Fordham Waiting Room Forum

[tesoro]

well the PT professors are the same at the FT ones, plus you wouldn't have to work during the day. PT is cheaper and since you take one less class per semester, you get to put more effort into each class. They say first year is the hardest so I actually like the idea of taking the 1L a littler slower and making sure I build a solid GPA.

I love how you think, H.E.

I think this idea makes sense in theory, but I'm not sure how it would play out. I want to be able to focus solely on law school as well, but I would feel that if I were only attending classes part-time, that I should have a part-time job, internship, or something else as well. I'm also not sure how employers view part-time students who are only taking classes. That's not to say that it's a good idea to focus solely on schol and wreck the curve for everybody else. I'm just not sure how any and all employers would view that, be they biglaw, midlaw, government, etc. Anyone have some insight?

As a 0L, my insight is limited, but for what it's worth:

Employers will know that you attended a PT program simply by looking at your transcript and noting only 12 or less credits were taken in a semester. This is not necessarily going to stigmatize you.

However, when choosing to attend a PT program, keep in the back of your mind that during a callback interview, you will be asked: Why did you choose to attend law school as a part-time student?

Do you have a good answer? And when I say good answer, I mean, you need to put yourself in the employer's shoes. An employer is looking to hire someone who will maximize profit at his or her place of business. If the answer is, to really make sure I have the time to get A's, you might be in trouble. If you're in a rock band and you need your Fridays to play gigs, or if you ski competitively and need long weekends to attend competitions, or if you're gaining experiences as a paralegal, or if you're prosecuting patents as an agent... these might all be good reasons and stories that will add to your interview. The list certainly doesn't stop here - these are just examples.

I'm not here to judge what you do with the time you would save by not going FT. Your employer is, though. Make sure your reasons would not reflect negatively on you if judged by a partner at a law firm. Just my 2 cents.

edit: PT is not cheaper. If you transfer to FT after your 1L year, you'll make up the tuition over the summer. If you take your courses over a 4-year span (my plan), PT becomes more expensive because of the additional year paying COL expenses in NYC without your presumed BigLaw lawyer salary.

[nygrrrl]

Tesoro, will you be working? I'm in a profession where I can cut my hours down to about 20/wk, plus lots from home/telecommuting, so that's my plan.
Love your response, btw. In all honesty, I had not thought about that at all (because I have no choice but PT!)

[rockthelaw]

Tesoro, that's pretty much what I was thinking. You are wise, my friend.

I like the idea of needing Friday nights off for gigging. Brilliant! Who wants to start a 1L Fordham PT rock band? Study and practice by day, go to class and rock by night! Anyone from an experienced drummer to a novice cowbell player is welcome!

[tesoro]

Tesoro, will you be working? I'm in a profession where I can cut my hours down to about 20/wk, plus lots from home/telecommuting, so that's my plan.
Love your response, btw. In all honesty, I had not thought about that at all (because I have no choice but PT!)

Yup I'll be working 40+ hours per week at a federal gov't job based in the greater DC area. But it's all remote work, minus a bi-monthly commute in (this is flexible, I can take leave to avoid coming in if it's not done on a regular basis). There's a good amount of downtime in my job where I can stop and read/outline for a few hours a day. I also have a ton of leave time built up and only need to give 3 days notice to use it, so as exams approach I can take time off as I need it.

It's not gonna be easy, but the experience I'll gain will be invaluable (and the money isn't half bad either!).

[H. E. Pennypacker]

Yes, my plan is to transfer to FT after my first year, and I know the summer courses will make up the difference in $$. My overall point was that starting out PT can have it's advantages...you can do 15-20 hrs of wrk per week which will help defray the costs, and it can allow for a stronger GPA....sure employers will see that on your transcript, but as long as you don't bomb in your 2L and 3L year, I can't imagine they would really hold it agianst you. Maybe they will, I don't know. I don't mean to present it as a loophole in the system that one can take advantage of, just a positive way of looking at what maybe have been your plan B.

[tesoro]

Tesoro, that's pretty much what I was thinking. You are wise, my friend.

I like the idea of needing Friday nights off for gigging. Brilliant! Who wants to start a 1L Fordham PT rock band? Study and practice by day, go to class and rock by night! Anyone from an experienced drummer to a novice cowbell player is welcome!

hah count me in. I'll have to clean off the dust off of my guitar, though. It's been sitting in my parents' basement for about 4 years.

[LiveFree]

I've got a fever...and the only solution is more cowbell...

[nygrrrl]

Tesoro, that's pretty much what I was thinking. You are wise, my friend.

I like the idea of needing Friday nights off for gigging. Brilliant! Who wants to start a 1L Fordham PT rock band? Study and practice by day, go to class and rock by night! Anyone from an experienced drummer to a novice cowbell player is welcome!

hah count me in. I'll have to clean off the dust off of my guitar, though. It's been sitting in my parents' basement for about 4 years.

I can only play cowbell... but I can sing lead!

[H. E. Pennypacker]

I've got a fever...and the only [strike]solution[/strike] prescription is more cowbell...

[LiveFree]

I've got a fever...and the only [strike]solution[/strike] prescription is more cowbell...

So true. I should be shot for that.

[AlanShore]

Yes, my plan is to transfer to FT after my first year, and I know the summer courses will make up the difference in $$. My overall point was that starting out PT can have it's advantages...you can do 15-20 hrs of wrk per week which will help defray the costs, and it can allow for a stronger GPA....sure employers will see that on your transcript, but as long as you don't bomb in your 2L and 3L year, I can't imagine they would really hold it agianst you. Maybe they will, I don't know. I don't mean to present it as a loophole in the system that one can take advantage of, just a positive way of looking at what maybe have been your plan B.

Hey H.E.

do you know if PT people are ranked in the same pool with FT people?

[H. E. Pennypacker]

Yes, my plan is to transfer to FT after my first year, and I know the summer courses will make up the difference in $$. My overall point was that starting out PT can have it's advantages...you can do 15-20 hrs of wrk per week which will help defray the costs, and it can allow for a stronger GPA....sure employers will see that on your transcript, but as long as you don't bomb in your 2L and 3L year, I can't imagine they would really hold it agianst you. Maybe they will, I don't know. I don't mean to present it as a loophole in the system that one can take advantage of, just a positive way of looking at what maybe have been your plan B.

Hey H.E.

do you know if PT people are ranked in the same pool with FT people?

That's a good question, I don't know. I'm sure OS knows.

[tesoro]

Yes, my plan is to transfer to FT after my first year, and I know the summer courses will make up the difference in $$. My overall point was that starting out PT can have it's advantages...you can do 15-20 hrs of wrk per week which will help defray the costs, and it can allow for a stronger GPA....sure employers will see that on your transcript, but as long as you don't bomb in your 2L and 3L year, I can't imagine they would really hold it agianst you. Maybe they will, I don't know. I don't mean to present it as a loophole in the system that one can take advantage of, just a positive way of looking at what maybe have been your plan B.

It definitely has its advantages H.E. I wasn't meaning to debate that with you. I'm simply speculating that with advantages come disadvantages, one of which may be the furrowed brow of an employer trying to gauge whether your PT status was one of laziness or part of an overall, meaningful plan. It's all about how you paint the picture.

For me, PT fits a very clear and committed goal and fits in beautifully with my work. For you... well, I have no idea what your situation is. I'm not accusing you or anyone else of laziness. Really it's none of my business why you're doing what you're doing. My advice is just to make sure that whatever the reason is, it cannot be misinterpreted by an employer, or the advantages may become quickly negated.

[goosey]

Yes, my plan is to transfer to FT after my first year, and I know the summer courses will make up the difference in $$. My overall point was that starting out PT can have it's advantages...you can do 15-20 hrs of wrk per week which will help defray the costs, and it can allow for a stronger GPA....sure employers will see that on your transcript, but as long as you don't bomb in your 2L and 3L year, I can't imagine they would really hold it agianst you. Maybe they will, I don't know. I don't mean to present it as a loophole in the system that one can take advantage of, just a positive way of looking at what maybe have been your plan B.

It definitely has its advantages H.E. I wasn't meaning to debate that with you. I'm simply speculating that with advantages come disadvantages, one of which may be the furrowed brow of an employer trying to gauge whether your PT status was one of laziness or part of an overall, meaningful plan. It's all about how you paint the picture.

For me, PT fits a very clear and committed goal and fits in beautifully with my work. For you... well, I have no idea what your situation is. I'm not accusing you or anyone else of laziness. Really it's none of my business why you're doing what you're doing. My advice is just to make sure that whatever the reason is, it cannot be misinterpreted by an employer, or the advantages may become quickly negated.

I dont think anyone would look at it as "lazy" because all prospective employers have already gone through law school and the admission process, so they would understand that sometimes you can get in to pt at a higher ranked school and why not go to the best school you can get into. Also, laziness shows in grades, whether its 12 credits or 15. Somebody with a 3.6 in law school, whether its 12 credits or 15, is not lazy. So I really dont think that would be an issue at all. I understand you're not implying that ppl that go to pt are lazy, but I'm just clarifying that I dont think it will do anything to hurt employment

[H. E. Pennypacker]

well said, goosey

[rockthelaw]

So, the bottom line of this conversation is: FT or PT, you have to work hard, push yourself, and be all you can be.

Sounds like a combination of the army motto and my parent's nagging.

[ZXCVBNM]

Just finished first semester at Fordham in PT program with no job. To answer a few questions. First, if you do well (3.5 +) then the employer won't care really what you did while in PT program. You should be ready to answer the question but getting good grades is tough even in PT program and even if you have no job. FYI, 50% or more have no job in PT program. Either they started off w/o a job or quit b/c the workload, even for PT, is pretty intense. Also, as far as I can tell, the highest grades are split b/w working students and non-working students. Some people are better at law school than others. Not working will not guarantee high grades. Maybe above average grades...maybe....but not high. Also, PT and FT are grouped together for class rankings.

[Lolek]

Not to break up this FT/PT debate we're having, which is very informative on both sides btw...BUT:

I just updated my LSAC with my Fall Semester grades which upped my overall GPA slightly, my question is this:

Now that LSAC updated my Academic Report Summary, does Fordham get the update automatically or do I have to send them a new $12 report? If that's what I need to do, how do I do it?

Thanks in advance, again sorry to jump in like this!

[Cardboardbox]

These are all awesome perspectives on PT as is def. making me lean towards checking the PT box. One final question, what happens if you check the either box and you get accepted to FT? Does that mean you get offered PT too or FT is the only offer on the table?

[goosey]

Just finished first semester at Fordham in PT program with no job. To answer a few questions. First, if you do well (3.5 +) then the employer won't care really what you did while in PT program. You should be ready to answer the question but getting good grades is tough even in PT program and even if you have no job. FYI, 50% or more have no job in PT program. Either they started off w/o a job or quit b/c the workload, even for PT, is pretty intense. Also, as far as I can tell, the highest grades are split b/w working students and non-working students. Some people are better at law school than others. Not working will not guarantee high grades. Maybe above average grades...maybe....but not high. Also, PT and FT are grouped together for class rankings.

what do you think of working retail or something that is not a "real job" but simply a way to cover living expenses without having to take out loans? My plan was to work part-time as a pharmacy tech or something--they make about $20 an hour and its not something that follows you home afterwards. all your work is done *at* work. either that or macy's-->something dumb that wont require mental energy haha.

[rockthelaw]

ZXCVBNM, thanks for answering some of our questions!

[ZXCVBNM]

These are all awesome perspectives on PT as is def. making me lean towards checking the PT box. One final question, what happens if you check the either box and you get accepted to FT? Does that mean you get offered PT too or FT is the only offer on the table?

When I applied last year you had to decide which program, this year you can apply to both? If that's true and you're accepted FT I'm sure you can arrange to switch to PT, which is less competitive, as long as it's early enough.

[ZXCVBNM]

ZXCVBNM, thanks for answering some of our questions!

No problem. By the way, it's really an awesome school. Great professors, students, classes and career services. Location is hard to beat. The facilities aren't that great but its not a dump either. Plus Fordham has an AMAZING alumni network.

[tesoro]

Just finished first semester at Fordham in PT program with no job. To answer a few questions. First, if you do well (3.5 +) then the employer won't care really what you did while in PT program. You should be ready to answer the question but getting good grades is tough even in PT program and even if you have no job. FYI, 50% or more have no job in PT program. Either they started off w/o a job or quit b/c the workload, even for PT, is pretty intense. Also, as far as I can tell, the highest grades are split b/w working students and non-working students. Some people are better at law school than others. Not working will not guarantee high grades. Maybe above average grades...maybe....but not high. Also, PT and FT are grouped together for class rankings.

Thanks for the info-

It doesn't surprise me to hear that a significant chunk of the FT class isn't employed.

Goosey- I concur. 3.5+ isn't easily attainable, though. A median or below median student in PT who is unemployed might face harder scrutiny than a median student (or below) with a meaningful justification. I assume that the above poster is providing correct information - that more than half the PT class doesn't work (let's ballpark it at half, which is 80 people). Let's say a 3.5 is top 25% (i'm really not sure where a 3.5 falls, but I know it's well above median which I think was a 3.14 or 3.17 last I heard). Let's say that the above poster's observations are correct, and half of the unemployed PT students get high grades (40 students).

This means that 40 working students and 40 unemployed students are above median, and any 40 students of this pool make the top 25% of the class. The above poster's remarks lead me to believe that only 20 out of 80 unemployed PT students will score this mark.

Obviously, if you score well you'll impress an employer whether or not you're employed. The above analysis is just to paint the picture that this isn't something you can really bank on. 60 of 80 will be required to explain themselves. My initial post was just advise anyone who intends to focus fully on law school to be sure that you're prepared to do make this explanation. It's a bit foolish to assume outright that you'll score above the median in law school, because presumably you have very similar credentials as all of your classmates. Especially at Fordham, who's less likely to woo in high-credentialed candidates in with money.

e: when I say unemployed, I mean to include people doing things of note, like the rock bands and the competitive skiiers and whoever else as well.

[H. E. Pennypacker]

page 100!