.

[Lomax]

Not necessarily. What could be first choice has me on faculty committee review, at least for the next day or two.

What about UW? By the way, good luck with Berk.

Thanks. I was less sure of where I wanted to live at the start of the cycle, and the Pacific Northwest was one of my top choices. Now I'm not sure if I can take 40s and rain long-term, and don't want to pay sticker versus practically nothing at UF with that in mind, even if UW would offer me slightly better employment prospects. Similar goes for GW, except in its case sticker is a lot more, plus crazy living expenses. I figure that only UC Berkeley would offer enough of an advantage in terms of boosting my chances of securing a decent job to justify paying full price. Of course, even it might not.

[jerzgrl630]

I saw someone quoted OCI numbers somewhere else in this thread.

The number of firms/offices that come to OCI isn't worth the paper it's printed on.

I.e. U of Texas and Fordham have a higher number of OCI firms/offices than Cornell does.

Would anyone wanting to work anywhere in the US, who wasn't from Texas, take UT or Fordham over Cornell with no scholarship?

We aren't talking about people wanting to work anywhere in the US here. And yes, it would probably be advisable to take UT over Cornell should one desire to work in Texas. Stop trying to exclude valid arguments because you don't like how they might contradict your rigid, uninformed opinion. The OCI numbers stand.

Sorry, this thread was too amusing for me to stay out of it. Lomax, I know this is hard to believe but just because an employer does OCI on a campus doesn't mean they have to hire anyone from that school. This is why it's called an interview process. A firm can do OCI on 5 campuses, interview 20 candidates, and only have spots for 2 summer associates. While the number of firms doing OCI is definitely important to consider, the difference between UF and UM is kind of marginal when you consider the slaughter that is the Florida legal market.

[Lomax]

Gosh don't get you panties in a bunch.

Well if that is the case why don't people take Fordham over Cornell? It has more employers at OCI...That conclusion would follow your reasoning. Heck why not replace Cornell with Fordham in the T14?

My panties are never in a bunch. Everyone else's are.

Fordham graduating class: around 500 students. Cornell's graduating class: around 200 students. Fewer students = fewer interviewers. Get it?

Let's say it made a difference, and you were right. Do you think 10 firms/offices really makes a difference? No.

I am right, and 10 firms does make a difference. Why? Because in this case, 10 firms equates to a third more interviewers than UM. A third more employers are interested in UF grads than in UM grads, at least enough to send reps on campus. It isn't that much of a stretch to say that that can probably be extrapolated to a reasonable degree to the market as a whole.

Sorry, this thread was too amusing for me to stay out of it. Lomax, I know this is hard to believe but just because an employer does OCI on a campus doesn't mean they have to hire anyone from that school. This is why it's called an interview process. A firm can do OCI on 5 campuses, interview 20 candidates, and only have spots for 2 summer associates. While the number of firms doing OCI is definitely important to consider, the difference between UF and UM is kind of marginal when you consider the slaughter that is the Florida legal market.

REALLY?! I NEVER would have guessed! But... But... Wait! That doesn't mean that firms aren't showing making a special statement of interest in a school and at least giving its students exclusive preference/opportunity to secure a job by choosing to do OCI at that school and not do OCI at the others, does it, jerzgrl630? But I really wouldn't know about that myself - after all I'm just an ignoramus that you can jump into a thread you know nothing about and talk down to on a topic you haven't actually fully considered, aren't I? A third is a difference that could hardly be described as "kind of marginal". "The slaughter that is the Florida legal market" forces one to consider his or her choice of law school even more carefully, as competition for jobs is greater and things like school prestige, OCI, and alumni base might come into play more than ever before. Next time you find a thread too amusing for you to stay out of it, jerzgrl360, perhaps you should either take the time to really see what's going on, or think twice and stay out.

You are a hardcore UF guy and that's fine. But just because you feel strongly about the school doesn't mean that you should knock it's rival UM.

I'm really not. I just see a lot of people holding completely baseless "opinions" on this matter, and I see those same individuals spitting out so many logical fallacies at the peril of others who are innocently trying to make their law school decision that I feel obligated to respond. I have nothing against UM, FSU, Stetson, etc., or anyone wishing to go to any of those schools. I just wish that people choosing to go to those other schools over UF would be fully informed of the disadvantageous position they are likely putting themselves in as a result. I have taken it upon myself to inform them here. Others, such as yourself, ill-advisably throw around worthless "opinions" to the contrary, usually formulated after a quick glance at the TLS profile pages and a mental picture of South Beach. By doing so, you help no-one and only confuse the honest and needy.

[Aberzombie1892]

Gosh don't get you panties in a bunch.

Well if that is the case why don't people take Fordham over Cornell? It has more employers at OCI...That conclusion would follow your reasoning. Heck why not replace Cornell with Fordham in the T14?

My panties are never in a bunch. Everyone else's are.

Fordham graduating class: around 500 students. Cornell's graduating class: around 200 students. Fewer students = fewer interviewers. Get it?

Let's say it made a difference, and you were right. Do you think 10 firms/offices really makes a difference? No.

I am right, and 10 firms does make a difference. Why? Because in this case, 10 firms equates to a third more interviewers than UM. A third more employers are interested in UF grads than in UM grads, at least enough to send reps on campus. It isn't that much of a stretch to say that that can probably be extrapolated to a reasonable degree to the market as a whole.

Sorry, this thread was too amusing for me to stay out of it. Lomax, I know this is hard to believe but just because an employer does OCI on a campus doesn't mean they have to hire anyone from that school. This is why it's called an interview process. A firm can do OCI on 5 campuses, interview 20 candidates, and only have spots for 2 summer associates. While the number of firms doing OCI is definitely important to consider, the difference between UF and UM is kind of marginal when you consider the slaughter that is the Florida legal market.

REALLY?! I NEVER would have guessed! But... But... Wait! That doesn't mean that firms aren't showing making a special statement of interest in a school and at least giving its students exclusive preference/opportunity to secure a job by choosing to do OCI at that school and not do OCI at the others, does it, jerzgrl630? But I really wouldn't know about that myself - after all I'm just an ignoramus that you can jump into a thread you know nothing about and talk down to on a topic you haven't actually fully considered, aren't I? A third is a difference that could hardly be described as "kind of marginal". "The slaughter that is the Florida legal market" forces one to consider his or her choice of law school even more carefully, as competition for jobs is greater and things like school prestige, OCI, and alumni base might come into play more than ever before. Next time you find a thread too amusing for you to stay out of it, jerzgrl360, perhaps you should either take the time to really see what's going on, or think twice and stay out.

You are a hardcore UF guy and that's fine. But just because you feel strongly about the school doesn't mean that you should knock it's rival UM.

I'm really not. I just see a lot of people holding completely baseless "opinions" on this matter, and I see those same individuals spitting out so many logical fallacies at the peril of others who are innocently trying to make their law school decision that I feel obligated to respond. I have nothing against UM, FSU, Stetson, etc., or anyone wishing to go to any of those schools. I just wish that people choosing to go to those other schools over UF would be fully informed of the disadvantageous position they are likely putting themselves in as a result. I have taken it upon myself to inform them here. Others, such as yourself, ill-advisably throw around worthless "opinions" to the contrary, usually formulated after a quick glance at the TLS profile pages and a mental picture of South Beach. By doing so, you help no-one and only confuse the honest and needy.

I'm surprised that you never rebutted one of my earlier assumptions.

UM=UF in big law placement (in 2005).

Neither one of them has shifted much, rank wise, so there is no reason to assume they have not moved in step with each other since then (with FSU placing half as many as them).

Since that is a fact, isn't everything that you are saying just an assumption that UF is better?

True 10 more employers come to UF, but that doesn't result in better employment outcomes.

Isn't better employment outcomes the entire point of having more employers show up?

But honestly, someone here is being far too sensitive about something that they apparently know relatively little about.

(here's a hint, it's not jerzgrl630)

[spearnreel]

My panties are never in a bunch. Everyone else's are.