Yale c/o 2020 Applicants (2016-2017) Forum

[notsonotorious]

UMM WAIT, so if I haven't heard back from Yale yet, I can accept the Ruby tomorrow and then potentially benefit from Yale ADMITS defecting by accepting the Ruby themselves? And I could be offered one of their spots or wait listed, after? Am I reading this right?

Yeah just accept the Ruby. Tbh, take the Ruby no matter what happens at Yale.

But....Harvard... :/

I'm curious, how many H/Y grads have to deal with crippling debt for long? Seems like the star power of going there would offset the additional debt you take on (versus a full ride at CCN), not to mention the LRAP programs.

Isn't that the perennial question?

FWIW my take is as follows:
- if you want to do big law, go to which ever school (if your choices are HYSCCN) you like best. Big law job prospects out of all of these schools are great and while the mental burden of carrying so much debt can be tough, you will almost certainly be able to pay it off or at least manage to have a decent lifestyle while paying your loans.
- if you want to do public interest, go to the most affordable option, unless you or your parents are rich. LRAP sounds tempting but from my reading of the fine print of these programs, they all have really funky rules which make you, essentially, a vassal. For example, you might not want to get married because your combined income and/or assets will suddenly be more than the LRAP max. Or, interestingly, while clerking and government work qualify for many LRAP programs, in many jurisdictions you will be above the LRAP max. My point is, read the fine print before you decide to ignore the future debt burden "because LRAP".

End.

[OneHandedEconomist]

UMM WAIT, so if I haven't heard back from Yale yet, I can accept the Ruby tomorrow and then potentially benefit from Yale ADMITS defecting by accepting the Ruby themselves? And I could be offered one of their spots or wait listed, after? Am I reading this right?

Yeah just accept the Ruby. Tbh, take the Ruby no matter what happens at Yale.

But....Harvard... :/

I'm curious, how many H/Y grads have to deal with crippling debt for long? Seems like the star power of going there would offset the additional debt you take on (versus a full ride at CCN), not to mention the LRAP programs.

Isn't that the perennial question?

FWIW my take is as follows:
- if you want to do big law, go to which ever school (if your choices are HYSCCN) you like best. Big law job prospects out of all of these schools are great and while the mental burden of carrying so much debt can be tough, you will almost certainly be able to pay it off or at least manage to have a decent lifestyle while paying your loans.
- if you want to do public interest, go to the most affordable option, unless you or your parents are rich. LRAP sounds tempting but from my reading of the fine print of these programs, they all have really funky rules which make you, essentially, a vassal. For example, you might not want to get married because your combined income and/or assets will suddenly be more than the LRAP max. Or, interestingly, while clerking and government work qualify for many LRAP programs, in many jurisdictions you will be above the LRAP max. My point is, read the fine print before you decide to ignore the future debt burden "because LRAP".

End.

Tbh for generic biglaw, I think Cornell for free>>>H on a discount. There just isn't really a difference.

Once you're gunning for prestigious PI, fed gov, clerking, etc., that's when I think it becomes a debate.

[NotPanicking]

UMM WAIT, so if I haven't heard back from Yale yet, I can accept the Ruby tomorrow and then potentially benefit from Yale ADMITS defecting by accepting the Ruby themselves? And I could be offered one of their spots or wait listed, after? Am I reading this right?

Yeah just accept the Ruby. Tbh, take the Ruby no matter what happens at Yale.

But....Harvard... :/

I'm curious, how many H/Y grads have to deal with crippling debt for long? Seems like the star power of going there would offset the additional debt you take on (versus a full ride at CCN), not to mention the LRAP programs.

Isn't that the perennial question?

FWIW my take is as follows:
- if you want to do big law, go to which ever school (if your choices are HYSCCN) you like best. Big law job prospects out of all of these schools are great and while the mental burden of carrying so much debt can be tough, you will almost certainly be able to pay it off or at least manage to have a decent lifestyle while paying your loans.
- if you want to do public interest, go to the most affordable option, unless you or your parents are rich. LRAP sounds tempting but from my reading of the fine print of these programs, they all have really funky rules which make you, essentially, a vassal. For example, you might not want to get married because your combined income and/or assets will suddenly be more than the LRAP max. Or, interestingly, while clerking and government work qualify for many LRAP programs, in many jurisdictions you will be above the LRAP max. My point is, read the fine print before you decide to ignore the future debt burden "because LRAP".

End.

Interesting. I've heard the opposite! Since chances at big law are comparable across HYSCCN, for that you should pick the school that offers you the most money, because even if you can pay off the debt, significant debt payments can have long term effects (retirement, home ownership, etc). The LRAP depends on the school, but I've scoured every LIPP-related link Harvard offers, and it's honestly pretty great. No min-10 year requirement for PI work, you can enter and leave whenever you like, and after a certain number of years out of law school they protect increasing percentages of your assets. Your "max" at Harvard would actually just depend on how much debt you had.

[seeprybyrun]

isn't NOT HAVING DEBT still, well, better

I wouldn't say so. Debt is useful precisely because it allows one to finance something that ends up being far more valuable than the initial investment.

Put another way, I would rather have a job paying $200,000/yr and be $100,000 in debt than be debt-free but only making $100,000/yr.

Granted, the actual numbers are different in the law school calculus; I chose the above numbers to demonstrate the principle I'm describing. If the typical job outcomes and salaries for HYS and CCN are the same, then of course it makes economic sense to take the Ruby at Chicago over sticker at Harvard (per my previous example, it's like we're now comparing $200k/yr and debt-free to $200k/yr and $100k in debt; of course the former is preferable).

Of course, that's also just assuming there's nothing to advantage HYS besides average job outcomes. I'm wondering whether there's extra opportunities or other value built into a HYS degree that makes it more valuable than pure income.

[notsonotorious]

UMM WAIT, so if I haven't heard back from Yale yet, I can accept the Ruby tomorrow and then potentially benefit from Yale ADMITS defecting by accepting the Ruby themselves? And I could be offered one of their spots or wait listed, after? Am I reading this right?

Yeah just accept the Ruby. Tbh, take the Ruby no matter what happens at Yale.

But....Harvard... :/

I'm curious, how many H/Y grads have to deal with crippling debt for long? Seems like the star power of going there would offset the additional debt you take on (versus a full ride at CCN), not to mention the LRAP programs.

Isn't that the perennial question?

FWIW my take is as follows:
- if you want to do big law, go to which ever school (if your choices are HYSCCN) you like best. Big law job prospects out of all of these schools are great and while the mental burden of carrying so much debt can be tough, you will almost certainly be able to pay it off or at least manage to have a decent lifestyle while paying your loans.
- if you want to do public interest, go to the most affordable option, unless you or your parents are rich. LRAP sounds tempting but from my reading of the fine print of these programs, they all have really funky rules which make you, essentially, a vassal. For example, you might not want to get married because your combined income and/or assets will suddenly be more than the LRAP max. Or, interestingly, while clerking and government work qualify for many LRAP programs, in many jurisdictions you will be above the LRAP max. My point is, read the fine print before you decide to ignore the future debt burden "because LRAP".

End.

Tbh for generic biglaw, I think Cornell for free>>>H on a discount. There just isn't really a difference.

Once you're gunning for prestigious PI, fed gov, clerking, etc., that's when I think it becomes a debate.

Actually not sure about that? I think you have to do reasonably well at Cornell whereas at the t6 and certainly the t3 your outcomes depends less on grades and the name alone does more for you? But honestly I was mostly just answering the HYS vs CCN question.

[OneHandedEconomist]

UMM WAIT, so if I haven't heard back from Yale yet, I can accept the Ruby tomorrow and then potentially benefit from Yale ADMITS defecting by accepting the Ruby themselves? And I could be offered one of their spots or wait listed, after? Am I reading this right?

Yeah just accept the Ruby. Tbh, take the Ruby no matter what happens at Yale.

But....Harvard... :/

I'm curious, how many H/Y grads have to deal with crippling debt for long? Seems like the star power of going there would offset the additional debt you take on (versus a full ride at CCN), not to mention the LRAP programs.

Isn't that the perennial question?

FWIW my take is as follows:
- if you want to do big law, go to which ever school (if your choices are HYSCCN) you like best. Big law job prospects out of all of these schools are great and while the mental burden of carrying so much debt can be tough, you will almost certainly be able to pay it off or at least manage to have a decent lifestyle while paying your loans.
- if you want to do public interest, go to the most affordable option, unless you or your parents are rich. LRAP sounds tempting but from my reading of the fine print of these programs, they all have really funky rules which make you, essentially, a vassal. For example, you might not want to get married because your combined income and/or assets will suddenly be more than the LRAP max. Or, interestingly, while clerking and government work qualify for many LRAP programs, in many jurisdictions you will be above the LRAP max. My point is, read the fine print before you decide to ignore the future debt burden "because LRAP".

End.

Tbh for generic biglaw, I think Cornell for free>>>H on a discount. There just isn't really a difference.

Once you're gunning for prestigious PI, fed gov, clerking, etc., that's when I think it becomes a debate.

Actually not sure about that? I think you have to do reasonably well at Cornell whereas at the t6 and certainly the t3 your outcomes depends less on grades and the name alone does more for you? But honestly I was mostly just answering the HYS vs CCN question.

Duke, Penn, UVA, and Chicago have a higher biglaw + fed clerk rate than Harvard/Stanford/Yale this past year. Obvs a good deal of this is self selection, but still, coming out of these schools gives you a 75%+ chance of biglaw/fedclerk. So from a purely economic perspective, they're worth basically the same as HYS.

Now, that's before we take into account values OTHER than generic biglaw. If you'd prefer a prestigious firm for some reason, points to HYS. Same for prestigious PI, fedgov, etc.

That's why I think you should follow the money for biglaw, follow the prestige for more unicorn-y options.

[NotPanicking]

isn't NOT HAVING DEBT still, well, better

I wouldn't say so. Debt is useful precisely because it allows one to finance something that ends up being far more valuable than the initial investment.

Put another way, I would rather have a job paying $200,000/yr and be $100,000 in debt than be debt-free but only making $100,000/yr.

Granted, the actual numbers are different in the law school calculus; I chose the above numbers to demonstrate the principle I'm describing. If the typical job outcomes and salaries for HYS and CCN are the same, then of course it makes economic sense to take the Ruby at Chicago over sticker at Harvard (basically, we're now comparing $200k/yr and debt-free to $200k/yr and $100k in debt; of course the former is preferable).

Of course, that's also just assuming there's nothing to advantage HYS besides average job outcomes. I'm wondering whether there's extra opportunities or other value built into a HYS degree that makes it more valuable than pure income.

Yeah, and I'm not sure how this plays out in PI work, but I think for big law, the salaries are standardized? As for the last point, yep, that's exactly what I'm agonizing over. And also about whether those extra opportunities are worth an additional $150k. -__-

[NotPanicking]

I'm curious, how many H/Y grads have to deal with crippling debt for long? Seems like the star power of going there would offset the additional debt you take on (versus a full ride at CCN), not to mention the LRAP programs.

Isn't that the perennial question?

FWIW my take is as follows:
- if you want to do big law, go to which ever school (if your choices are HYSCCN) you like best. Big law job prospects out of all of these schools are great and while the mental burden of carrying so much debt can be tough, you will almost certainly be able to pay it off or at least manage to have a decent lifestyle while paying your loans.
- if you want to do public interest, go to the most affordable option, unless you or your parents are rich. LRAP sounds tempting but from my reading of the fine print of these programs, they all have really funky rules which make you, essentially, a vassal. For example, you might not want to get married because your combined income and/or assets will suddenly be more than the LRAP max. Or, interestingly, while clerking and government work qualify for many LRAP programs, in many jurisdictions you will be above the LRAP max. My point is, read the fine print before you decide to ignore the future debt burden "because LRAP".

End.

Tbh for generic biglaw, I think Cornell for free>>>H on a discount. There just isn't really a difference.

Once you're gunning for prestigious PI, fed gov, clerking, etc., that's when I think it becomes a debate.

Actually not sure about that? I think you have to do reasonably well at Cornell whereas at the t6 and certainly the t3 your outcomes depends less on grades and the name alone does more for you? But honestly I was mostly just answering the HYS vs CCN question.

Duke, Penn, UVA, and Chicago have a higher biglaw + fed clerk rate than Harvard/Stanford/Yale this past year. Obvs a good deal of this is self selection, but still, coming out of these schools gives you a 75%+ chance of biglaw/fedclerk. So from a purely economic perspective, they're worth basically the same as HYS.

Now, that's before we take into account values OTHER than generic biglaw. If you'd prefer a prestigious firm for some reason, points to HYS. Same for prestigious PI, fedgov, etc.

That's why I think you should follow the money for biglaw, follow the prestige for more unicorn-y options.

+1

[seeprybyrun]

Yeah, and I'm not sure how this plays out in PI work, but I think for big law, the salaries are standardized? As for the last point, yep, that's exactly what I'm agonizing over. And also about whether those extra opportunities are worth an additional $150k. -__-

My gut tells me yes (hence why I'm still on Harvard's WL and why I'm trolling this thread), but I don't know your personal circumstances or preferences, so I wouldn't presume to say it necessarily is so for you.

[OneHandedEconomist]

We also have to address that a good amount of why we want to go to HYS is the luxury good of feeling prestigious.

[notsonotorious]

isn't NOT HAVING DEBT still, well, better

I wouldn't say so. Debt is useful precisely because it allows one to finance something that ends up being far more valuable than the initial investment.

Put another way, I would rather have a job paying $200,000/yr and be $100,000 in debt than be debt-free but only making $100,000/yr.

Granted, the actual numbers are different in the law school calculus; I chose the above numbers to demonstrate the principle I'm describing. If the typical job outcomes and salaries for HYS and CCN are the same, then of course it makes economic sense to take the Ruby at Chicago over sticker at Harvard (basically, we're now comparing $200k/yr and debt-free to $200k/yr and $100k in debt; of course the former is preferable).

Of course, that's also just assuming there's nothing to advantage HYS besides average job outcomes. I'm wondering whether there's extra opportunities or other value built into a HYS degree that makes it more valuable than pure income.

Yeah, and I'm not sure how this plays out in PI work, but I think for big law, the salaries are standardized? As for the last point, yep, that's exactly what I'm agonizing over. And also about whether those extra opportunities are worth an additional $150k. -__-

I'll repeat what I said before -- if you want to go big law, go where you think you'll be the happiest. This may sound obnoxious, but $150k in the context of a lifetime of big law earnings is negligible and 3 years of your life at this age is something you'll never get back if you're miserable.

[AndromedaGalaxy]

isn't NOT HAVING DEBT still, well, better

I wouldn't say so. Debt is useful precisely because it allows one to finance something that ends up being far more valuable than the initial investment.

Put another way, I would rather have a job paying $200,000/yr and be $100,000 in debt than be debt-free but only making $100,000/yr.

Granted, the actual numbers are different in the law school calculus; I chose the above numbers to demonstrate the principle I'm describing. If the typical job outcomes and salaries for HYS and CCN are the same, then of course it makes economic sense to take the Ruby at Chicago over sticker at Harvard (basically, we're now comparing $200k/yr and debt-free to $200k/yr and $100k in debt; of course the former is preferable).

Of course, that's also just assuming there's nothing to advantage HYS besides average job outcomes. I'm wondering whether there's extra opportunities or other value built into a HYS degree that makes it more valuable than pure income.

Yeah, and I'm not sure how this plays out in PI work, but I think for big law, the salaries are standardized? As for the last point, yep, that's exactly what I'm agonizing over. And also about whether those extra opportunities are worth an additional $150k. -__-

I'll repeat what I said before -- if you want to go big law, go where you think you'll be the happiest. This may sound obnoxious, but $150k in the context of a lifetime of big law earnings is negligible and 3 years of your life at this age is something you'll never get back if you're miserable.

Eh, don't confuse "not maximally happy" with "miserable". I'd easily pick the place where I'd be second-most happy if I could go there for $150k less than the place where I'd be most happy.

[NotPanicking]

isn't NOT HAVING DEBT still, well, better

I wouldn't say so. Debt is useful precisely because it allows one to finance something that ends up being far more valuable than the initial investment.

Put another way, I would rather have a job paying $200,000/yr and be $100,000 in debt than be debt-free but only making $100,000/yr.

Granted, the actual numbers are different in the law school calculus; I chose the above numbers to demonstrate the principle I'm describing. If the typical job outcomes and salaries for HYS and CCN are the same, then of course it makes economic sense to take the Ruby at Chicago over sticker at Harvard (basically, we're now comparing $200k/yr and debt-free to $200k/yr and $100k in debt; of course the former is preferable).

Of course, that's also just assuming there's nothing to advantage HYS besides average job outcomes. I'm wondering whether there's extra opportunities or other value built into a HYS degree that makes it more valuable than pure income.

Yeah, and I'm not sure how this plays out in PI work, but I think for big law, the salaries are standardized? As for the last point, yep, that's exactly what I'm agonizing over. And also about whether those extra opportunities are worth an additional $150k. -__-

I'll repeat what I said before -- if you want to go big law, go where you think you'll be the happiest. This may sound obnoxious, but $150k in the context of a lifetime of big law earnings is negligible and 3 years of your life at this age is something you'll never get back if you're miserable.

Eh, don't confuse "not maximally happy" with "miserable". I'd easily pick the place where I'd be second-most happy if I could go there for $150k less than the place where I'd be most happy.

Alternately, I could be miserable anywhere! Do I want an additional $150k to add insult to injury?

[seeprybyrun]

Alternately, I could be miserable anywhere! Do I want an additional $150k to add insult to injury?

Yet another solution: Take the money, and then sue for emotional distress.

[NotPanicking]

Alternately, I could be miserable anywhere! Do I want an additional $150k to add insult to injury?

Yet another solution: Take the money, and then sue for emotional distress.

[Rodgepwnd]

Alternately, I could be miserable anywhere! Do I want an additional $150k to add insult to injury?

Yet another solution: Take the money, and then sue for emotional distress.

Sorry, unrelated question.
I was looking through your profile and thinking, how in the world did you get WL'ed from H and and all those other places? 4.0, 178 plus STEM Ph.D? I got into H with 174, 3.9 and little to no softs. You not getting in is making me rethink my views on this whole admission thing right now.

[seeprybyrun]

Sorry, unrelated question.
I was looking through your profile and thinking, how in the world did you get WL'ed from H and and all those other places? 4.0, 178 plus STEM Ph.D? I got into H with 174, 3.9 and little to no softs. You not getting in is making me rethink my views on this whole admission thing right now.

Have a look at my LSN page. I gave some thoughts about that in a convo with HonestlyThough in the comments there.

[HonestlyThough]

isn't NOT HAVING DEBT still, well, better

I wouldn't say so. Debt is useful precisely because it allows one to finance something that ends up being far more valuable than the initial investment.

Put another way, I would rather have a job paying $200,000/yr and be $100,000 in debt than be debt-free but only making $100,000/yr.

Granted, the actual numbers are different in the law school calculus; I chose the above numbers to demonstrate the principle I'm describing. If the typical job outcomes and salaries for HYS and CCN are the same, then of course it makes economic sense to take the Ruby at Chicago over sticker at Harvard (per my previous example, it's like we're now comparing $200k/yr and debt-free to $200k/yr and $100k in debt; of course the former is preferable).

Of course, that's also just assuming there's nothing to advantage HYS besides average job outcomes. I'm wondering whether there's extra opportunities or other value built into a HYS degree that makes it more valuable than pure income.

i always like your evaluations

[HonestlyThough]

Duke, Penn, UVA, and Chicago have a higher biglaw + fed clerk rate than Harvard/Stanford/Yale this past year. Obvs a good deal of this is self selection, but still, coming out of these schools gives you a 75%+ chance of biglaw/fedclerk. So from a purely economic perspective, they're worth basically the same as HYS.

Now, that's before we take into account values OTHER than generic biglaw. If you'd prefer a prestigious firm for some reason, points to HYS. Same for prestigious PI, fedgov, etc.

That's why I think you should follow the money for biglaw, follow the prestige for more unicorn-y options.

This. Those statistics also lack nuance, hence the value of prestige for unicorn govt and PI. "fed clerk rate" doesn't break out who is going to the TOP fed clerking positions, and there's a big difference in post-clerk outcomes depending on where (and under whom) you clerk

For me, I expect my career to have some weird leaps and odd transitions and breaks (whattup, having children), so I think having a very prestigious degree will help me skate through changes (etc.) that I might not otherwise have a shot at pulling off

[GorillaWarfare]

We also have to address that a good amount of why we want to go to HYS is the luxury good of feeling prestigious.

Is it really a luxury though? Name recognition is a real thing and a lot of people I have spoken to reluctantly admit that what school you went do heavily contributes to the impression people have of you. The difference between Y/H/S and other top-tier schools might not be apparent right after graduation, when employment opportunities are great at all school. But what happens six years down the road, when you are fighting for a promotion or looking to transition to a new PA or firm?

I have to think the prestige counts for something significant, even if we can't put a dollar amount on it. This has certainly been the experience with my undergrad institution.

[GorillaWarfare]

so I think having a very prestigious degree will help me skate through changes (etc.) that I might not otherwise have a shot at pulling off

You hit the nail on the head. The name-rec becomes a real factor about 3 years after law school, where careers become more specialized and people starting exploring new opportunities. I really think having a prestigious degree will make life after law easier. Getting a JD doesn't mean you will practice law for the rest of your life and the name rec of HLS or YLS is something that speaks for itself to non-law folks. Thats my take, at least

[HonestlyThough]

so I think having a very prestigious degree will help me skate through changes (etc.) that I might not otherwise have a shot at pulling off

You hit the nail on the head. The name-rec becomes a real factor about 3 years after law school, where careers become more specialized and people starting exploring new opportunities. I really think having a prestigious degree will make life after law easier. Getting a JD doesn't mean you will practice law for the rest of your life and the name rec of HLS or YLS is something that speaks for itself to non-law folks. Thats my take, at least

agreed. Yale or harvard next to "jd" will get my resume a look nearly anywhere. that's priceless when you're trying to rejoin the workforce or change fields

[acz26]

so I think having a very prestigious degree will help me skate through changes (etc.) that I might not otherwise have a shot at pulling off

You hit the nail on the head. The name-rec becomes a real factor about 3 years after law school, where careers become more specialized and people starting exploring new opportunities. I really think having a prestigious degree will make life after law easier. Getting a JD doesn't mean you will practice law for the rest of your life and the name rec of HLS or YLS is something that speaks for itself to non-law folks. Thats my take, at least

I've heard a lot of people over the past couple of years group H and Y together without including Stanford...Any thoughts on whether the Stanford law degree carries less universal weight outside the legal profession ?

[HonestlyThough]

so I think having a very prestigious degree will help me skate through changes (etc.) that I might not otherwise have a shot at pulling off

You hit the nail on the head. The name-rec becomes a real factor about 3 years after law school, where careers become more specialized and people starting exploring new opportunities. I really think having a prestigious degree will make life after law easier. Getting a JD doesn't mean you will practice law for the rest of your life and the name rec of HLS or YLS is something that speaks for itself to non-law folks. Thats my take, at least

I've heard a lot of people over the past couple of years group H and Y together without including Stanford...Any thoughts on whether the Stanford law degree carries less universal weight outside the legal profession ?

I think it depends on where. In California, I think it absolutely does. Elsewhere, I'm not so sure.

[OneHandedEconomist]

Cmon wave